Darth Vader vs Star Forge Malak.

Lord Lucien
If TFU, in relation to the OT, is not exaggerated

When did I say otherwise?

Lord Lucien
(and sorely lacking in an interesting protagonist),

When did I say otherwise?*

*Though this is a subjective and defensible point, given that Starkiller's character is one with clearly defined personality traits, one that draws upon established Star Wars elements, and one with strengths and weaknesses.

Lord Lucien
than I'm questioning your own attention span and perception to detail.

I'm not one of the sycophantic morons who believes the OT to be flawless or above reproach, bemoaning the PT and harboring ill intent for George Lucas (who ruined my childhood), masturbating to the melodic tones of RedLetterMedia.

TFU, like everything else, has strengths and weaknesses as a game, as a story, and as a piece of the Star Wars universe. It's hardly perfect, but it's not a complete disaster either.

Well, its not our fault that RLM has such a sexy voice.

Nephthys
If we could talk for once without petty insults and sneer smilies that would be great Gid.

Well, as ever, I was just teasing. But fine, just make sure this mutual respect and kindness thing both ways, m'kay?

Spoiler:
Or I will rape you to death and leave your corpse to rot in the possession of religious and political conservatives.

Nephthys
Kyrptonite? Really? How the hell does that stop him from being a Gary Stu? Especially when its frequently used to show him overcoming it with his legendary willpower. Hell, he's resistent to it now iirc. Its a plot device and a 'weakness' in the same way that Bella Swan is 'plain' or various Mary Stu's are 'clumsy.'

Because for most of Superman's run, Kryptonite was the device that enabled many of his enemies to gain an edge in their dealings with him. It is a vulnerability that deals directly with the plot and serves a deeper purpose; unlike Bella's plainness or clumsiness, which are simply poorly-executed devices to add some desperately needed dimension to an otherwise banal character.

Nephthys
And there are those who are capable of outmatching Revan.

Not established by Karpyshyn and I think this is the fundamental difference in our opinion. I want it acknowledged in-universe that Revan has challenges, foes, and obstacles that pose a dire threat rather than postulation and deduction where we assume that there are characters from other eras who are more capable in a certain regard.

Nephthys
I seem to recall that Revan was at one point stripped naked and tortured while completely helpless. And then a few minutes later almost gets gutted by Malak in a duel, nottomention when Malak almost killed him before the game even started as well as his fall to the darkside and conversion by the Emperor.

Two of these occur when Revan is bereft of his memories or full use of skills (and not by the doing of Malak, but by the meddling of the Jedi Council). The last one is something that remains vague, the circumstances of which are unknown.

Nephthys
Erm, what? Thats what [b]I'm arguing. You're saying that characters must have flaws or be objectively weak and boring, unless you've seriously misrepresented your case.[/B]

My point is that you can cite as many professional critics or Revan fanboys as you like and it doesn't change anything, because I've never asserted that mine was the popular opinion. This is a subjective field and what matters is can we provide reasons for believing the way we do.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Two of these occur when Revan is bereft of his memories or full use of skills (and not by the doing of Malak, but by the meddling of the Jedi Council). The last one is something that remains vague, the circumstances of which are unknown

It has a lot to do with Malak. Revan fell for a trap set by the Jedi and then failed to anticipate Malak's betrayal. The chain of events from there, led to Revan getting horribly injured and mindfvcked by the council.

Originally posted by Lucius
It has a lot to do with Malak. Revan fell for a trap set by the Jedi and then failed to anticipate Malak's betrayal. The chain of events from there, led to Revan getting horribly injured and mindfvcked by the council.

I didn't say it had nothing to do with Malak, but this isn't exactly like Lex Luthor brandishing Kryptonite in Superman's face. The actual lack of skill and memory is because of the Council's meddling. In fact, if anything, Revan's survival is an example of Malak's error.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The fan-love of Revan's supposed power is kinda stupid when there's nothing quantifiable to go on. How he achieved what he did is still an unknown, but a lot of people still prop him up on the ultimate pedestal. Probably, as Gideon theorized, out of unconscious narcissism.

I want the novel (and even TOR, kinda) for two reasons:

1.) I don't like such a major and active figure in the mythos to be so unknown. I want his story completed.

2.) It would make him more likeable. KotOR I made him a superstar that defied authority, saved the galaxy, but was corrupted by the Dark and turned to evil. KotOR II, via Kreia (mostly) turned him in to a super messiah. He never really fell to the Dark, it was all a sacrifice to save the galaxy, he could corrupt Jedi en masse to his cause. Super powered, super awesome, super f*cking everything. He probably dueled people with his Lightning Cock too, that's how f*cking amazing KotOR II made him out. I want him downgraded to an amazing man, not this demi-god.

1.) I think it's best to agree that we don't know the full extent of his power. I won't say he's not quantifiable, because there is impressive evidence (his victory over a Star Forge, Jedi-powered Malak after plowing through the Star Forge's onslaught and fighting a Star Forge-powered Bastila; his victory over two terentateks; his ability to thrive on Malachor V; his incredibly described Force strength; and his victories over Mandalore and Yusanis). It's just not enough at the moment to properly paint a complete picture as to exactly how powerful Revan is.

2.) What do you mean how he achieved what he did is unknown? The Force is strong with him? He must have a high midi-chlorian count? He is a prodigious Jedi?
How is Shepard already that skilled in the beginning of ME that he becomes the first human Spectre? He just is.

Perhaps I didn't understand what you meant by that statement.

3.) You bring a valid point. A novel would eliminate the unknowns about Revan greater than a game. I'd have preferred KOTOR 3 because (apart from being a potentially amazing game) his persona is one that is mysterious. How he acts is up to the imagination. And even if the book might be more definitive, another game would still give us enough concrete feats and evidence of his abilities to better define him, IMO.

4.) Yeah, KOTOR II made him pretty legendary. Which is why I think of him as the shadow protagonist of that game.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
I didn't say it had nothing to do with Malak, but this isn't exactly like Lex Luthor brandishing Kryptonite in Superman's face. The actual lack of skill and memory is because of the Council's meddling. In fact, if anything, Revan's survival is an example of Malak's error.

Malak or the Council, Revan suffered a complete and utter setback. A setback which results in him being reconstructed into a fake person wholly devoted to the Council. Essentially he lost, and a person that doesn't exist won and became the new Revan, and as I've mentioned over MSN, fvck that Revan.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
2.) It would make him more likeable. KotOR I made him a superstar that defied authority, saved the galaxy, but was corrupted by the Dark and turned to evil. KotOR II, via Kreia (mostly) turned him in to a super messiah. He never really fell to the Dark, it was all a sacrifice to save the galaxy, he could corrupt Jedi en masse to his cause. Super powered, super awesome, super f*cking everything. He probably dueled people with his Lightning Cock too, that's how f*cking amazing KotOR II made him out. I want him downgraded to an amazing man, not this demi-god.

I think has been rather well established that he did fall to the dark side and his good intentions were just a weak justification for doing what all Sith do. That and take into account that everything we learn about Revan in KotOR II is from third party sources (Kreia's hardly unbiased, the Handmaiden is just repeating what she's heard, the Disciple is just a historian going on what he's heard, Canderous was established to have a hard on for Revan in KOTOR I.) The only person I would consider genuinely unbiased is GOTO, and all GOTO does is talk about how he admires Revan's strategic capabilities.

It is far more likely that Revan was very good at presenting a larger than life image of himself (a common theme among charismatic military leaders.) He's a badass and indeed, probably an amazing man. Take that and throw in some carefully constructed hyperbole and propaganda and it's not hard to see how larger than live godlike Revan could appear.

Of course, that's my interpretation of things and knowing Drew, I'm probably fvcked.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Well, as ever, I was just teasing. But fine, just make sure this mutual respect and kindness thing both ways, m'kay?

Spoiler:
Or I will rape you to death and leave your corpse to rot in the possession of religious and political conservatives.

Conservatives? The fvck is wrong with you you goddamn psycho!

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz Because for most of Superman's run, Kryptonite was the device that enabled many of his enemies to gain an edge in their dealings with him. It is a vulnerability that deals directly with the plot and serves a deeper purpose; unlike Bella's plainness or clumsiness, which are simply poorly-executed devices to add some desperately needed dimension to an otherwise banal character.

And as I said, the kryptonite factor has been severely weakened currently. And its usually used to show how frickin' awesome Superman is, as in Returns when he proves hs heroic willpower by throwing an entire continent of the stuf into orbit.

But whatever, Superman was merely an example.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Not established by Karpyshyn and I think this is the fundamental difference in our opinion. I want it acknowledged in-universe that Revan has challenges, foes, and obstacles that pose a dire threat rather than postulation and deduction where we assume that there are characters from other eras who are more capable in a certain regard.

I'm pretty sure it is acknowledged when Malak kicks his teeth in the first time they fight and when Revan surrenders without a struggle to Saul. And also, no matter how powerful you are that Krayt Dragon eats you in one hit.

Also Karpyshan wasn't responsible for overhyping Revan at all. Nothing in Kotor one has him presented as a Stu (Well except when Canderous slobbers on your knob when he finds out who you really are), especially when most of the game is spent trying to avoid a straight fight with the Sith for as long as possible. Its only in Kotor 2 that Avellone creates the Cult of Personality and characters specifically talkk about how fricking awesome Revan is.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Two of these occur when Revan is bereft of his memories or full use of skills (and not by the doing of Malak, but by the meddling of the Jedi Council). The last one is something that remains vague, the circumstances of which are unknown.

We never see Revan with his memories or skills though, so I don't see how you can say thats a mitigating factor. And what about when Malak fires on his ship? That was a major oversight on Revans part imo.

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
My point is that you can cite as many professional critics or Revan fanboys as you like and it doesn't change anything, because I've never asserted that mine was the popular opinion. This is a subjective field and what matters is can we provide reasons for believing the way we do.

And I did. The professional critics were my reasons and you apparantly had a problem with that. You on the other hand just claimed that it sucked and then jumped on my when I said that wasn't what I had heard.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien.
2.) It would make him more likeable. KotOR I made him a superstar that defied authority, saved the galaxy, but was corrupted by the Dark and turned to evil.

Not really. Theres never anything to my knowledge in Kotor 1 that glorifies Revan or makes him out to be anythingn other than a re-tread of the tired Exar Kun archetype. A Jedi who was arrogant and thought he could use the darkside without getting corrupted but ultimately succummed. You never hear anyone defend Revan like they do in Kotor 2 and in fact this was what motivated Avellone to go with that angle there because he thought it was a wasted opportunity that you couldn't.

You know... if Bastilla and Malak had their force-combat boosted simply by being on the Star Forge, would Revan as well, have had his ability boosted? Every single force-sensitive place we have ever encountered boosts everyone around it, not just one or two of the protagonists.

Originally posted by truejedi
You know... if Bastilla and Malak had their force-combat boosted simply by being on the Star Forge, would Revan as well, have had his ability boosted? Every single force-sensitive place we have ever encountered boosts everyone around it, not just one or two of the protagonists.

I kind of figured the Star Forge is the space station equiv to say Korriban, dark side friendly.

Nephthys
Conservatives? The fvck is wrong with you you goddamn psycho!

It pleases me that you underestimate my depravity.

Nephthys
And as I said, the kryptonite factor has been severely weakened currently.

Me
Because for most of Superman's run, Kryptonite was the device that enabled many of his enemies to gain an edge in their dealings with him.

Have no fear; in comics, nothing is permanent. Kryptonite's lethality shall return.

Nephthys
And its usually used to show how frickin' awesome Superman is, as in Returns when he proves hs heroic willpower by throwing an entire continent of the stuf into orbit.

You're leaving out a couple of key facts: (1) Lacing the island with kryptonite was a cunning tactic on Lex's part that evened the playing field with Superman. When he landed, Superman was horribly beaten and outmatched by Lex's thugs and mortally wounded by Lex himself. (2.) The effort of hurling the island into space nearly kills him.

If anything, this serves my point well: Kryptonite was a plot device that enabled Lex to gain the upper hand, to thoroughly dominate Superman and nearly kill him. The audience saw that Superman's efforts weren't easy and that he could very easily have died; the Man of Steel crushed by a petty criminal.

Nephthys
But whatever, Superman was merely an example.

no u

Nephthys
I'm pretty sure it is acknowledged when Malak kicks his teeth in the first time they fight and when Revan surrenders without a struggle to Saul. And also, no matter how powerful you are that Krayt Dragon eats you in one hit.

I mean in the gorram frakkin' book.

Nephthys
Also Karpyshan wasn't responsible for overhyping Revan at all. Nothing in Kotor one has him presented as a Stu (Well except when Canderous slobbers on your knob when he finds out who you really are),

Bingo.

And don't forget Bane's masturbation of him in Path of Destruction.

Nephthys
We never see Revan with his memories or skills though, so I don't see how you can say thats a mitigating factor. And what about when Malak fires on his ship? That was a major oversight on Revans part imo.

Agreed on Malak's treachery. I can only hope for a passage that details Revan's embarrassment and insecurity at being outfoxed by such a brute.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
KotOR II, via Kreia (mostly) turned him in to a super messiah. He never really fell to the Dark, it was all a sacrifice to save the galaxy, he could corrupt Jedi en masse to his cause.

I actually loved that about KotOR II. It made Revan move away from the cliched fallen Jedi and he became something new someithing unique and exciting. I really hope the novel goes with this angle.

However, he did fall to the dark side. Yes, he intentionaly did so but he still fell or at least Kreia believes so. And as KotOR II shows Revan was incredibly dark. According to Kriea, Revan knew what was going to happen at Malachor V and did it intentionaly to cause the massive disturbance. HK-47 also states that he used Malchor V to "clean house" bascially killing most of the Jedi and Soilders who would not follow him into Sithhood. Furthermore, he raized much of Telos simply to send a message to the Jedi. And of course he created the Sith Assassins and Jedi hunters to corrupt, kill, and demoralize the Jedi so he basically started the shadow war against the Jedi. Yeah, the guy was pretty damn twisted.

Originally posted by ares834
I actually loved that about KotOR II. It made Revan move away from the cliched fallen Jedi and he became something new someithing unique and exciting. I really hope the novel goes with this angle.

👆

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
When did I say otherwise?

When did I say otherwise?*

*Though this is a subjective and defensible point, given that Starkiller's character is one with clearly defined personality traits, one that draws upon established Star Wars elements, and one with strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not one of the sycophantic morons who believes the OT to be flawless or above reproach, bemoaning the PT and harboring ill intent for George Lucas (who ruined my childhood), masturbating to the melodic tones of RedLetterMedia.

TFU, like everything else, has strengths and weaknesses as a game, as a story, and as a piece of the Star Wars universe. It's hardly perfect, but it's not a complete disaster either.

The only Star Wars game I've played that's a disaster is TFU II. Purely judging by story/characters/plot etc., I preferred The Crystal Star. But the first Force Unleashed, while the very definition of average quality Star Wars story, did one thing that irks me---it set a magnificent precedent of "F*ck you, Consistency" toward any more-than-casual fan of the franchise. What I keep referring to as the Dragonball-esque powers of that game are REALLY SUPER FUN to play, but very f*cking irritating when kept in context. And it's for that fact that I bemoan TFU. Good game--it's why I own it. Mediocre-to-Average story.

And Marek is bland. Two-dimensional, and bland. I was never able to give a crap about him in any way. I never thought that the droid comic relief and blind Wise Old Man would be so much more interesting (though not by a helluva a lot).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. Theres never anything to my knowledge in Kotor 1 that glorifies Revan or makes him out to be anythingn other than a re-tread of the tired Exar Kun archetype. A Jedi who was arrogant and thought he could use the darkside without getting corrupted but ultimately succummed. You never hear anyone defend Revan like they do in Kotor 2 and in fact this was what motivated Avellone to go with that angle there because he thought it was a wasted opportunity that you couldn't.

But because it's Drew... f*ck.

Chris Avellone's Existentialist paradigm is still sending rumbles through the SW community.

Darn, my eyes are no longer in the lead.

ok mallak would get powned so bad by vader vader has so much more experince in the force and he dosent show it often because he has his reasons but he would destroy mallkk 7/10 times mallak is strong but to become dark lord he needed revan

So we're agreed, Malak wins.

/thread.

LOL, the polls say otherwise.

Polls are a measurement of collective stupidity, not truth. That's why democracy rules!