But not the murders/assaults.
And remember also, when attempting to argue that its disenfranchised youth vs their neglectors, that its adults too.
Like the one who is a day care teacher for example who was in court today... And the 40 reported adults who firebombed the Nottingham Police station last night. It's greed, violence when they think the cops are too thinly spread, pure and simple for a lot of em.
"When the cats away...." mentality.
Well the cat has now been given permission to deploy rubber bullets and has a water cannon or two at it's diposal now.
Originally posted by inimalist
such as?
The arguments usually go that these guys dont have any stake in society so they dont care if it crashes and burns. if we give them a stake in it then they are literally destroying their own future and their own livelihood and houses etc. I think that's not entirely untrue. It isn't enough to give some of them a stake in it because they are wholly irrational and have been broken. Those have been made that way; not born- made, they have been broken. I have faith in the fact that anyone can be rehabilitated and brought back into society. i saw them in Lewisham on the way home, they weren't thinking. They were truly broken. I don't know how you can recover from that, I do know we have to try it. In reality all that happened was broken people saw a weakness in their restraint and were let loose. They were made by excessive legislation, police brutality, beaurocracy, lack of male role models, educational misandry, intellectual underdevelopment etc. The result is they are broken and the only reason this doesn't happen every day is because they are afraid and locked in and feel like they cant get away with it. Some others were were opportunistic criminals for them their is no excuse. Someone on here said something about low class thugs they are certainly that and it's because we have terrible social mobility in the U.K. they will remain low class thugs and so will their children and their children's children if nothing is done.
What about the family businesses theyve smashed and torched?
And the people killed in their rampages?
Is it right that cause they are "broken" that they should make other people the same way?
I hear you about the over legislation, bureaucracy that we ALL have had to live with.
I say there are maybe 'reasons': But not excuses.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
What about the family businesses theyve smashed and torched?
And the people killed in their rampages?Is it right that cause they are "broken" that they should make other people the same way?
I hear you about the over legislation, bureaucracy that we ALL have had to live with.
I say there are maybe 'reasons': But not excuses.
Of course they shouldn't make other people the same way, although I'd rather think of it as justification than an excuse. Yes we all have to live with legislation etc, it obviously has far more relevance to you if you have a stake in society. Otherwise it's just another word you don't understand.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
The arguments usually go that these guys dont have any stake in society so they dont care if it crashes and burns. if we give them a stake in it then they are literally destroying their own future and their own livelihood and houses etc. I think that's not entirely untrue. It isn't enough to give some of them a stake in it because they are wholly irrational and have been broken. Those have been made that way; not born- made, they have been broken. I have faith in the fact that anyone can be rehabilitated and brought back into society. i saw them in Lewisham on the way home, they weren't thinking. They were truly broken. I don't know how you can recover from that, I do know we have to try it. In reality all that happened was broken people saw a weakness in their restraint and were let loose. They were made by excessive legislation, police brutality, beaurocracy, lack of male role models, educational misandry, intellectual underdevelopment etc. The result is they are broken and the only reason this doesn't happen every day is because they are afraid and locked in and feel like they cant get away with it. Some others were were opportunistic criminals for them their is no excuse. Someone on here said something about low class thugs they are certainly that and it's because we have terrible social mobility in the U.K. they will remain low class thugs and so will their children and their children's children if nothing is done.
ok, but what justifies their actions?
certainly you don't think simply being disillusioned with the system is justification enough to burn down a police station or rob innocent people, do you?
Originally posted by inimalist
ok, but what justifies their actions?certainly you don't think simply being disillusioned with the system is justification enough to burn down a police station or rob innocent people, do you?
It would not be enough justification for you having lived the life you lead and been exposed to the things you have been exposed to, but for someone growing up on state handouts with no hope of a job, constantly arrested for the colour of their skin, who has seen people they know die in Police custody, has what they can't have rubbed in there faces by a society that ignores them and pretends they don't exist etc. It might be.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
It would not be enough justification for you having lived the life you lead and been exposed to the things you have been exposed to, but for someone growing up on state handouts with no hope of a job, constantly arrested for the colour of their skin, who has seen people they know die in Police custody, has what they can't have rubbed in there faces by a society that ignores them and pretends they don't exist etc. It might be.
so you can't justify it in a meaningful way?
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
But not the murders/assaults.And remember also, when attempting to argue that its disenfranchised youth vs their neglectors, that its adults too.
Like the one who is a day care teacher for example who was in court today... And the 40 reported adults who firebombed the Nottingham Police station last night. It's greed, violence when they think the cops are too thinly spread, pure and simple for a lot of em.
"When the cats away...." mentality.
Well the cat has now been given permission to deploy rubber bullets and has a water cannon or two at it's diposal now.
Yeah, the People who firebombed the Police station hate the Police, having studied at Nottingham University and lived on the Meadows estate, I can tell you many people in Nottingham hate the Police and some have solid reasons. The 'cat' has always had the water cannon option and both it and plastic bullets will not work against people already running away, both are for crowd dispersal.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Of course they shouldn't make other people the same way, although I'd rather think of it as justification than an excuse. Yes we all have to live with legislation etc, it obviously has far more relevance to you if you have a stake in society. Otherwise it's just another word you don't understand.
An awful lot seem to know that that is why weed and drugs possession/usage is ruled against under legislative law, rather than common law for example.
Any of them nicked for possession then would find themselves feeling the relevance, or motoring offences etc etc
(Basically any force-of-law they incur the wrath of that is based on an act, rather than outright law.)
So it seems to be pretty relevant to them still, I'd say.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
An awful lot seem to know that that is why weed and drugs possession/usage is ruled against under legislative law, rather than common law for example.
Any of them nicked for possession then would find themselves feeling the relevance, or motoring offences etc etc
(Basically any force-of-law they incur the wrath of that is based on an act, rather than outright law.)So it seems to be pretty relevant to them still, I'd say.
Oh, they know what is expected of them, this does not mean they buy into it as a world view, in fact it obviously means the opposite and in the physical sense the weight of the law is relevant in the short term no doubt. Does it stop their world view, hell no, it enforces it. Stop and search for drugs is far more likely if you are black for example.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Yeah, the People who firebombed the Police station hate the Police, having studied at Nottingham University and lived on the Meadows estate, I can tell you many people in Nottingham hate the Police and some have solid reasons. The 'cat' has always had the water cannon option and both it and plastic bullets will not work against people already running away, both are for crowd dispersal.
Well Im sure they hate plenty of people, but do they firebomb them all too in mobs?
Yeah but 6 mice versus the cat might try overpowering the cat, but once the cat starts shooting, THEN the run-away/dispersal is more of a guarantee.
Might be right about the water cannon....
They might only be useful as sentry guarding the stations against like 40 geezers with petrol bombs at a time.
Might come in handy for combating the fire itself too.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
I already have described how they are justified to the perpetrators, you cannot have them justified to you as your perspective is so different and your world view entrenched and inflexible.
no, you have said that there is social inequality, and used that to say "therefore these people are justified in randomly targeting businesses and people".
you haven't described why such inequity justifies violence.
you are mistaking the cause with some sort of moral reasoning. You can say "its not my worldview", but in fact, you haven't described the worldview in which such a moral connection would be justified.
sure, strife + opportunity = violent behaviour, but you haven't explained why that is ok. Why is it ok for those people to attack the businesses of other middle and lower class people? why is it ok for them to attack social infrastructure? not "why did they?", but "why is it ok?" even if you don't think I will agree with it, or that it isn't my worldview (which, sic, anyways, lets not get into that), how do you justify it
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well Im sure they hate plenty of people, but do they firebomb them all too in mobs?Yeah but 6 mice versus the cat might try overpowering the cat, but once the cat starts shooting, THEN the run-away/dispersal is more of a guarantee.
Might be right about the water cannon....
They might only be useful as sentry guarding the stations against like 40 geezers with petrol bombs at a time.
Might come in handy for combating the fire itself too.
The level of hate towards the establishment and the Police in particular in some areas of society is ingrained and far deeper than the sort of dislike you mean.
Batton rounds are really pretty close range and fired from shotgun like devices, they are not automatics etc. the 6 mice scenario is not realistic as the Police tend to deal with disturbances on mass, one against six would probably inflame a situation firing at them and end up stabbed before he reloaded if they were that much of a threat.
Agreed the cannon might put fires out or as a sentry.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Oh, they know what is expected of them, this does not mean they buy into it as a world view, in fact it obviously means the opposite and in the physical sense the weight of the law is relevant in the short term no doubt. Does it stop their world view, hell no, it enforces it. Stop and search for drugs is far more likely if you are black for example.
Well that I dont agree with.
Thats f**ked up and it does happen.
Youre twice as likely to be stopped as a white guy in a metal tshirt and long hair too, as his short haired suit wearing friend might be also.
So is the black guy in question in the hypothetical scenario wearing gang type clothes with hoodie an cap and listening to "Fu** the police" at full vol blaring from his car with lots of smoke coming out the window, or are we talking Bryant Gumble?
Originally posted by inimalist
no, you have said that there is social inequality, and used that to say "therefore these people are justified in randomly targeting businesses and people".you haven't described why such inequity justifies violence.
you are mistaking the cause with some sort of moral reasoning. You can say "its not my worldview", but in fact, you haven't described the worldview in which such a moral connection would be justified.
sure, strife + opportunity = violent behaviour, but you haven't explained why that is ok. Why is it ok for those people to attack the businesses of other middle and lower class people? why is it ok for them to attack social infrastructure? not "why did they?", but "why is it ok?" even if you don't think I will agree with it, or that it isn't my worldview (which, sic, anyways, lets not get into that), [b]how do you justify it
[/B]
yes I have and yes in their minds they are justified as they have no stake in society and these businesses are part of that society. Nobody has said it is O.K. but it is a justification albeit one you can't get your head around.