Darth Vader vs Star Forge Malak.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Difference is that we get to see those powers acted out in detail, and controlled by the audience. The shitty drawing of the DE comics doesn't offer much for visuals.

Revan's (implied) powers are overrated (hopefully, Dre), and his Gary Stu personality and skills are prodigiously awful, but the nature of the character's... character, is still rather open ended, at least until the novel. Revan still has the potential to be adequately (proportionately) downsized. Marek is concretely within canon with two games, novels, and comics under his belt. He's reminiscent of Dragonball Z, and his personality is either A.) angry, or B.) non-existent. He sucks as a character.

How is he overrated? There isn't enough known about the extent of his Jedi abilities. The ones that are confirmed are impressive, in any way you look at them.

And c'mon, you said it yourself- his character is open-ended, because you choose the way you want him to act. It's a major reason why I don't like this idea of a novel. It lets Drew, not exactly the finest writer on the block, determine Revan's personality. Sure, I am really interested in what happens to Revan, but I want to see that in a game, not in a novel.

And Mary-Sues/Gary-Stus are supposed to annoy the f*** out of people, but Revan certainly didn't to me. His backstory prior to KotOR, with him turning his back against the Jedi and his fall to the Dark Side show him as susceptible. And everybody loves a good tale of redemption.

Here's a question, were those starships in DE full-size star ships or models? The shitty visual makes it hard to tell.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Lawl.

I think you missed the point, my flower. Which is so unlike y- 😂 😂 😂

Sorry, I couldn't even type that with a straight face (no gay jokes). uhuh

Lord Lucien
It makes it more noticeable.

Lord Lucien
Were they moving? Pretty (shitty, actually) drawings are great and all, but moving, pretty visuals--with sound!--leave a greater impact. Made all the worse when you consider the point in the SW timeline and the new inconsistencies with powers.

Rather like I hope that the whole of Revan-fanlove isn't the product of emotionally stunted narcissism, I hope that Star Wars fans needn't play exaggerated video games in order to notice how overpowered certain characters and eras are. I like to think they're not retarded.

This suggests that they (and perhaps you, given your defense of them) are victims of a weak attention span and perception to detail.

Lord Lucien
Bane novels sucked. I like saying that.

Agreed completely.

Korto
How is he overrated? There isn't enough known about the extent of his Jedi abilities. The ones that are confirmed are impressive, in any way you look at them.

And c'mon, you said it yourself- his character is open-ended, because you choose the way you want him to act. It's a major reason why I don't like this idea of a novel. It lets Drew, not exactly the finest writer on the block, determine Revan's personality. Sure, I am really interested in what happens to Revan, but I want to see that in a game, not in a novel.

And Mary-Sues/Gary-Stus are supposed to annoy the f*** out of people, but Revan certainly didn't to me. His backstory prior to KotOR, with him turning his back against the Jedi and his fall to the Dark Side show him as susceptible. And everybody loves a good tale of redemption.

Compelling characters (particularly protagonists) need deficiencies, flaws, and weaknesses. If they lack these humanizing traits, they're utterly worthless and boring. So I'm looking forward to the passage that depicts Revan being outsmarted or beaten into a bloody pulp by an enemy. Or perhaps both.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Compelling characters (particularly protagonists) [b]need deficiencies, flaws, and weaknesses. If they lack these humanizing traits, they're utterly worthless and boring. So I'm looking forward to the passage that depicts Revan being outsmarted or beaten into a bloody pulp by an enemy. Or perhaps both. [/B]

Naw. There are tons of characters who are basically flawless who are still somehow compelling. Like good ol' Captain America (who's movie I must see soon).

Korto's right. Gary Stu's are annoying, but not always so.

ready for plageius novel?

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Compelling characters (particularly protagonists) [b]need deficiencies, flaws, and weaknesses. If they lack these humanizing traits, they're utterly worthless and boring. So I'm looking forward to the passage that depicts Revan being outsmarted or beaten into a bloody pulp by an enemy. Or perhaps both. [/B]

Well, I have no doubt Revan will be "outsmarted" and possibly "beaten into a blood pulp" since Drew seems to more or else say it. And I agree, I'm looking forward to it as well. I want to see what can outfox Revan himself.

You have to realize that Revan started as a video game character who then became part of Star Wars canon (unless it is stated otherwise). And his immense popularity (thanks to KotOR's brilliant plot) is what spawned further development on his legacy, including his influence in Bane's Rule of Two. The main video game character, especially in Bioware games, is quite the bad@ss and usually stronger than anyone else. Nobody wants a main character too hindered by flaws. Instead, Bioware made Revan into an Anakin Skywalker 2.0 and gave him an engrossing background that forms the basis of his compelling redemption. Instead of personal deficiencies, they riddle him with countless tribulations (it's the cookie cutter recipe for all the prodigious Bioware protagonists, including Shepard, the Hero of Ferelden, and the Child of Bhaal/Gorion's Ward).

As HK-47 states, Revan more or less lost his sense of humanity by the end of the Mandalorian Wars, and believed too much in "retain the strong, remove the weak." His hunt for the Star Forge, along with the other side quests he agrees to do, rekindles his old compassion for the Republic and its people. So I can't agree with your statement that he lacks humanizing traits. KotOR demonstrates how he regains them.

And he had weaknesses too, the primary one being his love for Bastila. Both Karath and Malak exploited Bastila and used her against Revan.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, Starkillers over-the-top Force powers usage is horrible and makes me loathe the character for two reasons:

1. It's grossly inconsistent with Force usage in the PT-OT eras. We don't see Yoda, Sidious, or Anakin disintegrating stormtroopers en masse or Force choking a baseball team.

2. This inconsistency in power trickles into movie characters by extention, and ruins any level of movie-only continuity by extension. Either we're forced to believe that movie-Jedi and Sith really can use the Force like gods or we're forced to believe that TFU is an exceptionally blurry window into EU and thus should be isolated within itself concerning context.

This is exactly how I feel about starkiller.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Naw. There are tons of characters who are basically flawless who are still somehow compelling.

Uh, no.

And Captain's movie sucked. Hugo Weaving and Stanley Tucci were the only good parts about it.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Nobody wants a main character too hindered by flaws.

Speak for yourself. As someone who isn't engrossed by pedestrian and childish stories with the obvious tropes and cliches, I find flawed heroes compelling. Talentless and inept? No. One can be strong without being the strongest, one can be smart without being the smartest, and one can be great without being the greatest. Characters (specifically protagonists) who are overpowered in any capacity in such a way that there aren't any challenges -- that there isn't the threat of defeat, humiliation, and utter ruin -- are boring, uncompelling, and belong in a Stephanie Meyer novel. It is this element that Drew Karpyshyn quite frankly sucks at and one need only look at the Bane trilogy for ironclad evidence.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Speak for yourself. As someone who isn't engrossed by pedestrian and childish stories with the obvious tropes and cliches, I find flawed heroes compelling. Talentless and inept? No. One can be strong without being the strongest, one can be smart without being the smartest, and one can be great without being the greatest. Characters who are overpowered in any capacity in such a way that there aren't any challenges -- that there isn't the threat of defeat, humiliation, and utter ruin -- are boring, uncompelling, and belong in a Stephanie Meyer novel. It is this element that Drew Karpyshyn quite frankly sucks at and one need only look at the Bane trilogy for ironclad evidence.

I'm not addressing myself or you specifically. I was speaking in general. Bioware's primary gaming market is an audience that frankly only cares about creating the ultimate killing machine and developing this uber build throughout an entertaining plot.

Most video game protagonists usually start off as talented, strong, smart, and great, and by the end, pretty much become the strongest, smartest, and greatest.

Look no further than all of Bioware's heroes if you want proof.

And you're comparing Revan to Twilight trash? Edward Cullen < < < < < < < Revan.

I understand completely why Revan came off the way he did in the video game. It's a vastly different medium and different tactics must be utilized in order to capture the interest of the audience.

What I'm hoping for is Karpyshyn avoiding that entirely in the book.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
I understand completely why Revan came off the way he did in the video game. It's a vastly different medium and different tactics must be utilized in order to capture the interest of the audience.

What I'm hoping for is Karpyshyn avoiding that entirely in the book.

Look, I understand what you were saying before; if you have a character without any flaws or weaknesses, then that individual wouldn't be human and would be quite annoying.

But yeah, Revan couldn't be shown in that manner because he is a video game character, and a Bioware protagonist. As a result, his flaws are minimized, and his prodigious nature is amplified. Yet, it's his story, from rise, fall, and rise again, that makes him really interesting. Not to mention, the game allows players to have him have a sorta roguish personality, especially in his interactions with Bastila and HK-47.

And Drew said he won't make Revan into the killing machine at the end of KotOR; let's see what happens.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Uh, no.

And Captain's movie sucked. Hugo Weaving and Stanley Tucci were the only good parts about it.

Uh, ya-huh!

Well every other person I've talked to says differently including the professional movie critics that I follow. Maybe you just have bad taste.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, ya-huh!

If you're a moron and your taste in fiction reflects that, then I suppose I'd be inclined to agree.

Nephthys
Well every other person I've talked to says differently including the professional movie critics that I follow.

As someone who's actually seen the movie, that gives me a tremendous advantage over you. But I don't blame you for failing to notice, giving all the other ones I have. sneer

Nephthys
Maybe you just have bad taste.

And maybe you just taste bad. uhuh

I think we both know thats just not true.

I have it on good authority (aka the general public and myself) that Rise of the Planet of the Apes is better than Captain America, X-Men: First Class, Harry Potter 7.2, and all other summer flicks.

Normally, I trust some critics. However, after watching the critic-lavished HP 7.2, I lost some faith. So when some of them started dissing ROTPOTA, I couldn't believe it and checked it out for myself. Turns out they were wrong again.

As do I. That doesn't make Captain 'merica any less of a good movie however.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
If you're a moron and your taste in fiction reflects that, then I suppose I'd be inclined to agree.

As someone who's actually seen the movie, that gives me a tremendous advantage over you. But I don't blame you for failing to notice, giving all the other ones I have. sneer

Nah, just like any other character archetype the 'Gary Stu' can be doen well with the right treatment. Superman is a great example of someone who has very few if any real flaws and yet remains endearing and badass at the same time. Besides which the sheer number of people who love the flawless protagonists of Revan, Shepard and his ilk speak for themselves.

Which would actually matter if I was talking about my opinion versus yours. As it is I'm just pointing out that your opinion in very much in the minority, and stands against professionals in the field of cinema.

Nephthys
Nah, just like any other character archetype the 'Gary Stu' can be doen well with the right treatment. Superman is a great example of someone who has very few if any real flaws and yet remains endearing and badass at the same time.

Naturally, you try your hardest to bypass the point entirely. Well done, lover. Your myopia is a sight to behold. (Pun intended.) sneer

First, Superman has two very critical weaknesses oft' exploited by his plethora of enemies. The first is Kryptonite, the effects of which are many and disturbing; the second is his compassion and affection for humanity, the restraint he naturally exercises when dealing with them, and the lengths to which he'll go to protect them. And then there is the fact that there are those (however few) who are capable of simply outmatching the Man of Steel.

Second, the recent shift in preference from Superman to Batman is in part testament to this popular misconception of the Man of Steel: That he is boring and flawless. He's neither.

Nephthys
Besides which the sheer number of people who love the flawless protagonists of Revan, Shepard and his ilk speak for themselves.

There are plenty of people in this world who find characters compelling that you don't, does that keep you from having that opinion?

Nephthys
Which would actually matter if I was talking about my opinion versus yours. As it is I'm just pointing out that your opinion in very much in the minority, and stands against professionals in the field of cinema.

And I'll take the time to point out that an appeal to the majority is a logical fallacy, which you ought to know by now. That certain critics are paid for espousing certain opinions in no way makes the field less subjective.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Naturally, you try your hardest to bypass the point entirely. Well done, lover. Your myopia is a sight to behold. (Pun intended.) sneer

First, Superman has two very critical weaknesses oft' exploited by his plethora of enemies. The first is Kryptonite, the effects of which are many and disturbing; the second is his compassion and affection for humanity, the restraint he naturally exercises when dealing with them, and the lengths to which he'll go to protect them. And then there is the fact that there are those (however few) who are capable of simply outmatching the Man of Steel.

Second, the recent shift in preference from Superman to Batman is in part testament to this popular misconception of the Man of Steel: That he is boring and flawless. He's neither.

If we could talk for once without petty insults and sneer smilies that would be great Gid.

Kyrptonite? Really? How the hell does that stop him from being a Gary Stu? Especially when its frequently used to show him overcoming it with his legendary willpower. Hell, he's resistent to it now iirc. Its a plot device and a 'weakness' in the same way that Bella Swan is 'plain' or various Mary Stu's are 'clumsy.'

And there are those who are capable of outmatching Revan. I seem to recall that Revan was at one point stripped naked and tortured while completely helpless. And then a few minutes later almost gets gutted by Malak in a duel, nottomention when Malak almost killed him before the game even started as well as his fall to the darkside and conversion by the Emperor.

There are plenty of people in this world who find characters compelling that you don't, does that keep you from having that opinion?

Erm, what? Thats what I'm arguing. You're saying that characters must have flaws or be objectively weak and boring, unless you've seriously misrepresented your case.

And I'll take the time to point out that an appeal to the majority is a logical fallacy, which you ought to know by now. That certain critics are paid for espousing certain opinions in no way makes the field less subjective.

Dude, I never said that you were wrong. I just pointed out that a lot of people are disagreeing with you, and that I'm inclined more towards their arguments (as in, they actually have them lol) than yours. Jeez, did a freakin' dog crawl up your ass today or what?

And btw, writing off a point because it contains a logical fallacy is also a logical fallacy. Just fyi.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
How is he overrated? There isn't enough known about the extent of his Jedi abilities. The ones that are confirmed are impressive, in any way you look at them.

And c'mon, you said it yourself- his character is open-ended, because you choose the way you want him to act. It's a major reason why I don't like this idea of a novel. It lets Drew, not exactly the finest writer on the block, determine Revan's personality. Sure, I am really interested in what happens to Revan, but I want to see that in a game, not in a novel.

And Mary-Sues/Gary-Stus are supposed to annoy the f*** out of people, but Revan certainly didn't to me. His backstory prior to KotOR, with him turning his back against the Jedi and his fall to the Dark Side show him as susceptible. And everybody loves a good tale of redemption.

I want the novel (and even TOR, kinda) for two reasons:

1.) I don't like such a major and active figure in the mythos to be so unknown. I want his story completed.

2.) It would make him more likeable. KotOR I made him a superstar that defied authority, saved the galaxy, but was corrupted by the Dark and turned to evil. KotOR II, via Kreia (mostly) turned him in to a super messiah. He never really fell to the Dark, it was all a sacrifice to save the galaxy, he could corrupt Jedi en masse to his cause. Super powered, super awesome, super f*cking everything. He probably dueled people with his Lightning Cock too, that's how f*cking amazing KotOR II made him out. I want him downgraded to an amazing man, not this demi-god.

Unfortunately, it's Karpy doing it. So in some way, despite his claim, Revan's gonna wind being the Jesus of the Universe somehow.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Rather like I hope that the whole of Revan-fanlove isn't the product of emotionally stunted narcissism, I hope that Star Wars fans needn't play exaggerated video games in order to notice how overpowered certain characters and eras are. I like to think they're not retarded.

This suggests that they (and perhaps you, given your defense of them) are victims of a weak attention span and perception to detail.