Hitomi vs Tifa Lockhart

Originally posted by AngryWorm
Am I to understand that losing is considered an accomplishment now? What kind of nonsense is that? lol

Loz's power doesn't really matter all that much. In a cross-over universe, I don't see Tifa being able to take down Hitomi. Remember, Hitomi doesn't need to kill Tifa, just KO her.

Hitomi has had quite a few trials in her life as well. Things haven't been all peaches for her either.

In what way does it not matter? Tifa held her own against a foe stronger than any anyone Hitomi has fought. Tifa likewise only needs to KO Hitomi, and Tifa's proven durability easily eclipses Hitomi's, same with her strength.

"Trials?" What are you talking about?

Where did I say Tifa got curb stomped? She lost. Ultimately, you can't say that's something worth bragging about. Yes, you can glorify it all you like and say she went down fighting, and that it was close and an evenly matched battle - but she still lost.

You're missing the point. You're trying to compare very, very different universes. Hitomi's accomplishments in her own universe in one on one action exceed those of Tifa's. As a result, Hitomi is likely the better combatant in a cross-over for this particular set up.

Saying Tifa's power eclipses Hitomi's also is just blatantly wrong. Even in Dead Fantasy, Hitomi was portrayed as being the stronger woman. Durability wise, Hitomi is pretty tough as well, probably just as tough as Tifa. Hitomi also has more experience in this environment, and will not be gimped by not having materia.

The KO comment was towards the whole "Tifa took large amounts of punishment and didn't die". Not going for a fight to the death here.

Also, someone compared Loz to Jann Lee. Granted Loz is probably stronger, but they seem comparable if you look at their "feats", an attribute which I'm quickly starting to lose any faith in and I feel is a horrible way of measuring a characters ability.

In a one on one environment, Hitomi wins. Tifa's better suited on a team with access to materia then Hitomi is, not even I will deny that. But with the current stipulations in place, Hitomi is going to win. That's not a slight against Tifa - it's just that Hitomi is better in a one on one. People seem to be forgetting that this scenario seems heavily tilted in Hitomi's favor.

This was something I was going to mention earlier, but Nemebro beat me to it. The argument of Tifa facing stronger competition is an incredibly strong one in this instance. Loz is superior to Jann Lee across the board from what have actually been shown. Even if Tifa lost, neither Jann Lee or Hitomi has the feats to say they could replicate Loz's victory.

Based on what we've seen, Tifa is stronger/faster/more durable. Hitomi might be more skilled but she won't be able to compensate for the physical superiority of her opponent. Well, we can't really prove that she could anyway.

The problem with the "she is ranked higher in her own universe" argument, is that you could argue that Hitomi's opponents are weaker. Akira is ranked pretty high in Virtua Fighter, but Jann Lee would still probaly beat the shit out of him.

I also have to add that Dead Fantasy is not canon and can't be used unless Snafu is allowing that now.

I do understand your point Angry Worm, but it's hard to argue the case against characters who actually have decent showings. I used the argument in the Hitomi vs Asuka because Asuka didn't really have big time feats.

Originally posted by AngryWorm
Where did I say Tifa got curb stomped? She lost. Ultimately, you can't say that's something worth bragging about. Yes, you can glorify it all you like and say she went down fighting, and that it was close and an evenly matched battle - but she still lost.

You're missing the point. You're trying to compare very, very different universes. Hitomi's accomplishments in her own universe in one on one action exceed those of Tifa's. As a result, Hitomi is likely the better combatant in a cross-over for this particular set up.

Saying Tifa's power eclipses Hitomi's also is just blatantly wrong. Even in Dead Fantasy, Hitomi was portrayed as being the stronger woman. Durability wise, Hitomi is pretty tough as well, probably just as tough as Tifa. Hitomi also has more experience in this environment, and will not be gimped by not having materia.

The KO comment was towards the whole "Tifa took large amounts of punishment and didn't die". Not going for a fight to the death here.

Also, someone compared Loz to Jann Lee. Granted Loz is probably stronger, but they seem comparable if you look at their "feats", an attribute which I'm quickly starting to lose any faith in and I feel is a horrible way of measuring a characters ability.

In a one on one environment, Hitomi wins. Tifa's better suited on a team with access to materia then Hitomi is, not even I will deny that. But with the current stipulations in place, Hitomi is going to win. That's not a slight against Tifa - it's just that Hitomi is [B]better in a one on one. People seem to be forgetting that this scenario seems heavily tilted in Hitomi's favor. [/B]

2. This is where your logic fails, accomplishments relative to one's own universe are not relevant to how they would do in another one. Final Fantasy VII is a much more powerful verse than Dead or Alive, signifigantly so, so how they stack up in their own verses is not entirely relevant. But besides, Tifa is not much worse than a Remnant of Sephiroth, and other than Cloud and Vincent, did better against one than any member of the party. Hitomi succeeds one on one against far inferior opponents to Loz. And Tifa's demonstrated strength, speed, and definitely durability are superior to Hitomi's.

3. Then it's a good thing I didn't say her "power" eclipsed it, I said her "durability" did. Frankly, I don't care if Dead Fantasy showed her firing a nipple laser that annihilated all the stars in the sky, Dead Fantasy is not canon, not by any stretch of the word. Tifa's demonstrated physical power IS greater than Hitomi's, unless there is a feat I am forgetting somewhere. The notion that "Hitomi is probably just as durable as Tifa" is blatantly unfounded, Tifa took hits from Loz's gauntlet, which shattered that solid materia tree that was like a hundred feet tall. Hitomi has nothing on that. Tifa has been fighting longer than Hitomi has, and isn't stranger to fighting one on one, nor is she stranger to fighting without materia. It's not as much of a gimp as you seem to think.

4. Tifa took large amounts of punishment without being knocked out. Is that better? The punishment Tifa took is above anything Hitomi is proven to dish out.

5. "Probably" nothing, Loz is faster, stronger, and more durable. He would dominate Jann Lee without any effort. His demonstrated physical attributes are far above Lee's, or any DOA character in every way, except MAYBE Ryu Hayabusa in speed.

Please, do inform me why you dislike using "feats" as a gauge for abilities in a vs. thread?

6. Sure, I guess if you ignore how much stronger and more durable Tifa is, the fact that she has good showings against much more powerful opponents than anyone Hitomi has ever fought, and she is probably faster too, but don't quote me on that one.

Based on "what we've seen" I'd still disagree that Tifa is stronger and faster. Hitomi is more skilled, and I'm sold that she's weaker physically.

I feel like I'm just repeating myself haha. The universe argument is to create an even playing field for them both. Of course the FF universe is going to appear more powerful, but when you do the 'cross over', things balance out. Trying to compare DOA to FF is a waste of time. They're both dramatically different. In the FF Universe Hitomi would lose to Tifa, but in the DOA Universe Hitomi would beat Tifa. If you mix the two worlds together and scale each characters power level appropriately, then consider that Tifa is handicapped, less experienced, equally strong, and has a worse record and more familar to team fights, Hitomi has the edge.

Again, I don't like Tifa's feats. I don't really respect losing, and it doesn't sound like you guys accept the arguments I'm saying either. I can't see someone whose constantly losing in singles competition, regardless of who their fighting, defeating someone whose got the field stacked in their favor and more experienced. I know Loz was powerful, but Hayate is pretty powerful too, and Hitomi is likely around his level (in terms of pure martial arts ability anyway).

I think Dead Fantasy got it right *shrugs*. Tifa is not build to succeed in singles and Hitomi is.

Originally posted by AngryWorm
Based on "what we've seen" I'd still disagree that Tifa is stronger and faster. Hitomi is more skilled, and I'm sold that she's weaker physically.

I feel like I'm just repeating myself haha. The universe argument is to create an even playing field for them both. Of course the FF universe is going to appear more powerful, but when you do the 'cross over', things balance out.

Again, I don't like Tifa's feats. I don't really respect losing, and it doesn't sound like you guys accept the arguments I'm saying either. I can't see someone whose constantly losing in singles competition, regardless of who their fighting, defeating someone whose got the field stacked in their favor and more experienced.

I think Dead Fantasy got it right *shrugs*. Tifa is not build to succeed in singles and Hitomi is.

The FF universe "appears" more powerful because it is more powerful.

Who would win, an average to crappy collegiate wrestler who doesn't win too often, vs. a kiddy league wrestler (Aged like 3-6)? Same principle.

Tifa isn't stronger and more durable. That's your opinion, much as it is mine that Hitomi is stronger and more durable.

The FF universe 'appears' more powerful because of the expansion of it's storyline. The characters in the DOA Universe are pretty powerful and strong as well, they just aren't as flushed out.

If you're comparing Hitomi to a little league wrestler and Tifa as a crappy collegiate wrestler - that's pretty insulting. The implications behind that are completely different then in this scenario, and I don't even think it's necessary to reply to such a ridiculous and moot point.

Again, Hitomi has proven to find ways to win against her opponents. She's not the most physically intimidating girl, but she is more than capable of handing Tifa in this type of environment.

No, Dead Fantasy is not being used. The Tifa/Hitomi fight in Dead Fantasy is based on the director's POV. I want you to come to you conclusion from what we've seen of these to in DOA and Final Fantasy (Disidia included)

Originally posted by AngryWorm
Tifa isn't stronger and more durable. That's your opinion, much as it is mine that Hitomi is stronger and more durable.

The FF universe 'appears' more powerful because of the expansion of it's storyline. The characters in the DOA Universe are pretty powerful and strong as well, they just aren't as flushed out.

If you're comparing Hitomi to a little league wrestler and Tifa as a crappy collegiate wrestler - that's pretty insulting. The implications behind that are completely different then in this scenario, and I don't even think it's necessary to reply to such a ridiculous and moot point.

Again, Hitomi has proven to find ways to win against her opponents. She's not the most physically intimidating girl, but she is more than capable of handing Tifa in this type of environment.

2. No, it "appears" more powerful because in the first game the main villain was crashing a meteor into the planet and was going to drink the life of the planet and become a god. It "appears" more powerful because several characters are proven to be able to casually deflect and dodge automatic gunfire. It "appears" more powerful because it has beings like Omega who can absorb all life on the planet. It "appears" more powerful because Sephiroth can topple skyscrapers with a gesture of his hand. Based on showings and statements, FFVII is a much more powerful verse. You say they are powerful, but we don't see that power, why should I take your word for it?

3. Why? Some characters are just much stronger than others. I'm not even saying Tifa is a better fighter than Hitomi, just that her physical attributes give her a signifigant edge.

4. Why? Because you are arbitrarily inventing some "crossover world" where you are weakening Tifa and discounting her showings so that she can be closer to her level? That's nonsense, it's illogical.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Uh, no, Tifa has better PROVEN showings in strength and durability, as well as probably speed, than Hitomi. If you have something to suggest otherwise, feel free to post a link or direct me to where I may find proof of this, but based on showings thus far Tifa IS superior.

2. No, it "appears" more powerful because in the first game the main villain was crashing a meteor into the planet and was going to drink the life of the planet and become a god. It "appears" more powerful because several characters are proven to be able to casually deflect and dodge automatic gunfire. It "appears" more powerful because it has beings like Omega who can absorb all life on the planet. It "appears" more powerful because Sephiroth can topple skyscrapers with a gesture of his hand. Based on showings and statements, FFVII is a much more powerful verse. You say they are powerful, but we don't see that power, why should I take your word for it?

3. Why? Some characters are just much stronger than others. I'm not even saying Tifa is a better fighter than Hitomi, just that her physical attributes give her a signifigant edge.

4. Why? Because you are arbitrarily inventing some "crossover world" where you are weakening Tifa and discounting her showings so that she can be closer to her level? That's nonsense, it's illogical.

1. Uh, yes. Hitomi is more powerful. Feel free to post something to change my mind. I see no reason that I should have to prove Hitomi's strength advantage over Tifa, and I could post until I'm blue in the face - it still wouldn't satisfy you, so there isn't any point. Prove to ME that Tifa's stronger than Hitomi...

Also show me a one on one that Tifa actually wins... oh wait, that's right - you can't.

2. I'm happy for the meteors crashing into Final Fantasy's world. What does that have to do with anything? DOA has exploding skyscrapers and has powerful entities in Alpha and Omega too. Not that drastically different then anything in FF. Ever see the cutscene of Hayate wrecking all the people shooting their guns? Hitomi beats him. So she's got some speed I dare say. Besides, a lot of that has nothing to do with the scenario in question.

3. Yep. Some characters are just stronger than others. However, Tifa isn't stronger than Hitomi all. The advantage you're suggesting she has here is completely unrealistic. It's close, and I'd even give Hitomi the edge in terms of brute strength, and it isn't just me who thinks that.

4. Hitomi's stronger and a better figther than Tifa, why do you keep slandering Hitomi by suggesting that Tifa is better than Hitomi in her strongest field while singles combat is something Tifa struggles with? That's even more ridiculous. Even without the cross-over "universe" Hitomi would still kick Tifa's ass in this scenario.

Originally posted by AngryWorm
1. Uh, yes. Hitomi is more powerful. Feel free to post something to change my mind. *Shrug*

2. I'm happy for the meteors crashing into Final Fantasy's world. What does that have to do with anything? DOA Crashes skyscrapers and has powerful entities in Alpha and Omega too. Not that drastically different then anything in FF.

3. Yep. Some characters are just stronger than others. However, Tifa isn't stronger than Hitomi all. The advantage you're suggesting she has here is completely unrealistic. It's close, and I'd even give Hitomi the edge in terms of brute strength.

4. Hitomi's stronger and a better figther than Tifa, why do you keep slandering Hitomi by suggesting that Tifa is better than Hitomi in her strongest field while singles combat is something Tifa struggles with? That's even more ridiculous. Even without the cross-over "universe" Hitomi would still kick Tifa's ass in this scenario.

2. No. Nothing you just mentioned has anything next to destroying all life on the planet, and when Ayane destroyed the skyscraper she did, it was a long, drawn out, charged ninjutsu. Sephiroth waved his hand and tore it in half. And so you never played FFVII huh? Sephiroth is the one who used the meteor, using Black Materia, though really, I don't need Black Materia to prove my point: FFVII is a vastly more powerful verse than DOA. The single most powerful entity in the shared universe of Dead or Alive and Ninja Gaiden is the Vigoorian Emperor, who, were we to believe hyperbole, split the world in half, which is impressive, but also as I said serious hyperbole, and is only a legend. We have confirmed feats from the big players of FFVII destroying all life on planets, and even using planets as vessels to travel the stars. FFVII is more powerful, deal.

3. Only if you ignore all the evidence that says Tifa IS stronger. Show me a strength feat from Hitomi, by all means. The difference in physical attributes is not as close as you seem to think, and Tifa has the advantage in all three main areas, strength, speed, and durability.

4. Yeah sure I guess if you ignore that evidence suggests Tifa is superior in every physical way, skill being the only possible area Hitomi outshines her, and even that is not really provable.

1. Interestingly enough, you're doing the exact same thing. You're claiming Tifa is better without any substance to back it up. This argument is just pointless banter and completely non-costructive at this point.

2. I played FF7. It was okay I guess. I'm guessing you have and are an FF fan, which is fine. But I've noticed that franchise fans tend to overrate their characters. I do the same with characters I'm passionate about, but have since started looking more objectively. Being a fan of both Hitomi and Tifa, I'm pretty familiar with what both are capable of. Tifa is fantastic a lot of things, unfortunately, Hitomi is better than her when it comes to using fists.

Anyways, I read up to 'black materia' and stopped, since materia isn't available in this scenario thus making the rest of the paragraph of non-interest to me. This isn't about universe vs. universe, that's a completely different debate. This is Hitomi vs Tifa. You're not looking at this objectively for the scenario, you're looking at the 'bigger picture'.

3. See argument 1.

4. Yeah sure I guess if you ignore that evidence suggests Tifa is superior in every physical way, skill being the only possible area Hitomi outshines her, and even that is not really provable.

4. It's pretty probable, and Hitomi is physically just as capable as Tifa. Read the comments on the Dead Fantasy videos and you'll find that many people agree with that statement.

Look, I'm not trying to be crude, but a lot of the 'Well the FF universe is stronger so therefore Tifa wins' argument doesn't hold up that well, at least with me. Tifa's a great fighter, but not in 1 vs 1. She's lost everytime (I don't care how powerful Loz is, she still lost), and she's use to fighting as a team. Physically they're both about the same, and trying to suggest one is more dominant than the other is fanboyism from both sides. Hitomi is more experienced in this field, which is pretty tough to argue.

In this scenario, the odds are stacked in Hitomi's favor. Tifa just flat out doesn't win, and it's not because she's bad - it's because Hitomi's fighting under her terms, without handicap, and in a familiar zone.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
He is a remnant of Sephiroth himself, that alone makes him top tier in the FFverse.

FF7verse.

We win? 😄

But yeah, Hitomi.

Originally posted by NemeBro
It's not that black and white, stop pretending it is. Tifa didn't get "curbstomped" by Loz, she held her own, took his attacks, and actually held the advantage throughout most of the fight. Compared to Hitomi, who has statements that she did well against fighters who are nowhere near Loz's level.

In what way does it not matter? Tifa held her own against a foe stronger than any anyone Hitomi has fought. Tifa likewise only needs to KO Hitomi, and Tifa's proven durability easily eclipses Hitomi's, same with her strength.

"Trials?" What are you talking about?

Hrm, the thing is, Tifa went from being quick enough to dodge his attacks when he's right in front of her, to being caught flatfooted by his speed when he's halfway across the room.

I think he was toying with her. Even his little distraction of tossing furniture at her doesn't account for how completely he caught her off guard, as she was looking right in his direction.

Originally posted by Snafu the Great
You've seen the fight in Dead Fantasy, but despite how awesome that was, it could have been much better without the handicaps (Tifa - the materia; Hitomi - Hayate and the Mugen Tenshin)

I think it was about as awesome as it could've been, personally. 😄

The 1 vs 1 in episode 3 was a damned near perfect old school kung fu throwdown. I haven't played a single Dead or Alive game, but I just had to back Hitomi as she was stumbling around, blinded by her own blood.

And episode 5 simply made Tifa look badass. And judging by Hitomi's reaction, I don't think she wanted Hayates help... I wouldn't be surprised if Hitomi and Tifa don't end up fighting on the same side at some point in this series.

Originally posted by cdtm
I think it was about as awesome as it could've been, personally. 😄

The 1 vs 1 in episode 3 was a damned near perfect old school kung fu throwdown. I haven't played a single Dead or Alive game, but I just had to back Hitomi as she was stumbling around, blinded by her own blood.

And episode 5 simply made Tifa look badass. And judging by Hitomi's reaction, I don't think she wanted Hayates help... I wouldn't be surprised if Hitomi and Tifa don't end up fighting on the same side at some point in this series.

It is my favorite fight in the series because it is 1on1 and we can easily tell what is going on. I was rooting for Hitomi because Tifa was being a cheap bastard abusing her materia in episode 2.

And I don't think it was her blood that blinded Hitomi but Tifa casting Darkness on her with the materia.

I really like how Monty incorporates the magic and materia into the fights. Square and many others could learn much from him.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
It is my favorite fight in the series because it is 1on1 and we can easily tell what is going on. I was rooting for Hitomi because Tifa was being a cheap bastard abusing her materia in episode 2.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who feels this way. 😄

The Final Fantasy fans are pretty vocal about never wanting to see a FF character look bad, and keep on making excuses for Tifa losing or just dismissing it outright..

It's kind of telling that some fans claim the series stopped being good after the second video, when that's the last time FF had a clear advantage.

And I don't think it was her blood that blinded Hitomi but Tifa casting Darkness on her with the materia.

Yeah, I read that in the Dead Fantasy wiki. Initially thought it was blood, because of some of it dripping on the floor.

I really like how Monty incorporates the magic and materia into the fights. Square and many others could learn much from him.

Yeah, he does magic/materia very well. Episode II stands out, but I like how Yuna's summons also worked..

And it's great how magic is a clear cut advantage, yet pure fighters are still buff enough to hold their own against it. Monty pretty much Genndy Tartakovsky'd them up.

Originally posted by cdtm
Glad to hear I'm not the only one who feels this way. 😄

The Final Fantasy fans are pretty vocal about never wanting to see a FF character look bad, and keep on making excuses for Tifa losing or just dismissing it outright..

It's kind of telling that some fans claim the series stopped being good after the second video, when that's the last time FF had a clear advantage.

Most of these "fans" are the hardcore FF7 fans who believe Cloud and Sephiroth > every single being in existence. Their fanboyism is off the charts and we're better off just ignoring them.

We are all entitled to our opinion, and this includes those retarded fanboys, but the fights are becoming more personal and now have character--case in point Yuna vs Kasumi--which is a lot better to me.

Originally posted by cdtm

Yeah, I read that in the Dead Fantasy wiki. Initially thought it was blood, because of some of it dripping on the floor.

Yeah, he does magic/materia very well. Episode II stands out, but I like how Yuna's summons also worked..

And it's great how magic is a clear cut advantage, yet pure fighters are still buff enough to hold their own against it. Monty pretty much Genndy Tartakovsky'd them up.

I agree about the Yuna fight. I had a nerdgasm when she went Summoner. It was sad how Bahamut was defeated before the mega flare was fired, but the clones were smart about it.

The FF cast is shown to be more powerful while the DOA cast is more skilled.

I just wonder how Rachel will fare against Rinoa because Monty made Rinoa into a haxx0rZ God and Rachel is strong but not that strong or skilled...yet.

Vincent vs Hayabusa will be EPIC

---
BTW have you seen Monty's work in Red Vs Blue?

About DF - I just think its funny that none of the ff villains are being used. Or even the higher tier heroes, like Bartz or Cecil. Monty must be a fan of the newer FF's.
That said, I'm a HUGE fan of his work, and I really like what he's been doing at RvB.

On topic, though. Tifa's fists are said to be as devastating as Cloud's sword in combat. Given Cloud's ridiculous sword feats in AC, that would say a lot about Tifa's strength alone.
Also, the lack of materia gives Tifa a bigger advantage, as materia actually decreases the user's physical attributes when they are equipped.