Zannah vs Maul

Please don't make me do math.

Six square feet is 864 square inches. Imagine a grid of 1"x1" squares. If a raindrop, traveling at whatever speed, appears in even two thirds of those at any given moment, the lightsaber (which is roughly 3 ft by one inch, or 36 square inches in profile) would have to be in 16 different places at once, assuming that every inch of the lightsaber was deflecting water at every instant during the rainstorm. Now consider the probability that the drops are not all perfectly colinear and increase that number. Not consider that the storm is described as consisting of "driving rain" amidst a "howling gale" and increase the number again to account for the much greater profile that the 2 meter Sith Lord has from the side. Finally, increase the number once more to accomodate the additional area that Bane cleared to provide himself maneuvering room; the text says explicitly that he "twisted, twirled, and contorted his body" to evade raindrops... in a deluge, there are no non-threatened locations except those created by a barrier. Bane was clearing an area greater than the exact surface area of his profile.

Thus, we can be sure that Bane is moving at the most absurdly low estimate at a speed equal to 16 strikes per second, and at a more reasonable guess something like 100 strikes per second.

This pleases me.

I think the 'howling gale' part makes it probable that the rain was falling in a diagonal fashion, as wind makes rain fall as such. So for those of you saying that he must of been helicoptering his lightsaber I don't think so. Less silly therefore.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This pleases me.

I think the 'howling gale' part makes it probable that the rain was falling in a diagonal fashion, as wind makes rain fall as such. So for those of you saying that he must of been helicoptering his lightsaber I don't think so. Less silly therefore.

Well now I just feel stupid. Of course that was the answer.

They are real cheap. Clearly, Bane had access and the means. Therefore, he had one.

As stated before, Zannah's fear attacks will be close to useless with Maul's mental fortitude.

Do what now? Unless you're suggesting Maul's mental fortitude was anywhere near Bane's level, he doesn't really stand a chance. As for Bane's rainstorm drill, it was hardly basic training and definitely one of, if not the most impressive display with a lightsaber in the mythos.

Well, I'm not just 'suggesting' that, I'm outright saying it. Maul has nothing he's genuinely scared of. Palpatine forced him to face every fear and conquer it, which incidentally, was the key to breaking Zannah's Sith spell.

In terms of actual will, we've seen Bane flat out lose at the end of Dynasty of Evil. We saw Set Harth, who isn't much to the Sith Lords, claw his way out of the coma. What Zannah's doing is something that can be overcome by fortitude. The entire teachings of the Sith Order was to face one's fears. Maul had all of that literally beaten out of him. We have seen his mental defenses are so grea tthat an Iktochi attempting to read his mind killed himself as a result.

And yeah, that was pretty basic training on Bane's part in the rain. We've seen far more impressive displays of saber feats. Compare Yoda doing pretty much the same thing. Against a clone or droid army. With blasters. That will kill you if they touch you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also if I recall correctly Ruusan does have latent darkside energies to it that she could use for a Naughty Tentacle Attack to utterly butt**** him.

Ambria's Dark Side should be even stronger (What latest Dark Side power did Ruusan have apart from the Thought Bomb, might I ask? And even then, the Valley is just the Force power as opposed to a Dark Side nexus like Ambria)

The tentacle attack has a hideous drawback: She is literally incapable of defending herself during it. It won't take a smart and skilled enemy to realize he has to to avoid the tentacles and behead Zannah.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, I'm not just 'suggesting' that, I'm outright saying it. Maul has nothing he's genuinely scared of. Palpatine forced him to face every fear and conquer it, which incidentally, was the key to breaking Zannah's Sith spell.

A. Sidious is on the same level as Zannah in the category of sith illusions

and/or

B. Maul has seen what Bane has seen on the level of said illusions,

then there is nothing to discuss. While Maul is mentally tough, he hasn't shown to be on the same level as Bane, so if Bane went down, Maul goes down harder.

In terms of actual will, we've seen Bane flat out lose at the end of Dynasty of Evil. We saw Set Harth, who isn't much to the Sith Lords, claw his way out of the coma. What Zannah's doing is something that can be overcome by fortitude. The entire teachings of the Sith Order was to face one's fears. Maul had all of that literally beaten out of him. We have seen his mental defenses are so grea tthat an Iktochi attempting to read his mind killed himself as a result.

And yeah, that was pretty basic training on Bane's part in the rain. We've seen far more impressive displays of saber feats. Compare Yoda doing pretty much the same thing. Against a clone or droid army. With blasters. That will kill you if they touch you. [/B]

I'm sorry, you're now grading a feat based on the potential danger of failing said feat? That's a terrible comparison to make, LS. Succeeding at a feat you would die as a result of failure doesn't make the feat more impressive than another feat. It shows his skill with a saber at best, but on a level of technical display, what Bane did was much more impressive.

Also IIRC Ambria's "Nexus" is locked away and untouchable.

Edit: From Wookie- Thon felt the presence of a number of dark side spirits, way out in the distance beyond his ship's scanners. Thon followed the dark presence until he arrived on Ambria, where he was immediately attacked by the malevolent spirits of the Sith. The Tchuukthai Jedi Master managed to repel them for a time, though soon his stamina became depleted, and he could no longer hold off the dark forces. However, Thon still had a plan, and led the spirits to Lake Natth; he swam out to the center of the lake, and allowed the dark spirits to consume him. However, with one final effort, the mysterious Jedi Master ensnared his foes in a wave of light side energy, confining them the murky waters at the bottom of Lake Natth. The sinister spirits were furious, and often possessed the herds of Hssiss which frequented the lake, and attacked any visitors to the planet. Although they had not been completely defeated, the dark side spirits on Ambria had finally been contained. He unpossessed himself?

LS, you said there are better feats than the rain-blocking feat? I'm going to just have to disagree without more information. Z's post earlier nailed.

Ganner Rhsyode and Luke Skywalker's ass kicking of the Vong come to mind.

Originally posted by ares834
Ganner Rhsyode and Luke Skywalker's ass kicking of the Vong come to mind.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
This is an incredibly poor rationalization on your part, LS. You have a habit of playing psychologist to fictional characters to suit your arguments, and it never works out well. Now, unless:

A. Sidious is on the same level as Zannah in the category of sith illusions

I see no reason a vastly superior Sith sorcerer with vastly greater experience, materials, knowledge, power and skill would be inferior to Zannah.

and/or

B. Maul has seen what Bane has seen on the level of said illusions,

On 'the level?' Zannah conjures it from her victim's psyche.
Furthermore, it is stated in DoE that the defense is strength of will. Bane himself has absolutely no talent with the art, hence...

We can see Bane's method escape here:

[b]But he had conquered these
fears long ago. He had turned his fear of his abusive father into anger and
hate—the tools that had given him the strength to endure and eventually
escape his life on Apatros.
He knew how to defeat these demons, and he struck back. Unleashing a
primal scream, he channeled his terror into pure rage and lashed out with
the dark side. It tore through the swarm in a burst of searing violet light,
utterly obliterating them.
* * *

This is something Maul learned to do on a practically daily basis.

then there is nothing to discuss. While Maul is mentally tough, he hasn't shown to be on the same level as Bane, so if Bane went down, Maul goes down harder.

Bane did not 'go down' to her initial sorcery. MAul has no reason to use essence transfer.
Moreover, Maul's mental fortitude surpasses belief. He's already a tough specimen by virtue of being a zabrak. Added to his Sith training? When Palpatine trained Maul, he forced him to confront every fear he ever had and conquer it. Any display of gear Maul ever showed was beaten out of him. His final taste was overcoming fear of Palpatine via rage.

Once again, there's no proof Maul possesses the fortitude of Bane. Bane lost flat out because Zannah overpowered his will and he was half beaten from the tendrils, so logic suggests Maul goes down swinging. Also, not sure how you can compare that Iktochi to Cognus, who very nearly fought Bane to a standstill without any formal jedi/sith training.

As I recall, that was not remotely a fair battle akin to, say, Bane vs. Kas'im. She had a lot of cover thanks to all the other soldiers there, she rigged up flashbangs previously, and had an element of surprise to blocking his force connection. It's noted when Bane recovered to actively make it a fair fight, Cognus immediately let others take the heat. the most she got was a glancing strike, and if Bane knew about the neurotoxin, she never would've gotten that.

And 'no proof' Maul possesses that level of fortitude? Based upon what?

Moreover, citing how an assassin with no formal training nearly fought Bane to a standstill is more a massive mark against Bane than anything.

I'm sorry, you're now grading a feat based on the potential danger of failing said feat? That's a terrible comparison to make, LS. Succeeding at a feat you would die as a result of failure doesn't make the feat more impressive than another feat. It shows his skill with a saber at best, but on a level of technical display, what Bane did was much more impressive. [/B]

Well, actually it does. When you have a veritable storm of lasers aiming at you from every direction and deflect every single one so that not a single one touches you?

I'll remind you that even Johun Othone was able to follow Bane's movements with a saber.

I have a truly marvelous proof for the superiority of this feat that the margins of this post are too slim to contain.

off to dinner cya!

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Well, actually it does. When you have a veritable storm of lasers aiming at you from every direction and deflect every single one so that not a single one touches you?

The USA today weather resource page gives an estimated number of raindrops
for an average thunderstorm as "around 1,620 trillion."

In arriving at this number they used some simple calculations and relied on
some basic assumptions, based in part on information from the National
Severe Storms Laboratory. Links for both are below.
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/waskrain.htm
http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/primer/tstorm/tst_basics.html

Your question is similar to one asked a few years ago on Google Answers,
which was how many raindrops would occupy 1 cubic foot during a
thunderstorm as opposed to a light rain.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/242717.html

Using the answer generated there, i.e."412,700,000 little drops,"

you can
figure the total drops for a given column in a storm. Say a storm was 15
miles wide as in the USA Today example, and 5 miles high (thunderstorms can
actually reach up into the stratosphere as much as 8 miles high). The total
volume would be approximately 390,180,049,332,480 cu. ft. Times 412,700,000
drops per cu. ft. that would equal 1.61027306 × 10^23 raindrops in the
storm.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I see no reason a vastly superior Sith sorcerer with vastly greater experience, materials, knowledge, power and skill would be inferior to Zannah.

On 'the level?' Zannah conjures it from her victim's psyche.
Furthermore, it is stated in DoE that the defense is strength of will. Bane himself has absolutely no talent with the art, hence...

But he had conquered these
fears long ago. He had turned his fear of his abusive father into anger and
hate—the tools that had given him the strength to endure and eventually
escape his life on Apatros.
He knew how to defeat these demons, and he struck back. Unleashing a
primal scream, he channeled his terror into pure rage and lashed out with
the dark side. It tore through the swarm in a burst of searing violet light,
utterly obliterating them.
* * *

This is something Maul learned to do on a practically daily basis.

Bane did not 'go down' to her initial sorcery. MAul has no reason to use essence transfer.

Moreover, Maul's mental fortitude surpasses belief. He's already a tough specimen by virtue of being a zabrak. Added to his Sith training? When Palpatine trained Maul, he forced him to confront every fear he ever had and conquer it. Any display of gear Maul ever showed was beaten out of him. His final taste was overcoming fear of Palpatine via rage.

As I recall, that was not remotely a fair battle akin to, say, Bane vs. Kas'im. She had a lot of cover thanks to all the other soldiers there, she rigged up flashbangs previously, and had an element of surprise to blocking his force connection. It's noted when Bane recovered to actively make it a fair fight, Cognus immediately let others take the heat. the most she got was a glancing strike, and if Bane knew about the neurotoxin, she never would've gotten that.

And 'no proof' Maul possesses that level of fortitude? Based upon what?

Moreover, citing how an assassin with no formal training nearly fought Bane to a standstill is more a massive mark against Bane than anything.

Also, kudos to RH for that incredible display of math skills showing Bane's feat in a more realistic light.

How long is the average storm though?