Starkiller and Luke versus Kun and Sidious

Originally posted by Nephthys
My own opinion is that the Drain is enough to beat pretty much most combatants. Though I'd also rate his TK really high. The only thing that holds him back is the lack of actual combat knowledge, so we can't rule out him just being blitzed. Though in my own personal opinion I'd say it would be pretty hard for him to be blitzed given his lack of a physical body. It would take either time or esoteric methods to kill him.

I moderately agree. But I think ubers such as Sidious, Bane, Kun, Caedus, and Vader would prevail.

When have Caedus or Vader ever done something as impressive as use the Force on a planetary scale?

Originally posted by Nephthys
My own opinion is that the Drain is enough to beat pretty much most combatants.

Probably, if Nihilus stuns them first.

Originally posted by Nephthys
When have Caedus or Vader ever done something as impressive as use the Force on a planetary scale?

Using the Force on a massive scale doesn't ensure automatic victory in combat.

Think of Bastila. She used her Battle Meditation to help the Republic capital ship fleet destroy the Star Forge. This was on a massive/planetary scale. But that doesn't mean she's better than everyone else.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Using the Force on a massive scale doesn't ensure automatic victory in combat.

Think of Bastila. She used her Battle Meditation to help the Republic capital ship fleet destroy the Star Forge. This was on a massive/planetary scale. But that doesn't mean she's better than everyone else.

Ooh. Well said.

Please. Battle meditation is another thing entirely. Throughout history people have used it to such a scale but they have nowhere near the same level of combat prowess. Battle meditation is not a direct combat ability, whereas the Drain is. Its an innate ability that a few individuals have that doesn't correlate with power.

Arguing that scale has no effect on a persons victory chances is like me saying that just because Starkiller redirected a Star Destroyer it doesn't mean that he can beat Obi-Wan with the Force. Of course it does. Thats power at a level and effect beyond anything Kenobi can dish out or take, just as Nihilus' Drain is above anything Vader and Caedus can do likewise.

Nihilus might win if he stuns them first.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its an innate ability that a few individuals have that doesn't correlate with power.

That's not true, IIRC. I believe it is documented that only extremely gifted Force users are capable of battle meditation.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Please. Battle meditation is another thing entirely. Throughout history people have used it to such a scale but they have nowhere near the same level of combat prowess. Battle meditation is not a direct combat ability, whereas the Drain is. Its an innate ability that a few individuals have that doesn't correlate with power.

Arguing that scale has no effect on a persons victory chances is like me saying that just because Starkiller redirected a Star Destroyer it doesn't mean that he can beat Obi-Wan with the Force. Of course it does. Thats power at a level and effect beyond anything Kenobi can dish out or take, just as Nihilus' Drain is above anything Vader and Caedus can do likewise.

Perhaps, but stating that just because Vader and Caedus haven't done planetary scale Force feats doesn't equate to them being weaker than Nihilus.

Probably, if Nihilus stuns them first.

This.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Perhaps, but stating that just because Vader and Caedus haven't done planetary scale Force feats doesn't equate to them being weaker than Nihilus.

Well it does to me.

Good, my servant, good.

I'm not your servant.

That was actually for Korto, but....

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not your servant.

I demand that you continue believing that.

No.

wait......

Originally posted by Nephthys
No.

wait......

Victory is mine. You can't have it, I have it, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha it's allllll miiiine.

😐

Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Good, my servant, good.

What is thy bidding, my master?

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Perhaps, but stating that just because Vader and Caedus haven't done planetary scale Force feats doesn't equate to them being weaker than Nihilus.

Well, since there's no acceptable power levels or milestones for Force Usage, scale is important. From a common sense standpoint, exerting TK to say, hold together a space ship, lift one from a gravity well, or just eat a planet in the Force (and destroy the surface, ftw) implies cosmic levels of powers.

To put this into perspective, Polaris is shittons weaker than Magneto. No one ever assumes that Polaris will beat Magneto in combat. Also, she can't, because he'd smack the crap out of her without even getting up out of his chair.

From a logical standpoint, if A can use cosmic level Force powers repeatedly (and not just circumstantially) and B has only ever demonstrated small scale, extremely local powers, A appears greater than B and may very well beat B in combat.

Also, I don't get why Vader is ranked so high consistently by you. I think you're taking that midi-chlorian stat and applying it across the board as a universal. They didn't have midi-chlorians pre-PT. For all you know, Revan, Kun, and Nadd were pissing out more in a day than Anakin had in his entire body.

I think one of the LotF novels' inside flap described Caedus as on par with Vader's power, or something. That along with TFU has thrown him up there in many minds.

Vader's biggest problems though revolve around:

1. Nerfed potential. He is definitely weaker than PT-Sidious and by extension, Yoda and Mace.

2. Low showings/lack of varied Force knowledge. Even if his TK is buffed in some cases (i.e. in Jedi Trial, he tore apart a ceiling in a moment of rage, but then again Ludo Kressh turned a 15 foot stone statue into dust similarly), it's still very basic. Meat and potatoes. Vader doesn't employ Sith rituals, spells, freezing, invisibility, battle precognition, Spear of Midnight Black, etc. He also shows distinct weakness/etc. to Force lightning from a high level user.

3. TFU is grossly inconsistent. Marek can obliterate and ragdoll a battalion, but Vader can choke him and HE IS HELPLESS OMFG.

Really? Even Luke's little latch-key brats could block TK, dumbass.

4. He's slow and bulky. The image of lumbering and scary Vader in the OT is iconic, but ultimately less battle ready seeming than the lightning fast standards set by the PT and the games/EU.

5. He has a huge breathing device on his chest. FFS, that's like the big red button on a Mega Man boss. All someone has to do is damage that shit and he's gasping for breath, helpless.

I was thinking of the Z on Putty Patrollers.

Spear of Midnight Black... I had to look that up. No one has used it?

Actually, Kyle Katarn uses it, but in the D20 sourcebooks it's a Sith ability.