Tottenham Riots

A feeling of disengagement from society is, of course, not a good environment to grow up in. But that in no way excuses excuses such evil acts, nor does it explain them because it is not enough, as again I would point to the large number of people in the same situation who do NOT commit such acts as proof of this. There is something wrong with the people involved, and that was NOT done to them by society.

Furthermore, whilst there are genuine economic and political issues, many of those who think that they have no stake in society are simply wrong, and are bent that way by their selfish attitude that gives them a false sense of entitlement. The same sense that makes them want to go out and loot a tv.

By far, the primary issue here is personal responsibility. It must not be ignored as a factor.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Again, the 'situation' is not 'explained' by evil.

But the acts they are committing ARE evil, no two ways around it and pussyfooting around that is a waste of time and blinds you to the issues.

We absolutely must not discount the importance of personal responsibility and immoral acts. 'Society is to blame' has always been a mantra for disaster.

Ah your dark light saber shows your true colours🙂

Correct me if I´m wrong, but didn´t yoda say "only a sith thinks in absolutes". Or something like that. 😮‍💨

It was Obi-Wan and people misinterpreting that line have issues. Goerge Lucas specifically wanted a world of black and white morality, after all.

'All young people in London are evil' is a Sith-style absolute.

"Evil acts must be seen as evil" is not. Some things are just true; the Jedi would want understanding of it, is all.

I agree with Bicnarok and Ushgarak.

This lack of responsibility has lead to people dying now.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
A feeling of disengagement from society is, of course, not a good environment to grow up in. But that in no way excuses excuses such evil acts, nor does it explain them because it is [b]not enough, as again I would point to the large number of people in the same situation who do NOT commit such acts as proof of this. There is something wrong with the people involved, and that was NOT done to them by society.

Furthermore, whilst there are genuine economic and political issues, many of those who think that they have no stake in society are simply wrong, and are bent that way by their selfish attitude that gives them a false sense of entitlement. The same sense that makes them want to go out and loot a tv.

By far, the primary issue here is personal responsibility. It must not be ignored as a factor. [/B]

Everyone should be entitled to a future and hope. I would argue they are a product of nothing being done to them by society, because they live outside of what most would perceive as society and we made it like that. We cannot wash our hands of all responsibility. It's the out of sight out of mind mentality which allowed this to happen. People die on those estates all the time through gang violence, drugs etc. It's O.K. as long as the deaths are on walled estates amongst specific groups?

I agree we should not pretend that social issues do not exist.

But I strongly disagree that we bear fault for their behaviour. That is absolutely NOT so. We bear fault that people have to grow up in poverty. We do not bear fault for the tiny proportion of those people who commit acts like this- that's entirely on them. Again- personal responsibility is key. People may not control their own opportunities, but they are accountable for their own actions.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It was Obi-Wan and people misinterpreting that line have issues. Goerge Lucas specifically wanted a world of black and white morality, after all.

'All young people in London are evil' is a Sith-style absolute.

"Evil acts must be seen as evil" is not. Some things are just true; the Jedi would want understanding of it, is all.

Interesting insight.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I agree with Bicnarok and Ushgarak.

This lack of responsibility has lead to people dying now.

I don´t think it´s about "right". Wrecking other peoples things and spoiling their day because you have a bad life isn´t right I think most people will agree with that.

But on the other hand you have to let people have a valve to let their issues be vented otherwise something is going to go bang eventually.

Exactly. Peaceful protest....marching on parliament etc.
Society has due process.
This is nothing like that.

It makes a mockery of our right to protest.

And you can bet your ass that they will now make further legislative changes that will clamp down on ALL our rights over here to gather en masse to protest after this.

It sets a bad precedent that tptb will most likely use to quell any marches/gatherings that they dont want to hear about.

(Like Royal wedding preemptive pre-protest arrests/Bush/Pope visits/economic protests of the past have already arguably shown signs of)

We cannot wash our hands of all responsibility.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
By far, the primary issue here is personal responsibility. It must not be ignored as a factor.

just to understand, you are saying in terms of what may or may not be root causes and motivations behind these actions, it is important to understand the environment and other contextual issues, but ultimately the rioters themselves are responsible for the violence?

If I have that right, I'm sort of curious as to where you draw that line? a person's own sense of entitlement and responsibility are going to be shaped by these contextual factors all through their lives, such that "independent" and "individual" choices truly reflect the sum total of these people's lives. I get not everyone riots, but even if it is simply just a bunch of people engaged in criminal opportunism, how could that not also be a reflection of the environment these people grew up in?

I know this isn't exactly what you were responding to, but it is a hard line to draw, and I'm interested in how you would do so.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I agree we should not pretend that social issues do not exist.

But I strongly disagree that we bear fault for their behaviour. That is absolutely NOT so. We bear fault that people have to grow up in poverty. We do not bear fault for the tiny proportion of those people who commit acts like this- that's entirely on them. Again- personal responsibility is key. People may not control their own opportunities, but they are accountable for their own actions.

Obviously people will be held accountable for there actions, however your state is not theirs so most likely it will just create more hatred for a system they are disenfranchised from and do not share the same values as.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Exactly. Peaceful protest....marching on parliament etc.
Society has due process.
This is nothing like that.

It makes a mockery of our right to protest.

And you can bet your ass that they will now make further legislative changes that will clamp down on ALL our rights over here to gather en masse to protest after this.

It sets a bad precedent that tptb will most likely use to quell any marches/gatherings that they dont want to hear about.

(Like Royal wedding preemptive pre-protest arrests/Bush/Pope visits/economic protests of the past have already arguably shown signs of)

Peaceful protests etc, work when you have a voice, education and a stake in society. When you live on handouts you don't. Second bit, I agree in the words of the clash..

The judge said five to ten but I say double that again
I'm not working for the clampdown
No man born with a living soul
Can be working for the clampdown
Kick over the wall 'cause government's to fall
How can you refuse it?
Let fury have the hour, anger can be power
D'you know that you can use it?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Which is quite ironic since this is what the rioters have done.

No, they never had a stake in it to begin with.

Lots of people on benefits have protested various things over time. Its not just a middle class pursuit.
It costs bugger all to march with a placard.
(Except the cost of the placard, maybe)
Its your right as a voter/citizen, not as a wealth status.

But an organised march all under one cause.
(These guys are just going out to cause mayhem responding to blackberry calls for terror and looting. Its a loose form of organised crime.)

Sometimes they just dont work at all.
Yet the recourse isnt always to start looting and carrying out violence murder.

Nice lyrics.
They had more than an hour though.
And again theres no cause being uniformally presented.
Just a clusterf**k of various gripes (some pretty real) and excuses with no one coming forward with a cohesive argument.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Lots of people on benefits have protested various things over time. Its not just a middle class pursuit.
It costs bugger all to march with a placard.
(Except the cost of the placard, maybe)
Its your right as a voter/citizen, not as a wealth status.

But an organised march all under one cause.
(These guys are just going out to cause mayhem responding to blackberry calls for terror and looting. Its a loose form of organised crime.)

Sometimes they just dont work at all.
Yet the recourse isnt always to start looting and carrying out violence murder.

Nice lyrics.
They had more than an hour though.
And again theres no cause being uniformally presented.
Just a clusterf**k of various gripes (some pretty real) and excuses with no one coming forward with a cohesive argument.

Agreed people on benefits have marched, thing is marches in recent years have got people nowhere. When Thatcher broke the Unions and changed the laws on striking in support of people, basic human rights to protest were diluted by society. I say again the difference this time is not just the poverty, but the lack of enfranchisement. Undoubtedly some are using it for criminal purposes, it could be argued though that in itself is a form of protest again the haves from the have nots.

The causes are not just gripes they are blades cutting to the very heart of our society. I do not just see it as a Lord of the Flies situation.

No, they never had a stake in it to begin with.

And its not some, its the majority that are in it for criminal purposes with hardly any prior to the riot trying to actually change things. There are no justifications, only excuses.

the problem with people today is that they do not seem to want to take responcibility for thier actions. they will blame what they are doin on society or thier upbringing, or the fact that they live in poverty. this is complete bull!!!

the protest in london may have started out as peaceful but it quickly became an excuse for violence nothing more. it lost all meaning when it became violent, and i dont agree with people who say that that is the only way these people can be heard. it isnt. whats more if they believe that then they are completly off their rocker! they are just seen as oppertunistic yobs, going around terrorising comunities!

three people have already died in birmingham as copy cat riots are sweeping the country! what possible justification can there be for this!

I'm really curious here, why do you all see personal responsibility and individual choice as being a product of people's context and circumstance?

Like, behaviour isn't motivated by one or the other, right? Both are entirely dependent on the other, and I really can't imagine where you would draw the line between the two?

Its insane really when you think about it, in this video they are steeling flat screen TV´s and walking of with them, I mean its not going to look suspicious is it when they leave the main area heading home with an unpacked flat screen with them?

YouTube video

there are good videos from the Toronto G20 riots where you see a guy looting a store, another protester tackles the guy and puts the merchandise back.

there are no excuses for looting. even if you try to tie some idiot class warfare narrative to it, the people looting are only taking money from other middle class people who work in those stores, and creating business for insurance companies, and allowing major corporations to make money off the damaging.

This shit reminds me of New Kids Turbo.

Originally posted by inimalist
there are good videos from the Toronto G20 riots where you see a guy looting a store, another protester tackles the guy and puts the merchandise back.

there are no excuses for looting. even if you try to tie some idiot class warfare narrative to it, the people looting are only taking money from other middle class people who work in those stores, and creating business for insurance companies, and allowing major corporations to make money off the damaging.

Exactly.