Battlezone: Voldemort (Quanchi) vs. Yoda (Vos)

Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. It was not meant to be an example, but fair enough.

2. I’m sorry Quan, but your argument above is completely untrue.
Kenobi was sent to Utapau to eliminate Grievous. In that fight, he was hell-bent on destroying the General. Therefore, he clearly wanted that Force Push to wreck the cyborg. I agree with your point that TK can be utilized to surprise your opponent. However, to say that telekinesis is merely to startle and not to incapacitate your opponent is a far-fetched assumption. For example, regular Jedi often use telekinesis to dismantle droids. Read below.

[B]Yoda’s Offensive Telekinesis:

1. Consider Kenobi's offensive TK in this instance. He was able to hurl the Separatist leader 50 feet (more or less) into the air into a metal hanging. The only reason Grievous survived that blow was because of his durable cybernetic armor. Yoda's TK > > Kenobi's TK. If Yoda exerted as much as Kenobi in that instant, the sheer power of such a Force Push in full galore would have crushed Grievous.

2. Let us watch this scene again, shall we?

Offensive TK 1

First of all, you argued that the two Royal Guards were unprepared for Yoda. That’s outlandish because the two watchmen are the Emperor’s bodyguards. They are elite soldiers selected from the military to protect the most important man in the galaxy; essentially, the Red Guards are the Secret Service of the Secret Service. It’s illogical to say they, of all people, are not ready for an attack by someone whom they can clearly hear ambling his way in the corridor towards them. Furthermore, as Yoda enters the room, you see the Royal Guards spring into action, turning and readying their pikes. Simply put, they were prepared.

With an effortless wave of his hand, Yoda throws the two Royal Guards into the wall. You see the point of contact being the center of their backs, right at the location of the spinal column. It’s quite easy to determine that the impact broke their thoracic vertebrae. Symptoms of a spinal injury include paralysis and unconsciousness as a result of nerves damaged in the cord. Mind you, these guards are not simply clad in crimson robes- they have full body armor underneath more advanced than standard military-grade equipment. Therefore, for Yoda to have still fractured their spines while they had such protection is indicative of his offensive TK might.

Your second argument was that, “In any event they were far.far, far below the skill of Yoda/Palpatine and Voldemort here. Most non jedi/sith characters pale in comparison to them so this is another example of this.”

‘Skill’ plays no part in the fragility of the human body. Voldemort is tall and emaciated, almost skeletal. He is physically weaker than an average health human being, and significantly less hardy than a tip top shape Royal Guard. Unlike Yoda, who uses Force Valor to overcome his elderly infirmities and boost his powers and constitution to insane levels, Voldemort doesn’t have any spell to strengthen his body to survive such damaging physical blows. In fact, Voldemort has nothing in his arsenal that can grant him the precognition and metahuman speed, reflexes, and senses to allow him to possibly defend against an instantaneous telekinetic wave.

3. I draw attention to this video again:

Offensive TK 2

If you watch very, very carefully, at 0:03 seconds, you can pick out around nine Clone troopers engaging Yoda (as if that wasn't impressive, in itself). At 0:05, you see Yoda telekinetically crippling/killing one trooper (the Clone doesn’t get back up, similar to the Royal Guards), and at 0:06, you can the animation of him just raising his hand and telekinetically crippling/killing three members of the 501st. This elite legion was fitted with superb armor (Phase II Clone trooper armor); thus, Yoda's offensive TK was brutally effective.

This substantiates the offensive TK that I described immediately above. Furthermore, this example again accentuates how Voldemort, physically weak and without any state-of-the-art protective gear, would be easier for Yoda to cripple/kill with his offensive TK.

4. I have a feeling you’ll attempt to refute my earlier points by commenting how Yoda’s Force Push against Sidious prior to the actual fighting didn’t cripple/kill the Dark Lord of the Sith. Simply put, Yoda wanted an ‘eye-for-eye’ retaliation for Sidious’s electrical bolt. Yoda continued to exchange words after the Force Push, thereby proving the Grand Master didn’t intend for that move to incapacitate the Emperor. It’s evident that if Yoda had been juiced up with Force Valor and ripe for battle, that move would have been far more damaging to Palpatine. [/B]

1.K.

2.Nothing about it is untrue. Obi uses it once against a highly skilled opponent to wreck yet the attack doesn't. Obi doesn't go back to this attack yet you're proposing this is all it takes. Obi can't just walk up and tk him into submission. If he could have done so he would have. I do agree it can be used to kill/ko/injure your opponents but even in the example you provided against a
skilled opponent it doesn't cut the mustard. Against a droid sure. My point has always been this attack can't just be used to walk all over another highly skilled opponent in Star Wars nor does it ever.

Yoda's Offensive TK:

1.You come up with excuse after excuse. We've seen Obi use tk as we have seen Yoda also use it. Yoda used it against someone not cybernetic either yet Palpatine wasn't even injured by it just knocked back. Yoda/Obi or any jedi for that matter could indeed really hurt someone provided they tk'd them hard enough into the right structure at the right time although we haven't seen one example of either doing so. Yoda used his own tk against Palpatine so what Obi does is irrelevant. You can attempt to alter and mix/match feats all you want but we have a combat feat of Yoda attacking offensively against someone made of flesh and not so much a nosebleed resulted.

2.Yoda's a stealthy jedi he isn't going to just walk around letting off alarm bells along his way to Palpatine. The guards see Yoda and he quickly reacts. Yoda got the drop on them had he not they would have gotten to him prior to him moseying on down. They weren't prepared they suddenly sprang into action but we caught off guard by his tk while doing so. Plain as day. The elite guard aren't anywhere near a jedi/sith's skill level so it's not impressive in the least.

You can speculate all you want there's no proof as to suggest their spines were broken.

You have absolutely zero proof in the movie their backs were broken.

The guards were right up against the wall. The positioning of the guards made this an easy feat to pull off. Yoda didn't push them across the room he just threw them directly back right into a wall.

I will go back to Palpatine's tk push from Yoda. Palpatine's body wasn't damaged in the slightest and unlike the guards wasn't easily knocked back into wall so unless Voldemort is standing right up against a wall and taken off guard by a strolling Yoda it isn't going to happen. I also don't think that simple attack would ko Voldemort it would simply knock him back to which he would recover. The only foe we see Yoda attack using tk and being somewhat out in the open does no significant damage whatsoever. That's a fact you'll ignore while instead ignoring the context of the situation and the positioning of the guards who are far beneath any self respecting wizard or jedi from either of these franchises.

3. Inverse ninja law applies here. These foot soldiers he destroys aren't impressive. Yes, I have always believed tk or any simple attack can and will most likely defeat them but I have a hard time swallowing it's working on anyone near his skill level or Voldemort's. To me this is about as impressive as Dumbledore saving Harry in Half Blood Prince. While it's impressive what he can do here the enemies are just numerous and are easily defeatable and nowhere near a threat to an experienced/highly skilled wizard just like the clones aren't a real threat in these small numbers against two highly trained jedis.

Your theory falls short when it's used against Palpatine yet this falls perfectly into my view of things. Those of high skill aren't easily defeated with such a basic attack especially one in which Voldemort has in his arsenal.

4.You are correct as my premise has always been it's effective against lesser trained/weaker opponents than someone near, at, or above his level. Yoda was intending to kill him it makes no sense whatsoever Yoda would hold back at all considering what was on the line. Yoda probably realized this attack wouldn't finish Palpatine because like I said in every sith/jedi fight tk is used when someone's guards down it isn't used in rapid succession to crush an opponent of equal/greater/or slightly less skill. Never. has been to this point out of 6 movies.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
You said it yourself Quan. Maul couldn’t telekinetically incapacitate Obi-Wan at any time because he had to wait for the appropriate moment. Rage!Kenobi, y'know, was trying to chop his head off. Maul had to regain his footing and find a safe opening in the lightsaber duel to use the Force Push.

You are avoiding the question, Quan. Fact of the matter is that [B]Voldemort hasn't shown any comparable TK feats.

By highlighting all those dramatic examples of Yoda’s telekinetic might in my opening argument, I have proved the potency of the Grand Master’s ability. I have established the sheer amount of raw power Yoda possesses that can be employed both offensively and defensively.

In my opening argument, I have proved Yoda has tremendous defensive TK. He has shown he can lift, halt, and redirect incredibly heavy objects (some of which are coming at him with extreme momentum, such as the repulsorpod).

Basically, I have proved in my opening argument that Yoda has tremendous defensive TK.

And now I just finished discussing Yoda’s ruthlessly effectual offensive TK; with the raw power he access to, Yoda’s offensive TK can clearly one-shot Voldemort to unconsciousness --> death.

In addition, the "Jedi POV" comes into play for any TK that occurs in Jedi/Sith fights. The TK feats might come off as 'slow' perceiving it from a Jedi's frame of reference. However, a human would witness it as moderately fast. You said that Jedi POV was “impossible to gauge.” However, observational reference frame with relation to the state of motion of an observer is a well-known concept in physics. Lucas’s comment on the limitations of human actors is a valid statement since Jedi have superhuman senses, reflexes, and speed. The Jedi POV is a completely logical argument that I have made. With human senses, we would only notice the battles as blurs (such as the case in Twilight, but something that Lucas cannot cinematographically replicate), but from the frame of reference of a Jedi, we would perceive the duels as they were shown in the movies. With an ‘equivalent’ state of mind, we would see how they were played out by the actors.

I can further rationalize this line of thought because the Jedi vs Sith fights in the films involved the strongest individuals. Therefore, even from a Jedi POV, the duels were fast (which is what we watch in the movies). As a result, any of the “slow” TK you think of, such as Yoda’s redirection of the repulsorpod, would have been by no means slow by human perception.

In addition, the objects that Yoda had to lift, halt, and/or redirect were at least ten times heavier than Voldemort. If it took the time that it did to telekinetically manipulate those things, then Yoda’s TK would be very quick against Voldemort. How can we be certain? Look at the two examples of offensive TK that I’ve highlighted above- Yoda, without any exertion, speedily put two Red Guards and four 501st Clone troopers out of action.

Seriously, your argument that “it doesn’t work both ways” is invalid. You continue to rely on a singular instance that I, as everyone else who have seen the films and/or are moderating this debate, know is not reflective of Yoda’s unparalleled reflexes.

I am going to end this specific argument by you once and for all, and ram this point home for any readers who seem to believe Yoda has sluggish reflexes.

Yoda v. Sidious

Pause the video at 0:35 and observe Yoda. You see him simply standing with both of his hands resting on his cane for support. Are you going to say that’s the stance of somebody ready for battle? At 1:30, you see Yoda struggling to stand up. It’s obvious that he hasn’t activated Force Valor to overpower his old age frailties. At the end of his fight with Sidious, Yoda raises himself up more easily than before, even though he just felt the impact of an electrical explosion and plummeted hundreds of feet (bouncing off a repulsorpod on the way) before colliding onto the ground; this proves that Yoda is employing Force Valor, a power he always kicks in before combat.

Secondly, I repeat this paragraph again:

“Couple minutes later you see him dodging an avalanche of Senate pods. When he returns to engage Sidious on the repulsorpod, he lands close to the ledge, a precarious position. Here Sidious bombards him with Force Storm (which had the power to blast Windu across Coruscant) at point-blank range. The attack knocks away Yoda's lightsaber, but the Grand Master has the precog/reflexes/speed/strength to erect a potent defense single-handed (before resorting to both hands) on an insecure position.”

Yoda was closer to Sidious than he was to him in his office, was at an unstable position, and had drained a lot of energy (though the Grand Master seems to have an inexhaustible amount of that when in battle) dodging when the Sith Lord unleashed his Force Storm barrage- much stronger than the teasing bolt he fired earlier. If Yoda is as slow to aggressive actions as you make him out to be, how come he wasn’t demolished then and there?

All the evidence (Yoda against Dooku, against the Clones, against Sidious) contradicts this lowest showing you keep reverting to. The straightforward explanation is that Yoda wasn’t in battle-mode and therefore unable to respond rapidly. From 2:03 onwards is when Yoda is ready to duke it out with the Dark Lord of the Sith.

This reasoning of course doesn’t even consider the fact that the whole purpose of the ‘office scene’ was to set up the duel that would transpire in the Senate Hall. Palpatine wasn’t intending on killing Yoda with his Force Lightning; he released a single bolt and proceeded to taunt the Grand Master about his victory and his delight that the Jedi Order was destroyed. Likewise, Yoda wasn’t intending on incapacitating Sidious with his Force Push; he wanted to ‘reply in kind’ and taunt the Sith Lord that his triumph was only ephemeral. More or less, the entire ‘office scene’ was designed to build up the confrontation that happens in the Senate Hall.

Next, your statement that Voldemort only missed Potter because it was plot-driven is unsound. Yoda and Sidious had not engaged in battle until 2:22 in the video. However, once the Dark Wizard saw Potter alive, he furiously aimed his wand and blasted firebals that were either meant to kill or disable Harry; Harry, likewise, was running for his life. It was clearly a combat situation where Voldemort could not land his attacks on his desired target.

Was that supposed to be a negative point? As I discussed in my opening argument, that repulsorpod was descending with enormous force… [/B]

Voldemort has shown feats in disarming his opponent. Yoda has never once disarmed his opponent. This isn't a weight lifting competition with regards to tk this is all about combat effectiveness. Voldemort doesn't need to lift a giant spaceship to prove he can knock Yoda's saber out of his hand which has already happened when dealing with blocking an energy attack already I might add. With what Voldemort brings to the table Yoda will be hard pressed to just hold onto his saber based on the evidence from both films.

Yoda can lift and redirect heavy objects thrown at him but has never maintained an offensive by using heavy objects initially only in defense.

That's my issue with Yoda's redirection feats here. Voldemort won't fight him by hurling massive objects at him so it's irrelevant since Yoda doesn't do this offensively or proactively. So once again the in character part stymies your points as this isn't powerset arguing. If it were you'd even be at more of a disadvantage with Yoda more so than you are at this point.

Yes, Yoda has tk to resist objects either thrown at him or at his friends but this doesn't apply to how Voldemort would approach him as an opponent and isn't in character for Yoda in the first place.

To prove Voldemort can be oneshot ko'd by Yoda's force push I'd think you'd need a little more compelling evidence than Yoda taking out some random schlub Clone troopers or Imperial guards. To think Yoda could waltz into Harry Potter's world and easily tk Voldemort into submission is kind of ridiculous considering the abilities and sheer power of the wizards from this verse and the sheer power/feats/fear Voldemort has instilled on an entire magical world. People sh-- themselves when they even think of Voldemort they won't even speak his name. In Hogwarts his mere voice causes utter panic and fear from some of the students. Even you yourself do not believe this so consider me unconvinced based on Yoda dominating foes far below his pay grade.

I don't buy it for an instant and it caused everything to fall into some theoretical kind of speculative nonsense type of debate. In twilight we see blurs of speed and then we see them fighting very quickly. We know how quickly they are as the films clearly show them as blurs not some vague/unprovable statement from Lucas as to judge the characters on. I also doubt the clones would have the reflexes even in large numbers to defeat these supposed blurry fast jedi as they shouldn't be able to even gauge their location long enough to even hit them.

I agree Voldemort's weight wouldn't be an issue for Yoda but the same goes for Yoda since we see Voldemort casually and without effort move a Giant on the bridge leading to Hogwarts. So likewise it would be easy for Voldemort to affect Yoda as well due to his tk powers. Like I have said from the beginning which both movies support it's about the timing or opening in battle it isn't in character nor does anyone from either movie just tk another skilled opponent into submission.

It isn't a singular instance.

1.Dooku and Yoda locking lightsabers while Yoda helplessly looks on while Dooku tks the object in the direction of Obi and Anakin. That's awful reaction time.
2.Yoda being hit by force lightning and being unable to block the blast with his hands despite the exaggerated precog abilities he possesses.
3.Yoda being unable to keep a hold of his light saber while Palpatine hits it with lightning on the pod.

I'd like to hear any proof as to suggest force valor is mentioned in the movies at all to amping his abilities. Yoda tried moving his hands up to absorb the blast with his hands he just wasn't quick enough. You claim precog clues Yoda in as to what is going to happen next when this clearly isn't the case here.

It's obvious that the blast caught him off guard and had more of an impact on him had he been prepared or expected it. No, Yoda just falls down and was expecting the fall unlike the force lightning blast. If I get in a car accident yet remain conscious and likewise get into a fight and am ko'd due to being completely unaware of my opponent's punch that doesn't mean the car crash is less powerful than the sucker punch.

Yes, Yoda loses his saber but recovers and somewhat deflects the force onto both himself and Palpatine. This shows Yoda can be disarmed and yet while still trying to absorb pure energy still received the effects of the impact to those close by. This also raises another point.

Voldemort won't be hit by the force of his energy even if redirected due to the fact the effects only seem to hit those close by Yoda's hands trying to dispel the energy. Yoda will be sent back again or some of it will still affect him but not Voldemort since he won't be within arm's length but will be keeping his distance.

Yoda wasn't demolished due to the fact he redirected the force of the attack onto both of them. Palpatine was too close to the redirection partially employed by Yoda which hit them both of these skilled opponents. Yoda was being defensive here as always. That's his problem he's just repelling Palpatine attacks he isn't going for the kill shot.

I gave two other examples as well. Yoda doesn't have many showings against superior fighters but out of both battles he isn't perfect or all powerful either. Yoda made critical mistakes against Palpatine and wasn't aggressive enough to put Dooku down nor was he quick enough to stop Dooku's offensive tk attacks against Obi Wand and Anakin.

I completely disagree here. Both Yoda and Palpatine are trying to kill each other. The fact neither is successful doesn't take away from the blatantly obvious. Yoda's there to kill him not to taunt him. Palpatine wants to kill him but he need only survive. Like in most movies with Yoda at his mercy the bad guy stops to laugh/taunt that's not to say he couldn't have really poured it on while Yoda laid there defenseless.

Harry ran behind a wall which is irrelevant to our plot scenario. This isn't Hogwarts school where Yoda could flee between the levels and behind walls like Harry did. Voldemort also caught up with him and only failed to kill him due to Harry being the rightful owner of the Elder Wand.

Just saying Yoda doesn't offensively use pods/huge objects at his opponents. It is not a viable tactic and out of character for Yoda to employ.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
[B]FALSE

Watch the clip again Quan. There was no “resistance” to the ‘bow’ whatsoever.

And again, the OOTP example wasn’t impressive at all. I don’t want to repeat what I said before. And lol, for as “easy” as it already was for Voldemort, the dude still had to snarl and vehemently move his hand down to disarm the wand…

As a matter of fact, taking more time to TK an object that weights a considerable amount is relevant. We see Jedi having no difficulty pulling back their lightsabers if they ever lose them. We see Yoda having no difficulty TK-ing the Royal Guards and the Clone troopers. It’s rather logical to assume that lifting up an apple with the Force would take significantly less time than lifting an X-wing. Therefore, Yoda TK-ing something (such as a human) that has at least ten times less mass than some of the massive objects he has moved before wouldn’t occur in a “drawn out period of time” at all, but rather instantly. And Ihave shown proof of this phenomenon.

I’ve discussed this before in greater detail above. But just to recap: Bodyguards chosen (to even be selected for such a position means that not only are you in incredible condition, but that you have extreme focus, keen senses, and quick reflexes) to protect the most important man in the galaxy are not taken by surprise by someone whom they can hear grunting and slowly making his way to the room. And that is verified by how briskly they react to Yoda as passes the doorway.

All right, but Voldemort, as the no nonsense-type, would most likely only use Avada Kedavra among the Unforgivable Curses.

All right, then.

Ah, okay. Well I’ve already acknowledged in my opening argument that Voldemort has a powerful arsenal; it’s just that firepower ultimately won’t save him against Yoda.

And after watching Yoda get up rather comfortably after feeling the impact of an explosion and crashing to the ground after falling hundreds of feet while bouncing off repulsorpods, I’d say he’s very durable, himself.

To be honest Quan, I was going to respond quite similarly to the counter already posted against this argument:

1. Any shield becomes more damaged/less effectual the more blows it absorbs. If that’s the case, then if the Hogwarts’ barrier had already been bombarded with the spells of some 100 Death Eaters, Voldemort only truly destroyed an already broken shield.

2. (If #1 isn’t true) We don’t know what spell Voldemort utilized to break that protective barrier. For all we know, the other Death Eaters may not have known the correct incantation, but the Dark Wizard did.

3. And yes, the barrier’s destruction was due to Voldemort (fueled by his excessive rage/horror) rather than the powers of the Elder Wand. The movie explicitly depicts the Elder Wand resisting his spell.

WTF? This isn’t even a fight scene involving Death Eaters. Are you trying to say that since Voldemort broke a barrier that a hundred Death Eaters already significantly weakened for him or Voldemort broke a barrier that he happened to know the unique spell for, that suddenly he’s > 100 Death Eaters???

And now you are showing what a few Death Eaters can do (breaking a bridge unopposed) collectively, so everyone else can fathom what 100 Death Eaters can do combined? And this is due to your logic that Voldemort > 100 Death Eaters because he broke a shield. Wow…huh…I don’t even know what to say…

LOL? Tell me, what “gusting winds” do you see moving parallel to the trajectory of Windu’s ejection that they carry Mace at least a mile+ into the Coruscant skyline?

UNLIMITED POWAHHH!

I apologize, but this is a ludicrous rebuttal.

These “gusting winds” that you speak of do not suddenly maintain the force that Sidious’s lightning expelled Windu. Watch the video again- it’s very obvious that it was the strength of the Sith Lord’s barrage that threw the Jedi to that distance, and not because of any assisting “gusting winds.”

In fact, since you brought up “gusting winds,” if you watch from 1:27 onwards, you see the gale blowing into Sidious’s face (look at his eyes) and then later his back as he turns around.

Therefore, the “gusting winds” are actually more orthogonal than parallel to Windu as he is thrown into the air.

Thank you- you have established Sidious’s Force Storm as even more powerful. Without the “gusting winds” to lessen the forward force, Windu would have traveled even farther. And this makes Yoda’s accomplishment against Palpatine’s Force Storm even more impressive. [/B]

Yes, there was. Harry is resisting the bow or trying to. Voldemort wouldn't need to tk him to bow if he did so willingly.

How isn't that impressive ? You talk of Yoda having his hands right in front of him on his cane while Palpatine SLOWLY RAISES HIS HANDS TO ATTACK as being impressive compared to someone turning around and trying to get the jump on you.

We also see Yoda tking Palpatine himself and all it did was push him. If Yoda's feats carried over he'd crush Palpatine's head if he wanted to since he can lift something which weighs well over 200 times the bodyweight of Palpatine's head. It doesn't translate over despite you really wanting it too.

I have always agreed at the right time Yoda could force push Voldemort. That's a combat feat so that I accept but trying to carry over the enormous weight feats into instant human crushing strength just isn't supportable.

Yes, we've been over this and saying their backs were broken without a shred of proof doesn't make it true.

Yes, he's more apt to use the killing curse but the torture curse is still an option since he's done so in battle.

Firepower with the reflexes and easy manner in which Voldemort does so will break Yoda and quickly. Palpatine gave him fits with just pure bursts of force lightning. Voldemort has more powerful burts of lightning, a one shot kill method, a giant fire snake who won't stop until Yoda's dead, tk in his own right, the ability to apparate, and the force he can release to knock Yoda on his ass makes me say with 100 percent certainly Yoda can't win.

Yoda can be as durable as he wants he isn't surviving fiendfyre or the Avada Kedavra. A pure energy blast would also seriously injure him considering Voldemort's Hogwarts enchantment destruction feat.

1.Voldemort immediately destroyed the shield. The other wizards' combined attacks weren't going to break through any time soon so Voldemort greatly exceeded their combined efforts for an immediate result.

2.No proof at all to that just random speculation. Voldemort just let loose an energy attack from his wand there was no incantation at all uttered. You have no proof and are throwing something at the wall and hoping it sticks.

3.Voldemort's blasts were resisted due to the fact the wand was actively going against it's rightful owner.

I just showed the type of collateral damage a few deatheaters can cause due to simple spells/attacks implying Voldemort's power is far greater therefore it far exceeds this collateral damage feat.

The winds were apparent the moment the window was shattered. Palpatine also unloaded on a completely helpless opponent. Who cares ? Palpatine was trying to kill Luke as well who was under the duress of this lightning for many seconds yet survived with no long term effects. To try and exaggerate the potency of this attack is ridiculous. We even see Palpatine have the attacks redirected right back into his face for seconds as well with just burn scars. The attack packs a punch but is only fatal when under a prolonged period of time.

Lets do a quick recap of those who survived the force lightning attacks

1.Palpatine
2.Yoda
3.Luke Skywalker

Windu the only man one could ever claimwas killed by force lightning was also thrown out a window after having his hand cut off by Anakin so we can't even say for certain the force lightning even killed him before the fall did.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. The Elder Wand cracked and harmed itself (and hurt the Dark Wizard, as well) when Voldemort broke the Hogwarts’ barrier. That wasn’t a moment when Voldemort was opposing Harry Potter.

2. The Deathstick wasn’t any stronger than a normal wand in all those examples you state above. The Elder Wand will release spells reluctantly, but it no way would it ever bolster Voldemort’s attacks.

3. The Elder Wand only performed the Killing Curse against Potter because Harry wanted the Deathstick to kill him.

[B]FALSE

Apparition would be Voldemort’s only defense against Yoda’s bionic precog/sense/reflexes/speed, not to mention brutal TK.

I’m not saying it’s impossible for Voldemort to use Apparition. HOWEVER, as I have described in my opening argument and prior rebuttal, the very nature of wizard duels and Voldemort’s highly-offensive persona will place the Dark Wizard at a disadvantage due to the uncomfortable degree of Apparition he will have to employ to evade Yoda. That's why I see this battle ending rather quickly in the Jedi's favor.

No, those two are completely different circumstances that are no way analogous. Black never heard (therefore anticipated) Bellatrix approaching, and didn’t have the opportunity to see her and aim his wand before he was killed. Lestrange materialized a distance away, and cheapshot a completely unsuspecting Sirius. My point holds- in the films, Apparition works if the opponent has no anticipation whatsoever.

Sure, Potter might have had an adrenaline-fueled rapid reaction rate during that fight, but ultimately, even with all of his experiences, his senses are still human. And Yoda, on the other hand, has precognition and Force Sense with superhuman reflexes and speed.

What is this??? This ‘fire control’ that you claim is off-the-charts speculation.

The film never shows what would transpire in a controlled Fiendfyre when Voldemort conjures up his fiery serpent without knowing the position of his opponent. There isn’t any proof to suggest that this snake can even sense on its own accord and move without Voldemort commanding its movements.

Secondly, the film doesn’t show whether Voldemort can maintain Fiendfyre and unleash another enchantment simultaneously, especially considering he has to sustain concentration in order to control this wild spell from being uncontained.

Thirdly, with the flames masking Voldemort’s visibility in the direction he released Fiendfyre, the Dark Wizard may not have any idea where the exceedingly swift Grand Master has jumped to. Fiendfyre would be a waste for Voldemort to maintain (especially if he cannot utilize other spells while the spell is still active and/or the serpent can only move with Voldemort’s command, both of which are unknowns that the films never explain).

All we know about controlled Fiendfyre is that Voldemort manipulate it, shape it into an aflame serpent, and set it, on his order, onto someone whose location he knows. [/B]

1.Yes, Harry Potter was in the resistance at Hogwarts. Voldemort's whole mission there was to kill Harry Potter and the enchantment ultimately protected him.

2.It didn't release anything reluctantly save the drawn out energy blast to break through the enchantment protecting the school. I don't care if you think it bolstered his attack it blew threw it and is powerful enough to kill Yoda. Whether it does or doesn't the feats won't change and he's extraordinary even without it.

3.Yes, but the killing curse was performed against other beings and Yoda isn't Harry Potter so he dies. Yoda isn't the rightful ruler of the wand.

I gave examples of the wand killing multiple people and doing just fine with it only resisting him once when he's directly opposing Harry Potter by breaking the enchantment after a length concentrated blast.

Yoda's tk isn't brutal I mean you're making a big deal out of him beating nobodies and foot soldiers. Yoda's tk didn't even hurt Palpatine and was only used sparingly against the clones troopers and the guards all unskilled opponents.

Yoda struggles with force lightning so he'll struggle with simple blasts from Voldemort. Yoda will be struggling to hold onto his saber since he loses his grip so easily and struggles to even block a telegraphed attack. Voldemort probably routes him. Think about it his simple attacks will give Yoda fits. If Voldemort brings fiendfyre there's nothing Yoda can do to defeat this magic as well. Yoda will play the role of victim quite well.

Just like the guards really were caught off guard. Had they been aware of Yoda they would have attacked him prior to him entering the room. Both situations were due to being caught off guard there's nothing to hype so just quit already.

Yoda has still been hit by below human reaction/anticipatory time. I will break down Yoda's other humiliating Dooku reaction feat even further.

While Yoda's saber is locked with Dooku's Yoda sits there helplessly as Dooku slowly tk's apart that structure without doing a thing to stop it. Yet you claim he's reaction time is uber. Please. It's embarrassing. You can continue to ignore his poor reactionary times against skilled foes and play up the schlubs/foot soldiers who are easily defeated by random force pushes but don't bring that crap here against the dark lord. Unlike Yoda Voldemort lives in an entire community comprised of wizards honing their skills and Voldemort is at the top of the pack.

Potter unlike Yoda has ranged attacks. That's Yoda's biggest downfall.

In the Deathly Hallows Part 2 we see the fire creatures let loose and set upon killing their opponents. This is on screen proof. The wizard didn't have to know the location the magic goes after it's target or anyone even if he/she can't control it. You can pretend Voldemort needs to know his opponents location with absolutely no proof and another desperate attempt to fool the posters here.

This is accurate to how it's been depicted in the films and we've seen Voldemort also quickly disperse this powerful magic with his reflexes.

Fiendfyre initially appears as a "roaring, billowing noise" and gives its victims only a moment's warning. Its flames are of abnormal size and take the shape of fire-breathing monsters and beasts, such as serpents, chimaeras, dragons, and raptors, continuously mutating. It appears to have enough consciousness to actually follow its intended victims. The fire will pursue nearby lifeforms as if it were alive itself, sentient, even the one who conjured it if they lack control. The fire will also pursue anything it can burn for more fuel and seems to incinerate anything through mere contact.

Inexperienced casters will be able to conjure it, but will have virtually no control over the flames once they are unleashed, which would make the flames a potential deadly backfire, though an experienced Dark Wizard (like Lord Voldemort) would be able to control it and manipulate it to great effect.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
I think I’ve drilled the point home as to why that one presentation you keep falling back to [B]isn’t representative of Yoda in combat (which is a Battlezone presumption- that both combatants are ready for battle).

Yoda’s reflexes and speed are leagues higher than that of Voldemort’s. You can continue to glorify the Dark Wizard with his removal of Harry Potter’s wand, but the fact remains that it was an unimpressive showing , and doesn’t prove whatsoever that Voldemort has anything remotely close to herculean reflexes and agility.

Then it’s also a possibility that if Yoda is an energy exchange with Voldemort, that the tendrils could hit the Dark Wizard as he is busy repelling the pure energy Yoda is sending back.

How in the world can you compare Windu’s and Yoda’s lightning interactions? The circumstances in which Sidious unleashed his electrical maelstrom were completely different- Windu was on solid ground with this lightsaber right between himself and Sidious on the ground, whereas Yoda just landed on a precarious position on the repulsorpod after just dodging an avalanche of Senate pods. That Yoda lost his lightsaber is completely reasonable. Fact of the matter is that he ends up ‘winning’ the energy exchange against the same barrage that took Windu everything he had to block with his lightsaber and later ejected him very far into the Coruscant skyline.

Avada Kadavra ”kills you upon contact” but tutaminis, either with a lightsaber or bare hands, prevents the concentrated energy from ever touching the body.

Talk about beating a dead horse for the amount of times I have to tell you that the moment you keep going back to isn’t exhibitive of Yoda’s abilities, especially when all his combat scenes have him contradicting this singular instance.

Secondly, losing his lightsaber isn't a gamebreaker for Yoda since the Grand Master can just TK Voldemort.

FALSE

1. Yoda crippled the Royal Guards and crippled/killed the Clone Troopers with TK.

2. Yoda’s TK of Palpatine was an ‘eye for an eye’ retaliation and not meant to incapacitate the Emperor.

3. Of course TK knocks opponents back- if you’re forcefully pushing someone, he/she will certainly move backwards.

Palpatine and Yoda are essentially equals in their precognition, Force sense, reflexes, and speed. In lightsaber combat, neither can afford to disengage and use an offensive TK maneuver without the risk of a lightsaber up his throat. It’s the explanation behind the limited usage of Force attacks between Force-sensitives. All Jedi Knights have the precognition to dodge/block the move and then press the advantage.

It’s the reason why lightsaber contests are not only won by those who are quicker, but also by the ones who have superior precognition to look farther ahead and counter their opponenet’s maneuver.

FALSE. Kenobi tried to dismantle Grievous by slamming into a metal overhanging, which failed. Once Obi-Wan saw that, he knew Grievous’s cybernetic armor was too strong for his TK to break. Therefore, he went for the cyborg’s heart.

Completely False.

1. Rage!Anakin/Vader at the end of ROTS isn’t nowhere as powerful as the Zone!Anakin that clobbered Dooku. It’s a ‘fact’ that’s quite established in the Star Wars Versus Forum.

2. Anakin and Obi-Wan were engaged in high-speed lightsaber combat- if one slowed his pace to use TK, the other would have chopped a limb off. Both of them had engaged in a saber lock, and saw the opportunity to safely utilize a Force Push to drive the opponent into submission. Of course, both of them saw the opening and that’s why it ended up becoming a stalemate.

3. Again, TK is effective if it can surprise an opponent. However, that’s not its sole purpose whatsoever. All the examples you’ve provided demonstrate that the user employs TK to incapacitate the opponent (Yoda against the Clones/Royal Guards; Obi-Wan against Grievous; Vader & Kenobi against each other).

Against an opponent who he knows doesn’t have the matching precognition, reflexes, sense, and speed, Yoda will definitely make use of telekinesis. Against lesser opponents (the Clones & Royal Guards), he has utilized TK successfully. [/B]

That isn't an unimpressive showing. You can pretend it is but we both know better. Harry didn't slowly raise his wand to attack Voldemort it was a quick fluid action which Voldemort easily negated with superior reflexes unlike Yoda's nonreaction to a telegraphed obvious as crap Palpatine lightning blast.

Since when has Voldemort been hit by his own energy sent back at him ? When did Yoda ever repel anything with his light saber ? Am I forgetting something ?

Yoda didn't lose his footing his lost his saber. That's the difference here. Yoda wasn't slipping away he basically lost grip of his saber and then maintained a redirection with his hands which ended up hitting him as well as hitting Palpatine with Yoda ending up going off the pod.

Windu succeeded whereas Yoda failed. No biggie. You can make up whatever excuses you want to but in the end Windu defeated Palpatine whereas Yoda failed. Yoda even admits he fails in the movie. If you don't believe me believe your little green buddy.

Yoda was touched by the force lightning from Palpatine. He didn't avoid the effects at all it hit him and Palpatine since he was nearby but Voldemort won't be nearby and the moment it strikes your hand you're dead.

Wrong. His feats don't contradict it. The feats simply enforce my beliefs Yoda can dominate lesser skilled opponents with ease but struggles with equally, slightly less skilled, or greater skilled opponents. Yoda's slow dumb staring he did at Dooku as he slowly tk'd loose a structure into the direction of his friends cement Yoda's reactionary type feats. Why not tk the structure and resist or simply tk Dooku and break his concentration. It was a terrible slow showing against a slightly less skilled opponent.

Yoda can force push him if he isn't ready but Voldemort can Avada Kedavra, cut him with a simple wand movement, release a fire basilisk, apparate, or use the torture curse on him rendering him helpless.

1.You have no proof he crippled anyone much like most of your wild unsupported claims about the films.

2.This is another highly illogical twisting of the situation Yoda found himself in. Yoda was there for one reason only to kill Palpatine. To suggest he didn't intend to kill/defeat him at any moment doesn't make a lick of sense and contradicts the whole purpose of Yoda going there in the first place.

3.Yes, and when they regain their balance Yoda doesn't continue to tk his opponents it isn't in character nor do you have any example of any enemy who was tk'd in multiple succession.

Like Voldemort or any other character one can't simply use tk due to the tremendous speed of the attacks and the awareness one must have in a duel.

The winner like in any contest is decided on a multitude of factors but like my initial point tk is only used when effective it isn't some fail safe to go back to when in a pickle.

Incorrect. Had Obi been able to k him at will he wouldn't have had to tk the gun to him he could have easily tk'd him away until he comfortably retrieved the gun. Obi used the attack once it didn't ko or kill his opponent so he went to another form of attack like all sith/jedi in battle. Maul tk'd Obi into a defenseless position that doesn't mean the option was always right before him that easily he had to wait until the proper opening.

1. I have no idea what you mean when you say the Zone.....

2.Yes, due to them both using the same attack at the same time had one done so a moment prior to the other one then it would have been effective. Once again timing is everything.

3.All examples when the timing was crucial and against much weaker opponents.

Ok, I see here you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to argue Yoda goes out of character and tk'd left and right. Then by the same token Voldemort sees his opponents speed and maneuverability and releases the basilisk while safely apparating away while it pursues him out of harms reach.

Voldemort's shown the ability for both and since Yoda doesn't need examples of using tk more than once against one opponent I can start using Voldemort attacks in a power set type fashion since you are attempting to do so.

Either way Voldemort wins so I see why you are attempting to do so.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Yes, I’ve explained more than enough times why Yoda “didn’t suddenly rush Palpatine” after his Force Push.

I feel this is a point of contention that we won’t be able to agree upon. Therefore, it’s up for all those judging and deciding the outcome of this debate to see who’s actually right on this matter.

Yoda doesn’t need to “keep suing it” against Voldemort; if he can successfully land an offensive TK (which he most certainly can as a result of his much faster speed) Voldemort would either lose his wand or end smashed to the ground and knocked out cold like the Clones and Royal Guards.

Yoda, landing on the edge of a repulsorpod and having no traction, and just returning from dodging an avalanche of Senate pods, managed to temporarily block Sidious’s Force Storm single-handed before resorting to two hands, and still, once he regained composure, clearly ‘won’ that exchange. That Force Storm had the power to throw Windu at least mile+ (against “gusting winds” along the way) into Coruscant.

Therefore, it would take something with tremendous force for Yoda to not be able to block. That Force Storm attack would have put anyone on his/her ass, but not the Grand Master.

I'm glad you agree he won't continually keep tking as he's never once done so against any opponent, offensively. Voldemort's also held onto his wand throughout his duel against Dumbledore despite being entrapped in a water bubble and violently jerked around. Voldemort will hold onto his wand whereas Yoda has never tk'd any highly skilled opponents lightsaber even in his own movie so coupling that with Voldemort's spotless record it seems very unlikely if we look at the evidence objectively.

Yoda didn't need traction to redirect the force lightning blast so it's just a matter of grip. Yoda wasn't losing his footing but rather was trying with all his concentration to send it back into Palpatine which also resulted in hitting him as well because they were in such short distance to each other.

Palpatine's unloading on Windu sent him back a considerable distance due to him being defenseless factored in with the wind. I've already explained how the force lightning hasn't killed anyone in the movies we know of while Windu was also wounded by Anakin and we can't determine whether he was dead prior to his fall out the window. Yoda also redirected it to effect them both so neither got hit with 100 percent of the effect. We also see prior at the start of the fight Yoda hit with it which sent him back but nowhere near a mile. The only time we ever see anyone fall back that far is when he unloads on someone who cannot defend himself for a considerable time.

Neither Luke nor Yoda was driven back anywhere near that far and Luke was under the duress of it for a considerable amount of time as well.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. Tutaminis doesn’t simply allow Yoda to block or redirect. It can also dissipate the negative energy of an attack. You see Yoda dissipating Dooku’s Force Lightning into nothingness before his palms in AOTC. Therefore, Yoda can dissipate the energy of the Killing Curse if it’s arriving at tremendous pace; however, seeing how he dealt with Sidious’s Force Storm, I’d say it would take some very powerful magic for Yoda to not be able to redirect into a pure energy pulse, and even more stronger for him to not be able to dissipate.

2. It causes instantaneous death if it hits his opponent. Yoda is creating a Force Armor that prevents the attack from making contact with its target. I have shown how Force Lightning and the Killing Curse are similar in style and essence. Therefore, tutaminis is a viable option for Yoda to active to block Avada Kadavra.

3. Yoda could easily dissipate some of the negative energy of Avada Kadavra and then gather the rest and redirect it into a bolt of pure energy. Perhaps Avada Kadavra is unblockable with magical spells, but there’s nothing to suggest a potent energy shield designed to block, dissipate, and redirect the concentrated energy of an attack wouldn’t be efficacious. Tutaminis isn’t specific for Force Lightning- it’s a universal shield designed to absorb harmul concentrated energy.

4. Elder Wand won’t boost Voldemort’s attack. Nuff said.

1. Unfortunately for Voldemort, Yoda still has his Force powers and TK to finish the Dark Wizard. [B]And how about the fact that once Voldemort loses his wand, he really is done for.

2. Voldemort can only evade Yoda for so long before he’s TK-ed or cut into mincement by Yoda’s lightsaber. Apart from that 'office scene', you haven’t shown anything else that has Voldemort to be able to keep up with Yoda.

3. There is no proof in the films as to what can happen with a controlled Fiendfyre.

4. Yeah, if Voldemort can even manage to say Crucio and hit Yoda at the same time. He has a tendency to miss opponents that don’t stand nice and still.

I’ll just repeat this again:

"And I'll provide you with some "options" on how easy this duel could be for Yoda. If both opponents are coming in with basic knowledge of the other's abilities, then Yoda knows all he needs to do is disarm Voldemort. For all the options Voldemort has, Yoda can erase them with a simple Force Pull on the Elder Wand the moment both combatants begin fighting. You remember Order 66? Gree and a fellow Clone reveal their weapons and fire, but Yoda had killed them by that point. Similarly, Voldemort swishes his wind and starts his first spell, only to see his wand already out of his hand.

Without higher ground, and Yoda gunning forward to close the 200 feet distance between him and Voldemort, the Dark Wizard will be hard-pressed to maintain a safe distance from the Grand Master. Yoda would continuously put him on the defensive (which would be extremely uncomfortable for a heavily-offensive Voldemort). As soon as this battle begins, and Voldemort fires his expected killing stroke, if Yoda hadn't already disarmed his wand, he'll be in the air advancing fiercely to engage the Dark Wizard in close combat."

And I’ll add that if Voldemort keeps apparating to add distance, then Yoda can just precog/sense his location when he materializes, and then rush him for one-shot TK --> lightsaber slash --> death.

Sure, if that dark energy spell can even hit Yoda. And even though the setting in an arena, the fact that Harry was running his back towards Voldemort when the Dark Wizard fired that spell and Potter still managed to jump away shows that Yoda wouldn’t any trouble dodging these spells.

There’s a lot of difference between a spell that easily be avoided by side-stepping and dodging massive Senate pods flying at ridiculous speeds. You make a major assumption even saying Yoda can be hit by a spell. [/B]

2.It is touching Yoda's hand and he needs focus to successfully repel it which he was unable to do against Palpatine as the blast still hit him as well as Palpatine. If you can back up the force armor in the movies you claim Yoda implores then do so now.

3.Yoda can't even do so against nonfatal force lightning. I mean come on with the amount of force lightning attacks from Palpatine it's not a very deadly instantaneous means of killing your opponent even comparable to Voldemort unleashing his energy blasts let alone on the same page as the killing curse. If Yoda can't easily dissipate the force lightning he isn't easily dissipating any of Voldemort's energy attacks with his hands let alone the killing curse. Back up from the movies Yoda creates energy shields when repelling attacks.

4.Whether you believe it does or doesn't the Elder wand feats in his hands speak for themselves. The killing curse worked multiple times, successfully slashed Snape, and destroyed the enchantment barrier on its own.

1.Proving Yoda easily tk disarms Voldemort into losing his wand is completely unsupportable by either of their feats. Voldemort has never lost his wand in combat while Yoda has never disarmed an experienced light saber wielder in combat. Based on the evidence it's unlikely. Based on the evidence Yoda will hurl him backward with the force push just as he did against Palpatine.

2.Based on every major battle Voldemort has been in does he keep Yoda just evading for his life. In the cemetery scene we see him easily dominate Harry Potter and implement the Crucio curse to torture him first then playing with his victim wants to kill him in a duel. Voldemort didn't anticipate Harry's dead parents distracting him for the moment he needed to escape.

Based on the OOTP scene we see him go up against one of the other greatest wizards of all time who wielded the Elder Wand. Voldemort not only held his own he seemed to be winning but changed his tactics and possessed Harry Potter. Unlike Dumbledore Yoda can't defeat Fiendfyre or transmute glass into sand. Voldemort also broke free of the water bubble and successfully dissipated Fiendfyre a moment before it struck him. That's how quick he is in battle. He's arguably the best wizard from what we've seen in a duel depending on how you look at it and held his own against the other greatest wizard of their era despite him having the Elder Wand the most powerful wand in all of existence. Acting like Voldemort would be unprepared for Yoda someone so limited by his actions when in a wizard's duel quick thinking and your reactions could mean your life is forfeit. The guy is built for quick thinking and has shown the reflexes necessary in battle to do so.

In Deathly Hallows 2 Harry Potter was the rightful owner of the wand so Voldemort was always going to be screwed against him while wielding it. Yoda doesn't have the same luxury.

3. What ? Yes there is we see Voldemort send it loose against Dumbledore. We don't see anything even closely relating to Voldemort needing to remote control it's actions via command. We also see an inexperienced wizard implore such magic and the fire creatures didn't stop attacking everyone in the room. The fire magic won't stop nor is there any implication your claim Voldemort needs to remote control it in the film. It's common sense based on these two showings, Voldemort's damned reputation, and both scenes you set it loose on your victim if you control it even without it you just run the risk of it coming after you as well and even if that happened which is ludicrous Voldemort can dissipate it easily.

4.Voldemort didn't miss Harry Potter with Crucio nor did he miss the Avada Kedavra curse in the dark forest. Can Voldemort miss, sure. Cab Voldemort safely fire again also sure.

Why you keep bringing up order 66 is beyond me. The two guards felt they had the element of surprise but Yoda being aware of their intentions made this an easy kill. Voldemort won't be walking up to him in an attempt to high five the muppet he will be attacking at a safe distance due to basic knowledge of Yoda's abilities and skills while attempting to kill him.

All you do is speculate and I make notice back to the Dooku duel where Yoda helplessly watched as their sabers were locked while Dooku tk'd loose a structure into the direction of Obi and Anakin. Dooku was in the same position not fighting Yoda while Yoda stood there and waited to react which took a lot longer than Voldemort flicking spells/blasts at him. Both Yoda and Dooku were in the same position simply staring off into the sunset whereas Dooku slowly tk'd something at Yoda's friends to which he waited to react despite sitting there doing nothing in the meantime.

Voldemort doesn't need higher ground he can apparate to create more distance between them at will. Unlike Palpatine who needs to physically move to create distance it's one of Voldemort's abilities.

Again acting like Yoda disarms his opponents right out of the gate is simply out of character while also being unsupported. Yoda isn't this fast nor has he ever disarmed another jedi/sith in combat.

If Yoda can't react before Dooku's obvious tk or Palpatine's slowly raising hand let's not pretend he's all over the much faster apparation of Voldemort. I don't think it's too quickly for him to react to once he does so but acting like he will know where he's going before he does so is again wanking Yoda. I gave two examples in his major onscreen battles against equal or lesser foes in which he was unsuccessful when the attack/the intent was obvious.

Yoda can dodge spells but he won't be in the same environment either. Yoda isn't jumping from level to level fleeing from Voldemort and if he is great as it creates more distance to which Voldemort keeps the barrage/onslaught coming.

You claim Yoda's precog is amazing so he should know before it happens where the pods are coming. The blast from Voldemort seem every bit if not quicker than the pods. Also Yoda was quite a considerable distance away from the pods giving him more time to evade unlike your premise here where he will be closing in on Voldemort giving him less time to react.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
“Hub bub?” Yes, it makes a difference [B]because we don’t know if Voldemort can perform hand manipulations of spells without the use of a wand. If Yoda knows Voldemort can perform magic with a wand, then he’ll know he has to remove that instrument. Since Yoda has superhuman speed and reflexes, it’s very, very likely that he can Force Pull/Push that wand out of Voldemort’s hand at any time and then proceed to destroy Voldemort with his lightsaber or another TK.

Perhaps Voldemort is capable of some wandless magic and basic hand manipulation of the Force, but without his wand, he will lose this fight.

Quit assuming that because Voldemort only lost his wand in combat due to a random reason that he won’t be able to lose it in this fight.

What was hinted at was that Harry was tortured and in complete desperation and likely not have been able to perform any spell with the potency he would have in normal conditions. Seriously Quan, there was nothing impressive about it.

Precognition, hello?

Well, of course, he didn’t bother resisting before and now he is wounded somewhere in his body. He's especially defenseless now. Fact remains is that all we see is a Sectumsepra on a sitting duck that doesn’t kill its recipient.

No I’m not being “nitpicky.” If I saw blood dripping down Snape’s throat, I would agree that his throat was cut. You were the one who stated his throat was cut, and I contended that it wasn’t explicitly shown where Voldemort cut Snape.

Secondly, you can clearly SEE where the contact region between the wall and the Royal Guards took place- the center of the back at the location of the vertebral column.

Thirdly, I’m not even bother repeating this because I’ve said it way too many times. That whole ‘office scene’ before 2:22 wasn’t combat.

If he "cut him with the wave of his wand," then it is probably Sectumsempra.

Because Yoda will stand still and allow this to happen, of course?

And Yoda just as easily, if not more easily thanks to his bionic speed and reflexes, can nonverbally TK Voldemort onto the ground and knock him unconscious.

That’s because Dumbledore was standing at a fixed location so Fiendfyre was a viable option to overwhelm the Headmaster.

Why wound Voldemort want to take the time to manipulate and maintain control of a fiery serpent when he sees a blur dodging and rapidly rushing towards him. Will he risk sending his snake dangerously close to his position?

Voldemort won’t bother with Fiendfyre. He’d rather keep chugging other spells then waste time controlling a giant fiery serpent that’ll complete block his visibility on one side.

But anyway, if he does use Fiendfyre, the battle becomes already that much easier for Yoda.

That’s exactly my point. Yoda will move so fast for Voldemort that Apparition will be Voldemort’s only defense, but it’s completely out of his character to continuously keep apparating. Furthermore, it's something uncommon in wizard duels where two opponents usually hold their ground and attempt to overwhelm each other with spells. [/B]

Voldemort is capable of apparation but needless to say he won't be disarmed so don't worry about it.

Quit assuming that Voldemort is the only character here who can be disarmed.

Fact:Voldemort disarmed an enemy.

Fact:Yoda has been disarmed by an energy blast by his enemy.

You somehow reach the conclusion Voldemort is the one who easily gets disarmed despite the facts.

Both the spider and both Harry Potter were writhing in pain and unable to mount any defense at all. That's consistent in both cases of the evidence. How can you disagree ?

Precognition which failed to stop a telegraphed obvious Palpatine blast and also failed to counter Dooku's slow tk assault on the structure aimed at Obi/Anakin while Yoda stood back like an idiot and watched.

Whether his throat was cut or not the simple gesture by his wand can slice Yoda open so whether he aims for his throat or some other body part will be gashed.

You have no proof their spines were destroyed you just speculate it was. Without any proof in the film you have nothing but yet throw a hissy over what part of Snape was actually cut.

Since when was Voldemort shown access to this knowledge and when did he use these words to implore this method of attack ?

Yoda can't easily knock Voldemort unconscious. You have zero proof koing Voldemort is easy or of it ever occurring. That's not to say it's impossible but the claims I have made are backed up on film whereas you have this battle mapped out in your mind already based on ability alone. Yoda has been disarmed on film showing by blocking massive amounts of energy he can lose grip of his saber. I can then make the claim based on evidence Yoda loses grip of his saber during a barrage of energy blasts from Voldemort. See how this works.

Yoda isn't a blur nor is he ever portrayed as being a blur like the twilight films where they purposely show blurry speed. Voldemort releases the fire serpent without any effort at all and simply laughs at his own greatness performing the said feat. To act like this is drawn out is ridiculous I mean Palpatine took longer to force lightning blast Yoda than Voldemort did to release this and that blast hit Yoda.

Yoda needed all his wits and skills to avoid the pods crashing towards him while this fiery basilisk due to it's sheer size and relentless will soon kill Yoda. Deep down even you yourself know this to be true.

Yoda isn't anywhere near as fast as you are making him out to be. Voldemort's energy blasts will probably quickly dislodge Yoda's saber making him an even easier target to kill. Couple that with the fact Voldemort has knowledge of Yoda and seeing as how he isn't a wizard who relies on sheer spell casting/reflexes but rather someone who has tk powers along with elusiveness and a laser sword he won't be foolish enough to stay in one place.

You yourself have fallen back into this position which I can also turn against you. Voldemort didn't become the most feared wizard in a realm of wizards by being stupid. He's combat savvy and the darkest wizard of all time. Yoda simply cannot keep up with his attacks for long.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
“Hub bub?” Yes, it makes a difference [B]because we don’t know if Voldemort can perform hand manipulations of spells without the use of a wand. If Yoda knows Voldemort can perform magic with a wand, then he’ll know he has to remove that instrument. Since Yoda has superhuman speed and reflexes, it’s very, very likely that he can Force Pull/Push that wand out of Voldemort’s hand at any time and then proceed to destroy Voldemort with his lightsaber or another TK.

Perhaps Voldemort is capable of some wandless magic and basic hand manipulation of the Force, but without his wand, he will lose this fight.

Quit assuming that because Voldemort only lost his wand in combat due to a random reason that he won’t be able to lose it in this fight.

What was hinted at was that Harry was tortured and in complete desperation and likely not have been able to perform any spell with the potency he would have in normal conditions. Seriously Quan, there was nothing impressive about it.

Precognition, hello?

Well, of course, he didn’t bother resisting before and now he is wounded somewhere in his body. He's especially defenseless now. Fact remains is that all we see is a Sectumsepra on a sitting duck that doesn’t kill its recipient.

No I’m not being “nitpicky.” If I saw blood dripping down Snape’s throat, I would agree that his throat was cut. You were the one who stated his throat was cut, and I contended that it wasn’t explicitly shown where Voldemort cut Snape.

Secondly, you can clearly SEE where the contact region between the wall and the Royal Guards took place- the center of the back at the location of the vertebral column.

Thirdly, I’m not even bother repeating this because I’ve said it way too many times. That whole ‘office scene’ before 2:22 wasn’t combat.

If he "cut him with the wave of his wand," then it is probably Sectumsempra.

Because Yoda will stand still and allow this to happen, of course?

And Yoda just as easily, if not more easily thanks to his bionic speed and reflexes, can nonverbally TK Voldemort onto the ground and knock him unconscious.

That’s because Dumbledore was standing at a fixed location so Fiendfyre was a viable option to overwhelm the Headmaster.

Why wound Voldemort want to take the time to manipulate and maintain control of a fiery serpent when he sees a blur dodging and rapidly rushing towards him. Will he risk sending his snake dangerously close to his position?

Voldemort won’t bother with Fiendfyre. He’d rather keep chugging other spells then waste time controlling a giant fiery serpent that’ll complete block his visibility on one side.

But anyway, if he does use Fiendfyre, the battle becomes already that much easier for Yoda.

That’s exactly my point. Yoda will move so fast for Voldemort that Apparition will be Voldemort’s only defense, but it’s completely out of his character to continuously keep apparating. Furthermore, it's something uncommon in wizard duels where two opponents usually hold their ground and attempt to overwhelm each other with spells. [/B]

Voldemort is capable of apparation but needless to say he won't be disarmed so don't worry about it.

Quit assuming that Voldemort is the only character here who can be disarmed.

Fact:Voldemort disarmed an enemy.

Fact:Yoda has been disarmed by an energy blast by his enemy.

You somehow reach the conclusion Voldemort is the one who easily gets disarmed despite the facts.

Both the spider and both Harry Potter were writhing in pain and unable to mount any defense at all. That's consistent in both cases of the evidence. How can you disagree ?

Precognition which failed to stop a telegraphed obvious Palpatine blast and also failed to counter Dooku's slow tk assault on the structure aimed at Obi/Anakin while Yoda stood back like an idiot and watched.

Whether his throat was cut or not the simple gesture by his wand can slice Yoda open so whether he aims for his throat or some other body part will be gashed.

You have no proof their spines were destroyed you just speculate it was. Without any proof in the film you have nothing but yet throw a hissy over what part of Snape was actually cut.

Since when was Voldemort shown access to this knowledge and when did he use these words to implore this method of attack ?

Yoda can't easily knock Voldemort unconscious. You have zero proof koing Voldemort is easy or of it ever occurring. That's not to say it's impossible but the claims I have made are backed up on film whereas you have this battle mapped out in your mind already based on ability alone. Yoda has been disarmed on film showing by blocking massive amounts of energy he can lose grip of his saber. I can then make the claim based on evidence Yoda loses grip of his saber during a barrage of energy blasts from Voldemort. See how this works.

Yoda isn't a blur nor is he ever portrayed as being a blur like the twilight films where they purposely show blurry speed. Voldemort releases the fire serpent without any effort at all and simply laughs at his own greatness performing the said feat. To act like this is drawn out is ridiculous I mean Palpatine took longer to force lightning blast Yoda than Voldemort did to release this and that blast hit Yoda.

Yoda needed all his wits and skills to avoid the pods crashing towards him while this fiery basilisk due to it's sheer size and relentless will soon kill Yoda. Deep down even you yourself know this to be true.

Yoda isn't anywhere near as fast as you are making him out to be. Voldemort's energy blasts will probably quickly dislodge Yoda's saber making him an even easier target to kill. Couple that with the fact Voldemort has knowledge of Yoda and seeing as how he isn't a wizard who relies on sheer spell casting/reflexes but rather someone who has tk powers along with elusiveness and a laser sword he won't be foolish enough to stay in one place.

You yourself have fallen back into this position which I can also turn against you. Voldemort didn't become the most feared wizard in a realm of wizards by being stupid. He's combat savvy and the darkest wizard of all time. Yoda simply cannot keep up with his attacks for long.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Basically, your ‘fire control’ argument earlier was out of line.

Then that’s even better for Yoda. At that proximity, the sneak attack still miserably failed and Yoda displayed incredible precognition, Force Sense of hostile intentions, reflexes, and speed. At the distance from which Voldemort will be bombarding spells, Yoda will already be two steps ahead of the attack.

Because he wasn’t [B]"badass with his tk" at the beginning of the video .

Again, Palpatine is the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith and has abilities equivalent to Yoda. He has the matching precog/speed/reflexes to prevent Yoda from TK’ing his lightsaber out of his hands.

And that ‘office scene’ wasn’t combat. I swear I repeated this a dozen times already...

Because some of the best bodyguards the galaxy can offer would not be ready for someone they can hear leisurely making his way to the Emperor’s office.

And 9.6/10 Yoda will catch Voldemort off guard (thanks to his superhuman speed and reflexes) than vice versa since Yoda has advanced precog/sense at his disposal.

Again, absolutely no proof that Voldemort can use multiple spells while maintain control of Fiendfyre. And no proof that Voldemort can also apparate and maintain control of Fiendfyre.

And right out of the gate, Yoda, with the precog/sense to ‘see’ Voldemort will attempt to hit him with a spell coming from his wand, can, with his much faster reflexes and speed, just TK Voldemort or the instrument out of his hand then finish off the Dark Wizard from there.

Readers, you guys are going to have to judge whether this ‘office’ scene is reflective of Yoda’s actual reflexes and speed in combat. Quan and I will never be able to see eye to eye on this, I feel.

I find your lack of respect to Yoda disturbing.

Voldemort’s TK of Harry was utterly unimpressive no matter the way you look at the situation.

Yoda has used TK to incapacitate Clones and Royal Guards. Him not being able to TK Sidious and Dooku (one of whom he didn’t even want to kill), two of the strongest individuals shown in the films, doesn’t mean he won’t be able to TK someone who has far less reflexes and speed with no precognition to sense a telekinetic maneuver .

FALSE!!!

1. Yoda is not a sitting duck without his lightsaber.

2. Yoda returned from lower ground and landed on a precarious position before he was immediately bombarded by an attack that sent a master Jedi careening across Coruscant. 9.6/10 Yoda will be the one surprising Voldemort, not vice-versa.

3. Potter had no trouble dodging the “all kinds of hell” that Voldemort sent at him “in quick succession.” And neither will Yoda because the Grand Master has superhuman reflexes and speed and advanced precognition and senses.

A bold and untrue assumption. Yoda will up in Voldemort’s face with a lightsaber in no time or will be in range to unleash a debilitating TK.

Potter ran between stone pillars that had large openings for Voldemort to blast fireballs at Harry. The time that it took Voldemort to fire spells in rapid succession was too slow to hit an opponent that didn’t bother standing still.

Yoda, with his speed, would have no difficulty avoiding Voldemort's ranged attacks.

Wild Yoda appears!
Wild Yoda uses Force Valor!
Wild Yoda’s evasiveness, speed, attack, strength, and health sharply increases!
Wild Yoda uses Quick Attack!
It’s super effective!
Voldemort faints!

OR

Voldemort uses Avada Kadavra!
But the attack missed!
Wild Yoda uses Close Combat!
It’s super effective!
Voldemort faints!

OR

Voldemort uses Avada Kadavra!
But the attack missed!
Wild Yoda uses Telekinesis!
It’s super effective!
Voldemort faints! [/B]

Glad you admit two clones trying to use the element of surprise they already lost which resulted in their deaths isn't applicable here. Yoda wasn't two steps ahead of any of the more highly skilled opponents such as Dooku or Palpatine which I have went through step by step already.

Palpatine was just caught completely off guard by the push so suggesting he can't be disarmed when we've already seen him blown off his guard unsuspecting just doesn't add up. Here's the point Yoda can strike when the opportunity presents itself but doesn't have the precise skill to pinpoint in the heat of battle the lightsaber directly out of his hand just like he won't be able to do so to Voldemort with blasts/magic coming at him either. The best he can hope for is a push similar to what he did to Palpatine.

Some of the best bodyguards don't even approach a jedi's power/skill so regardless of how elite of warriors they were which you claim without any feats to their names they weren't shown to be anywhere near Yoda's level. Palpatine knows the jedi needed to be wiped out and to overwhelm them with a clone army which suggests in small numbers they are nothing to even slightly above average jedi let alone Yoda.

Yoda might push him off guard but unlike the foot soldiers he defeated with one or so of these attacks it isn't happening to Voldemort. You need to cite proof of Voldemort easily losing his wand by force.

So despite the other wizard using Fiendfyre and showing the ability in trying to escape with his abilities and Voldemort showing he can dissipate the fire you feel he loses his other abilities while this one is being implemented. You need to back up your claim since there is no mention of this in the movie and directly conflicts with common sense. It's like saying since Voldemort never cooked a medium rare steak despite it not being rock science that he can't do so. If you believe he can't perform his other abilities you need to back u pyour claim Fiendfyre limits your abilities while in use. Simple.

Yoda doesn't tk a lightsaber out of anyone's hand despite moving all over the place so acting as if it's something he can easily do you need to cite proof to back up your claim he can easily disarm him. I already have proof Yoda loses his saber when pressed with energy so I have actual evidence Voldemort's energy attacks dislodge his saber unlike you.

Yes, and this isn't the only scene when in combat by Yoda. Yoda while in combat wit his saber is busy dodging and reacting he isn't easily tking his opponents into submission(the highly skilled ones) or disarming his opponents.

My point is Voldemort actually disarmed an opponent. Yoda hasn't. You can downplay it however you want but Voldemort is shown to be doing so while instead you exaggerate Yoda's feats against clones or featless bodyguards.

Yoda didn't want to kill Dooku but disarm or defeat him indeed he did. Windu disarmed and defeated Palpatine as well. The fact Yoda was unsuccessful at defeating Dooku who was less skilled than Yoda shows Yoda doesn't easily dispatch worthy opponents. Are you suggesting Voldemort isn't a worthy opponent ?

1.I agree Yoda isn't but he's far less capable without his saber as opposed to with it. That's A FACT. Also, simply absorbing hard energy blasts will also affect hm as seen by the Palpatine fight at the end.

2.I get the attack sent a defenseless Windu after a prolonged exposure due to win and what not out a considerable distance. Yoda hit by a small amount of the force while in a short time frame went flying as well. The only time Palpatine can launch someone and who knows if Windu was killed prior to the fall is under defenseless/prolonged exposure. Big whoop.

3.Potter was also hit and should have been killed as well but due to the reasons we both know to be true is why Potter survived his encounters with Voldemort. The environment also benefited Harry which isn't available here.

Please. Yoda's tk if it hits will just throw Voldemort back. Quit equating random featless clones and bodyguards to Lord Voldemort.

If Yoda has something to get behind I do believe he can dodge the fireballs if he runs in the opposite direction. You have to also realize while on the same level Voldmeort was going to hit Harry had he not used his wand to meet the energy head on. This energy will probably cause Yoda to drop his saber leaving him even more vulnerable.

I believe he would due to the sheer versatility of Voldemort's attacks along with his ability to create distance at will.

The rest is just fan fiction of battles you've acted out in your living room. 😖hifty: I will let the readers decide what they believe is more likely of our two theories based on the character's behavior, intelligence, and range of abilities.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
I have already explained this, but here I say it again:

1. It wasn’t a combat situation. The Battlezone and this thread assume both opponents are prepared for a fight.
2. It was a plot-driven sequence designed to set up the fight that takes place in the Senate Hall.

That’s a faulty defense. Potter and Voldemort were engaged in combat, with one clearly trying to kill the other. Yoda and Sidious don’t start fighting till both of them ignite their lightsabers.

[B]If Yoda isn’t in battle mode, then he hasn’t activated his Force Valor to overcome his elderly infirmities. Therefore, he would have the reflexes and speed of an 880 year old of his species, which would roughly translate to the reflexes and speed of an 88 year old human being. Do you expect an 88 year old man to evade an extremely fast lightning bolt?

Palpatine had the power to conceal his Dark Side persona and block any Jedi Force Sense on his true nature. For all we know, he could have very blocked Yoda’s precognition. And even if that isn’t the case, Sidious clearly didn’t intend on killing Yoda, otherwise he wouldn’t have just released a teasing bolt but rather unleashed a storm. There wasn’t a truly hostile intention from the get-go, and as a result no reason for Yoda to kick in Force Valor.

And honestly, your argument here leads nowhere. Yes, if Yoda wasn’t in battle-mode and didn’t use Force Valor, an 8-year old could beat him up.

THE BATTLEZONE AND THIS THREAD HAS YODA PREPARED TO FIGHT. THEREFORE, HIS OLD AGE FRAILTIES WON’T BE PLAYING A FACTOR WHATOSEVER!

WTF? I’d like to see Voldemort’s vaunted reflexes and speed that you keep touting fare against the rapid succession of high velocity repulsorpods.

And please, Dumbledore never “looked like he was trying to keep up” against Voldemort. In fact, if it wasn’t for Harry trying to walk into the fray, the Headmaster wouldn’t have broken his concentration and would have drowned the Dark Wizard in his aqua bubble.

Watch the video over and over again. Palpatine fired a teasing bolt [; he wasn’t going all out. And for crying out loud, they were not fighting.

He was hit by one Force Lightning in a moment where he wasn’t prepared for combat and his aged infirmities played a significant factor.

And he was never hit by Sidious’s Force Storm in actual combat; he successfully applied tutaminis to block and redirect the blast.

Again, you fail to consider Yoda’s superhuman reflexes and speed and advanced senses and precognition. Apart from the ‘office scene,’ which is contradicted by all other of Yoda’s showings and isn’t reflective of the Grand Master’s combat prowess, you have zero evidence as to how Voldemort will manage to keep up with a tiny creature that’s essentially moving as a blur and can easily reach close distance to slash him with a lightsaber or disarm/incapacitate him with telekinesis within a particular range.

You won’t be convincing anyone by saying “I see him easily overwhelming Yoda with ranged attacks” if you cannot provide any counterevidence as to how Voldemort can kill someone who can ‘see’ his attack ahead in the future, can ‘see’ where the Dark Wizard apparates, can dodge/block attacks instantly, and can move far, far faster than Voldemort’s senses can sustain.

It’s like me having a shotgun and attempting to kill a rabbit that’s moving at a bionic speed. No matter how powerful are my bullets, they are useless if my target knows where I am aiming and is two steps ahead with insane speed backing it up. Not only that, apart from the fact that this rabbit can cut me in half with its razor sharp teeth, it can also snatch the shotgun out of my hands or throw me at any time and knock me out cold. Furthermore, if I do happen to have it within my sights and fire my bullet, it has the power to stop it and even send it back to me. Lovely [/B]

2.Same argument can be made for Harry Potter's survival throughout the films. Voldemort in a battle scenario destroys Harry in a fair matchup with either able to be destroyed but in the movies wasn't going to kill him no matter what.

No, it actually isn't fault at all. Harry was facing Bellatrix whereas voldemort wasn't fighting Harry until he turned around and tried to attack Voldemort first. That's when Voldemort reacted and said nuh uh, padawan.

Yoda didn't have to have his lightsaber out he could have seen the attack was coming even outside of precog because it was obvious and redirected it with his hands. He was too slow to react.

Show me a video where force valor is explained within the films.

You're speculating again. You can make up as many theories without any proof as you want to but we do know Yoda was unable to sense it and react accordingly. Palpatine did intend to kill him that blast wasn't enough just like Luke survived without any long term effects from prolonged exposure under force lightning. You can't even proof Windu was killed prior to the fall so really your just dancing around in every direction hoping something sticks from this entirely speculative argument.

Again, one video with force valor explained in the films would be nice.

Voldemort would apparate right out of the way and probably follow it up with an energy blast headed right at Palpatine. Unlike Yoda Voldemort doesn't have to close the distance and also has the abilities to easily avoid the pods.

Dumbledore's concentration wasn't broken Voldemort simply broke free from the bubble. Voldemort didn't immediately break free from the bubble when Dumbledore tk'd Harry down anyways it happened a few moments after. Voldemort quickly seized the opportunity for the next attack which put Dumbledore on his ass.

Palpatine fired an attack which hit Yoda. And going by your aqua bubble woulda could shoulds killed Voldemort had Palpatine continued pressing an out Yoda he would have killed Yoda as well.

Yoda didn't successfully redirect the blast otherwise it wouldn't have sent him off the pod while Palpatine managed to hand onto the pod thus holding the higher ground advantage.

Yoda isn't ever shown on screen to be moving as a blur so quit acting like this is clearly shown throughout the films. I've given other examples of Yoda's horrific reaction time against an equally skilled opponent such as Dooku. Yoda can defeat the grunts of his universe with his abilities and easily but that to me was never in question. The question is how he handles himself against someone with similar skill/reflexes. When we've seen Yoda in these situations his reflexes aren't amazing or overwhelming and by comparison Voldemort seems more impressive against Dumbledore than Yoda has against Palpatine. Yoda completely failed and admitted as much.

Yoda can't see every attack coming his way and can't somehow be ahead of the game when reacting to the nastiness Voldemort brings forth here.

I will remind you again.

Yoda was disarmed by an energy attack.

Voldemort possesses and has shown it's in character to use multiple energy attacks while in combat.

Yoda was unable to stop or proactively react to Dooku's tk assault while Yoda stood helplessly and watched on.

You will attempt again to hype the clone/bodyguard feats. When Yoda is in combat with someone he isn't two steps ahead of anyone as Dooku was ahead of him and easily escaped while Yoda seemed two steps behind.

Yoda also seemed two steps behind Palpatine who achieved higher ground and sent Yoda flying to the bottom of the room in defeat.

Twist it all you want when he fought two equally/greater/lesser skilled opponents he failed in his objective and was only reactionary in both instances not two steps ahead like you claim.

You need to back up your claims with convincing evidence against someone more credible than random schlubs Obi can easily destroy in combat with little effort.

5.44 into the video or so you can a young padawan easily take out multiple clones. Yet somehow Yoda while in direct pairing with Obi destroying a small amount of these troopers is supposed to be impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vmz1r51R3I&feature=fvst

Originally posted by Korto Vos
You yourself conceded that Voldemort won’t be apparating left and right because it’s out of character, even though that’s the only move he can do if he wishes to stand a chance in this fight.

200 feet/60 meters is chum change for someone like Yoda who can jump multiple stories in seconds. The Grand Master can close distances [B]very quickly for a TK or a lightsaber assault. It’s hilarious to read that you think that Voldemort only needs to apparate once to kill Yoda.

1. Palpatine, as a result of his own powers, obscured the aura of the Dark Side within him for decades, until the very end of the Clone Wars. He was a master at cloaking.
2. But, in battle, Yoda would be able to clearly sense his malicious goal to kill(and no, that ‘office scene’ wasn’t malicious because Sidious was taunting, not trying to kill Yoda- it wasn’t combat) him.
3. Voldemort has no ability to hide his malevolent intentions or mask his intense Dark Side permeations. Thus, Yoda will be all over Voldemort’s next move. [/B]

Yoda will have to be watching his ass the entire time not hopping and skipping his way to Voldemort. I think it's amusing you believe Yoda will just easily evade and cut him in half despite being aware of how quickly Voldemort can unleash his spells/attacks.

1.Yoda was aware of himself though and his motives for attempting to kill every last jedi so he knew Palpatine wants him dead. Precog failed him badly in this instance.

2.Attacking someone with a force blast is malicious it's not designed to give you warm fuzzies. Yoda was also unprepared for the force storm because he lost his saber.

3.Palpatine wasn't masking his intentions he held up his hand and blasted him in one of the slowest most obvious attacks I can ever recall seeing. It was painfully slow and obvious while Yoda looked on stupified.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
I explained this earlier. However, if you are not convinced, I am inclined to think that others following this debate would see the logical basis behind the Jedi POV argument.

Did you completely ignore what I wrote before? Yoda had [B]no intention to slay his ”old Padawan”. Secondly, how did Yoda have ample time to disarm Dooku? The man broke a pillar that was about to fall onto Kenobi and Skywalker. Yoda, at his height, cannot disarm Dooku from a saber lock. The dynamics of swordfighting change with the styles of your opponents. Yoda, at his position, would have to perform an aerial maneuver if he wished to remove Dooku’s lightsaber. And that would risk precious time to prevent the pillar from crushing Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Furthermore, Anakin, with an intent to kill, disarmed Dooku that quickly; there’s nothing to suggest that if he didn’t have this purpose, like Yoda, he would have lacerated the Count’s hands that rapidly.

No, they are completely different situations. Yoda, being the paragon Jedi, would never gamble the lives of his fellow compatriots. He had to be positive that the pillar wouldn’t accidently roll over Skywalker and Kenobi.

And since a human being isn’t exactly heavy, and we are assured Voldemort won’t be firing X-wings at Yoda, Yoda won’t need deep focus or concentration to fling the Dark Wizard like a ragdoll.

How can you make such an absurd assumption? The Royal Guards and 501st Clone Troopers were skilled elite combatants (that are stronger, faster, and quicker than Voldemort physically) that Yoda easily dismantled.

Against Dooku, Yoda wasn’t going for the kill.

And against Sidious, he was exceptionally aggressive .The Dark Lord of the Sith was overwhelmed by the pace of Yoda’s attacks to the extent that he had to flee to higher ground (which isn’t available in this duel). And did you see YODA’S EYES during the ‘lightning exchange’; that clearly reflected a man with a definite ‘killer edge.’

Are you kidding me? Look at this:
Domination
Look at Sidious’s reaction at 2:12 – it’s clearly the visage of one who is struggling.
Look at Yoda’s reaction at 2:14- it’s clearly the countenance of who is aggressive (“bring it beotch!”).

Are you for real? Watch that video above and watch it again, taking note of the facial expressions of Yoda (3:27) vs. Sidious (3:28-3:29). Yoda has utilized tutaminis to take control of the Force Storm and redirect into pure energy that had Sidious overpowered. You see Yoda directing the counterattack at 3:31, which causes the explosion at 3:32 from the sheer chaos and power of the exchange. Yoda definitely won that sequence. The movie explicitly depicts his victory.

How can you possibly say Palpatine won that exchange? That makes absolutely no sense- you’re just trying to find a way to downplay Yoda. Yoda, being lightweight, would of course experience some recoil; unfortunately, he was right at the ledge of the repulsorpod, and that’s why he fell hundreds of feet.

Sidious slaughtered 3 members of the Jedi Council in 9 seconds and only lost to Mace after an extended battle because Windu utilizes Vapaad, which is effectual against Dark Side practitioners. He was Dooku’s (who himself was a master swordsman) greater, and matched Yoda toe to toe until he had flee to higher ground to avoid being overwhelmed.

Fact of the matter is that Sidious is considerably faster (and I certainly mean a lot ) than Voldemort, and there should be nothing held against Yoda for him fleeing to higher ground. And Yoda is slightly quicker than Sidious.

1. Therefore, for him to TK a human would occur instantly…
2. …such as the two times where he handled the Royal Guards and the Clone troopers.
3. Jedi POV for the TK feats in the duels.

That you did. You made Yoda’s feat even more remarkable. And Sidious hit him with a bolt, not a continuous lightning barrage. Quit confusing the two.

I’m slightly infuriated at the fact that you did not read anything I stated on this subject in my first rebuttal.

Yoda didn’t want to kill Dooku. He was battling someone he had a close connection with, for crying out loud.

Secondly, if you didn’t realize, Episode III is part of the Prequel Trilogy, and therefore Sidious is supposed to live. Therefore, as well as the Grand Master fought, Yoda is plot-driven to not be able to kill the Sith Lord.

And as I said before, Yoda realized before he redirected the Senate pod that the Sith had adapted and succeeded while the Jedi Order under his leadership had remained static. Hence, the Sith could not be defeated that day regardless of the duel’s outcome, and the Grand Master understood that he had lost the fight before it even began. That coupled with the arrival of Clone troopers forced him to retreat. Despite the thoughts that raged through the Jedi’s mind, Yoda still was aggressive to the degree that he was ‘winning’ the lightsaber contest (since Sidious had to flee to higher ground) and later ‘won’ the lightning/energy exchange.

Finally Yoda’s statement of, “Failed, I have,” is a reference to his bitter disappointment that he couldn’t instigate positive change within the Order and allowed the Sith to destroy the Jedi Knights under his leadership.

The burdens, doubts, and thoughts that plagued Yoda’s mind in both of those fights will be completely absent in this duel against Voldemort. He will fight without any reservations and will even be more deadly than he was against the two Sith Lords.

Your argument that he isn’t “aggressive enough” is simply invalid. [/B]

Yoda did intend todefeat his old padawan. Yoda could have simply overpowered or used tk to attack Dooku in the meantime not stare helplessly on as he did so. It's another slow drawn out process while you claim he's two steps forward despite the feat taking considerable time while Yoda's busy doing nothing but watching.

Anakin let his rage go and didn't intend to kill him until Palpatine goaed him into doing so. It's that simple. If Anakin wanted him dead completely on his own he wouldn't have had to be talked into it by Palpatine.

Yoda still had ample time to react not sit there helplessly.

Voldemort's also easily without any concentration at all moved a dead body of a giant. This to me shows he can easily move the tinier Yoda without any effort as well.

We also have this tk controlled feat up into her death showing little to no concentration keeping her suspended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH07EdKIM08&NR=1

These guards are easily destroyed by younger padawans not even in the same category as Obi Wand yet you try to pass these off as exceptional feats from someone of Yoda's caliber. Don't insult the little green buddy by doing so. These guys are worse than a junior varsity squad compared to Yoda.

Yoda wanted to defeat him and Anakin successfully defeated him before ultimately deciding to kill him.

😂 His eyes only showed his resolve. He was completely committed and I agree he wanted to kill Palpatine it's the sole reason he was there in the first place. Voldemort doesn't need higher ground on Yoda and can create distance any time he wants to and by knowing his abilities why wouldn't he ?

Yoda ends up on his ass and later on admits he failed. It doesn't get any more clear than that and out of his own little disgusting mouth.

Yoda didn't win that exchange. Yoda was sent off the pod while Palpatine is laughing with no long term effects/damage. Yoda successfully redirected some of it against Palpatine but not enough to win the exchange unless your position is Yoda wanted to skydive.

Windu defeated Palpatine and they don't ever break down the different fighting styles in the movies to my knowledge. Palptine also held his own against Yoda in saber combat and it's smart to go to higher ground only an idiot wouldn't steer the fight towards an advantage for themselves. It makes me question Yoda's critical thinking in battle since he's foolish enough to allow Palpatine to have the higher ground.

Sidious isn't faster with his force attacks by any means. Voldemort's reflexes and the sheer ease in which he lets loose is a lot more impressive than Palpatine's force attacks. Palpatine might be able to move faster and jump around quicker but don't act like he's flash like here. Windu was fast enough to disarm and defeat him.

1.It would occur just as quick as Voldemort used it against Harry this I agree.

2.I've shown a padawan take on and defeat multiple clones before he was overwhelmed. Not impressive.

3.Not portrayed as such in the movie. It calls everything into question and even you yourself don't believe it you are just trying to do so to steer some opinions in your favor.

Yoda sent reeling back after his best efforts to redirect it completely isn't impressive it's desperate.

Yoda wanted to defeat him like once again Anakin did without outright killing him to do so.

Just as Voldemort isn't supposed to kill Harry despite him greatly exceeding his skill/power.

Yoda still had the chance to kill him so despite the other jedi remaining static only did he admit to failure in letting the opportunity slip through his fingers to kill him. I have no idea how anyone could see otherwise and Yoda didn't know he was going to fail to do so until he did so.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
The purpose behind drawing light to these examples is to show how much raw power Yoda has for offensive and defensive telekinesis.

On the contrary, the guards were ready for an intruder. And even if they were “ready” to the nth degree, [B]nothing would be able to impede the TK’KO that Yoda let loose with a casual wave of his hand.

Even without considering Jedi POV, what Yoda demonstrates on-screen is still more than enough to own Voldemort.

Yoda has metahuman speed and reflexes. Voldemort does not. Ergo, Yoda can TK objects and humans faste than Voldemort.

How is him “tking out the guards” not impressive?They never get back up. As visible as it is onscreen, even if Yoda didn’t break their spines, he causes them to be in some pseudo-coma state for who knows how long.

1. Yoda will not just be running laps around Voldemort or scampering for his life like Harry Potter. He’s an offensive player who will moving with bionic pace to engage the Dark Wizard in close combat. Even against Sidious, when he had to employ defensive TK to stop and redirect the Senate pod, his overall intention was to use the repulsorpod to distract the Sith Lord so he can resume fighting him in close quarters.
2. I cannot quantify the exact range when Yoda’s TK can be utilized but the fact that he can jump stories in seconds demonstrates he can be within range to hit Voldemort as soon as the battle commences.
3. If the TK doesn’t manage to KO Voldemort (which I don’t see how it wouldn’t, since it takes out other humanoids rather handily), it would certainly remove the Deathstick (which, I would think, would be quite glad to be out old Voldy’s grimy hands lol), thereby leaving Yoda an open avenue to slaughter the Dark Wizard.
4. Hmm, let’s see. He blocked and redirected Force Lightning both times against Dooku and Sidiousin combat.

What? Neville was standing still, something Yoda will certainly not be doing.

This is ridiculous. Your only major argument has been to fall back to this lowest showing in which Yoda isn’t even ready for battle.

You go ahead and convince yourself that since the evidence indicates that Yoda blocked and redirected all lightning blasts in combat. This is once again based on Yoda’s lowest showing in the ‘office scene’ where Yoda isn’t prepared to fight.

Y’know, I showed in my opening argument that Jedi can block Force Lightning with a lightsaber, and by extension, other concentrated energy attacks via tutaminis. You see Obi-Wan doing it, and you see Mace Windu doing it. Unless you are going to argue now that Yoda’s lightsaber is of a different composition that fails to similarly block these types of attacks, then yes, Yoda can block with his saber. [/B]

The guards weren't prepared for it and were reacting when they saw him enter but weren't expecting this attack.

Yoda didn't casually wave his hand and defeat anyone with exceptional skill. If a centaur came at him I'd agree he can easily own it but other than that not just tking exceptional wizards in the potter world either.

No, it isn't and I have already explained why countless times.

Here is a scene with Umbridge showing impressive tk control over an aggressive centaur.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h2PlGikPZY

Now look at the sheer control she had and easily while at the same time easily deflecting an arrow due to her skill and she's nowhere near the upper level of Voldemort or Dumbledore.

The guards were close enough to the wall to be defeated. They weren't a respectable enemy anywhere near Yoda's level so color me unimpressed.

1.K. So you admit he will be more out in the open while Voldemort has the ability to apparate to create more distance while at the same time shooting energy blasts, killing curses, torture curses, tking his saber away, cutting him with his wand, shooting dark matter at him, shooting flames at him, or using Fiendfyre. Which resulted in Yoda being ripped off the pod while Palpatine remained safely on it. Great strategy Yoda.

2.Voldemort can shoot attacks in moments so it's a tradeoff. If he starts leapoing he won't be in the best defensive position he can be in I mean we see what results when he tries to block the force lightning barrage after closing the distance.

3.While it isn't a possibility it isn't likely since Yoda has been disarmed while in combat unlike Voldemort.

4.Yes, but against Palpatine he was struck once, lost his saber once, and fell off a pod after trying to redirect the effects once.

Neville was going into battle Yoda will be on the ground and will be hit by Voldemort's attacks he won't dodge them all.

That's not his only showing which calls into question his precog/reflexes. You continue to play up him destroying foes younger padawans can also destroy on film.

Force lightning also knocked off his saber and hit his hands so why wouldn't I think Voldemort hitting Yoda with an attack is out of the question......Dooku also hit his hands with force lightning. When has Yoda evaded it anyways ?

Not saying it wouldn't/couldn't happen but if Yoda hasn't successfully done so it isn't likely to happen I am simply going over what has happened on film.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
It kills you if it hits your body, but it [B]won’t kill you if there is a Force-protecting armor that can dissipate/absorb the harmful energy and allow a master practitioner to gather the raw energy and redirect it into a pure energy pulse. In Yoda v. Sidious, the energy exchange between both of them built up to a critical level, and caused the explosion that catapulted both backwards.

Weak sauce?. Dooku’s Force Lightning would smash Voldemort’s skeletal body against the ground. Sidious’s Force Storm would ravage him.

That’s a logical fallacy, if I ever saw one. Just because it doesn’t happen it won’t happen in this fight?

If Yoda knows Voldemort can do magic with a wand, the first thing he’ll do after he dodges the first attack [that he knew was coming] would be to disarm his foe’s instrument. He will employ an unavoidable/unblockable offensive TK similar to what he utilized against the Royal Guards and the Clone troopers.

Yoda isn’t stupid. He can sense the powerful Dark ripples in the Force pervaded by Voldemort. He isn’t going to waste time allowing the wizard to conjure up a fiery snake. He will aim to end this battle very quickly.

Do you realize by the time Voldemort is finished chuckling conjuring up his fiery serpent and ready to command it, Yoda could have already disarmed his wind, incapacitated him, or be close to finishing him with a lightsaber?

And you do understand how little time Voldemort has in general? Remember how I stated in my opening argument that Yoda would see the Dark Wizard similar to a Clone trooper. Let us return to that.

These magical spells are slow enough for human wizards to be able to sidestep. Therefore, they are not as rapid as bullets; logically, the blasts from the futuristic Star Wars guns are likely faster than bullets. Jedi are able to dodge gunfire and have the reflexes to block them; Yoda himself simultaneously engaged at least 9 Clones from the 501st, evading all of the fire and crippling/killing all of them with his lightsaber or with telekinesis. When Yoda senses how the strong the shroud of the Dark Side is within Voldemort, he isn’t going to wait for “Voldemort to keep him busy with his offensive powers.” He’s going to dodge the one or two spells the Dark Wizard will fire at him thanks to his advanced precognition and senses, rush forward with his herculean speed and immediately use telekinesis to either knock out the Elder Wand or the wizard himself- it’s the most effective technique and one that Yoda, an experienced combatant, would exploit.

The only way for Voldemort to survive would if he apparates in time. Of course, when he materializes, Yoda would have Force Sense-d his arrival and evaded the incoming attack thanks to his precognition. And then the same scenario will repeat. You yourself admitted that spam-Apparition is out of character for Voldemort- thus, it’s only a matter of time (if not within the first 30-45 seconds of the fight) before the Elder Wand is disarmed and a lightsaber is rammed through Voldemort’s chest.

Even if you can make the assumption that magical fire rate = blaster fire rate (which I think is slightly unreasonable), in the Jedi Incursion on the Temple, Yoda was able to dodge multiple blaster fire coming in from all directions and still rush forward and eliminate his opposition. His movement > > Voldemort at his quickest.

If that’s the case, then we don’t know if that flame incantation was Fiendfyre because I certainly don’t hear Voldemort yelling, “FIENDFYRE! NYEAHHH!” .

The movies are adaptations of the books, and it’s very likely they would have Voldemort opening with an attack that happened in the book and is his trademark go-to option when interacting with others.

Sure, except he won’t have the time for “a lot of other attacks”.

No, I have not made any “excuses.” Anyone reading my arguments would know that the Royal Guards were prepared and that they, along with the 501st and Voldemort, have no way of defending against an immediate telekinetic wave.

Anyone reading my arguments would also know that you are trying to cheapen Yoda by constantly relying on a plot-driven scene that involved no combat and had Yoda not ready for a fight. The Battlezone assumes combatants are in battle-mode and doesn’t consider their lowest showing.

1. Again, there is zero proof on what can be possible in a controlled Fiendfyre. And I have already argued against this in much greater detail above.

2. Yes, it is in character for Yoda to TK his opponents into submission. [/B]

Hahahahaha. 😂 Luke, Palpatine, and Yoda have survived the force attacks. Fatal or really dangerous yes with prolonged exposure but please don't act like it's so powerful when we've seen people get hit by it for multiple seconds without any long term fatal effects.

Just like Voldemort would employ more teleporting in battle due to create space between the two. You can't have it both ways.

Yoda isn't stupid......Really....really.....reallly ??????

The guy just walks into a room with the dark sith lord who has avoided him all those years and is about to turn the republic into a monarchy and he gets hit by a force blast while still sporting hos rocker. that's the definition of stupid. He's the poster boy for stupid in this instance. He doesn't even seriously wound Palpatine in the entire fight yet you conclude he makes short work of Voldemort. Additionally, unlike a jedi/sith the effect of tk can be maintained on an opponent ala the centaur without focusing solely on doing so.

Yeah, Yoda is that fast in battle...points to Yoda standing there harmlessly locked in sabers with Dooku as he waits for Dooku to finish his tk assault. In your attempts to steer the debate away from his major two on screen battles I will always pull you back in this direction.

Human wizards training their reflexes to become better attuned with this. Let's not fool anyone here. Star wars blaster fire doesn't seem as fast to see as me or anywhere near as formidable as rapid machine gun fire. Yoda like against the energy blasting done by Palpatine will be fighting for his saber just warding off a blast. The clones and what not show off Yoda's abilities quite well and obviously there are certain things each character does better than the other.

Voldemort can't flip around and doesn't wield a sword in combat but likewise Yoda can't use long ranged attacks or create fire magic which can pursue the enemy.

This is about matching up. Voldemort wields the same type of energy attacks albeit more powerful ones imo than Palpatine so we see how Yoda has fared against the attacks Voldemort brings to the table which he has come into contact with. It's a question of how these two stack up against each other due to their own strengths and weaknesses. I'd say it's obvious Voldemort's strengths are too much for Yoda to overcome and he quickly dies to the options Voldemort has along th the distance he can create any time he wants with full knowledge of Yoda's abilities out of the gate. Voldemort isn't stupid and critical thinking in quick response is something we see all over Voldemort's duel with Dumbledore who possessed the Elder Wand.

I don't see Yoda as that fast nor does his battle with Palpatine also suggest as much. If he knows where the pods are coming before the strike he should be a step ahead but it's obvious he was reacting as fast as he was able in a quick time battle.

I think Yoda will be able to avoid attacks here and there but with one opponent he faced later on he didn't dodge any of his energy blasts so it's unreasonable to ignore a similar attack Voldemort uses all the time from his arsenal while focusing on abc logic in an entirely different situation.

Every time he used the killing curse he spoke the words therefore without any proof of this it's just another energy blast. In the movies he doesn't need to speak Fiendfyre so who cares how it happens in the book when the movie clearly goes about it differently

Why not ? Voldemort can give himself the space he needs any time he wants.

Still says something about his precog whether he's ready or not his precog should have told him to expect an attack when I could even see it coming and I'm a mere human.

1.How is there zero proof ? He sets it loose upon Dumbledore until Dumbledore defeats it with his wand and sends the flames back at Voldemort. We've seen someone who can't control them and they still pursued everything and didn't stop. Voldemort clearly controls the basilisk which Dumbledore defeats.

2.Weaker, schlubs--sure.Highly skilled opponents--nah.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
No, it is in character. When Yoda fights the 501st, his offensive TK also hurls the weapon out of the Clone Trooper’s hands. Therefore, Yoda can very much apply TK to disarm the Dark Wizard.

LOL? This is completely irrelevant. Unlike your regard for Yoda, I have always acknowledged Voldemort as having tremendous firepower. And what about his duel with Dumbledore?

Hmm, perhaps I’ll play by your game. ..

…Since Voldemort failed to kill his two primary adversaries, Harry Potter and Dumbledore, he lacks the killer edge to finish off his opponents. Ergo, Voldemort doesn’t have what’s necessary to defeat Yoda.

Have you forgotten how easily he blocked Dooku’s Force Lightning? And sorry, by the time Voldemort blasts his first two Killing Curses that Yoda dodges, this duel could very much be over with the Grand Master victorious.

I have already gone into the circumstances of Harry Potter but not Dumbledore as of yet. Voldemort left due to the Ministry showing up. He was outnumbered and really didn't have to kill Dumbledore anyways. The opportunity presented itself so he obliged. Dumbledore later dies anyway. Yoda didn't outlive or bring about the destruction of Palpatine either.

Dooku didn't possess even the raw power of Palpatine who pales in comparison to Voldemort's power. So when the power is amped up Yoda clearly struggles and has been disarmed while attempting to block it.

I won't be able to get on here past tonight for days but I do feel this debate has run it's course. The only thing I will be posting is a summation of my points along with an addendum to address any last minute points he disagrees with aside from the stuff we've already covered and then some.

Anybody who has been following the progress of this debate from the beginning and has been reading all of the arguments posted by both sides would notice the ridiculousness of your last rebuttal, Quanchi.

The majority of my counters were ignored and the same points were repeated. This was incredibly infuriating for me because I want to be able to address every single paragraph. However, when I’m forced to replicate almost 95% of my last rebuttal and required to read through cringing replies , one can understand the amount of irritation I possess and my rationale for saying “Enough is enough.” I mean no offense to you; you have been a fantastic opponent and have made a solid case for Voldemort- yet, your last counterargument was ad nauseam and ad infinitum.

Thus, this will be *final* response to this thread. I will provide an encompassing discussion, supported by earlier ‘Repetitions.’ I won't bother with QUOTE-RESPONSE because I'll just be saying the same stuff over and over again.

Are you clearly unable to recognize the faultiness of your entire argument? I’m sure everyone else has figured out where your logic has failed. I didn’t think I would need to spoon-feed, but I guess I have no choice but to explain it to you now:

I shall begin with the Jedi POV contention.

Repetition #1:

… if you are not convinced, I am inclined to think that others following this debate would see the logical basis behind the Jedi POV argument.

… the "Jedi POV" comes into play for any TK that occurs in Jedi vs. Sith fights. The TK feats might come off as 'slow' perceiving it from a Jedi's frame of reference (since Jedi have fantastic perception/senses). However, a human would witness them as moderately fast. You said that Jedi POV was “impossible to gauge.” However, observational reference frame with relation to the state of motion of an observer is a well-known concept in physics. Lucas’s comment on the limitations of human actors is a valid statement since Jedi have superhuman senses, reflexes, and speed. The Jedi POV is a completely logical argument that I have made. With human senses, we would only notice the battles as blurs (such as the case in Twilight, but something that Lucas cannot cinematographically replicate), but from the frame of reference of a Jedi, we would perceive the duels as they were shown in the movies. With an ‘equivalent’ sensory system, we would see how they were played out by the actors.

I can further rationalize this line of thought because the Jedi vs. Sith fights in the films involved the strongest individuals. Therefore, even from a Jedi POV, the duels were fast (which is what we watch in the movies). As a result, any of the “slow” TK you think of, such as Yoda’s redirection of the repulsorpod or Dooku’s breakage of a pillar, would have been by no means slow by normal human observation.

Again, it’s obvious you don’t agree with this specific line of thought. Therefore, I will lay it out to those who will be determining this debate to decide its validity. So, you can continue wasting your time trying to discount Jedi POV. What you think means nothing to me on this matter.

Now let’s start with one statement.

This is what you said:

The Royal Guards and 501st Clone troopers are “shlubs.”

I will proceed from this statement.

Emperor’s Royal Guards:

They are the Emperor’s bodyguards, who protect the most important man in the galaxy. They are elite soldiers selected from the military for their incredible physical condition, extreme focus, keen senses, and quick reflexes; essentially, the Red Guards are the Secret Service on steroids. They have superb armor underneath their trademark crimson robes.

You remark that these guardians are nowhere near the level of Jedi/Sith. Yet, everything about them suggests they would be at least around the level of an average Knight. Sure, they are nowhere near the Jedi Grand Master, but that’s a different story since Yoda is far beyond most others.

501st Clone Troopers :

Clones, in general, were raised on Kamino and trained since ‘birth’ to be the ultimate soldiers. As clones of Jango Fett, who stalemated Kenobi in Episode II, they were, like the Royal Guards, brawny and had extreme focus, acute senses, and swift reflexes.

The 501st was an elite legion of Clone troopers that were outfitted with excellent Phase II armor, and equipped with first-rate weaponry.

You countered that a Padawan slew a couple of these “shlubs” after he surprised them. Oh yeah, I forgot, it was an ambush. Once the Clones recovered, they shot him down handily. You see, that was actually what you can call as being unprepared, as opposed to your claims that the Royal Guards had no anticipation of Yoda.

See, when you have the door open and Yoda walking into a room in this fashion:

Yoda’s stroll [2:05-2:16]

it’s a tad bit impossible for the best bodyguards in Coruscant to not hear the grunting and the tapping of the cane onto the ground in the corridor.

Back to what I was saying.

Yoda effortlessly crippled two Royal Guards and crippled/killed four 501st Clones with his telekinesis. Based on what I described above, all of you can decide whether they are “shlubs” and “unskilled” enemies; all of you can also decide whether Yoda’s incapacitation of these superbly- armored, powerfully built warriors was impressive or not.

You know what I think? That a Royal Guard and 501st Clone trooper, both of whom are fabulous soldiers that have better strength, constitution (ignoring their advanced equipment altogether), speed, and reflexes than Voldemort wouldn’t be classified as “shlubs.”

Voldermort (who has above average reflexes since he is a seasoned duelist), a Royal Guard, and a Clone trooper are human/humanoids whose senses are roughly on the same plane. This would be the only reason why Voldemort would be able to kill a Royal Guard/Clone trooper thanks to his magical firepower. However, the truth remains that both of these combatants have superior physical capabilities than the Dark Wizard.

And yet, this is what occurs when we place these superbly-armored, powerfully built warriors, or “shlubs” as you brand them, against Yoda:

Incapacitation 1

2 Royal Guards, who were prepared for the Grand Master, were incapacitated instantly with a wave of a hand.

Incapacitation 2

Yoda engaged nine 501st Clone troopers firing at him from all sides- four of whom who were incapacitated instantly with just a raise of a hand.

Now, you are disputing that both of these foes are “shlubs” who are not as “skilled” as Voldemort; what you mean to say is that Yoda won’t be able to replicate his telekinetic submission against the Dark Wizard (even though he has inferior physical capabilities).

Repetition #2:

Skill’ plays no part in the fragility of the human body. Voldemort is tall and emaciated, almost skeletal. He is physically weaker than an average healthy human being, and significantly less hardy than a tip top shape Royal Guard or 501st Clone trooper. Unlike Yoda, who uses Force Valor to overcome his elderly infirmities and boost his powers and constitution to insane levels, Voldemort doesn’t have any spell to strengthen his body to survive such damaging physical blows. In fact, Voldemort has nothing in his arsenal that can grant him the precognition and metahuman speed, reflexes, and senses to allow him to possibly defend against an instantaneous telekinetic wave.

I already know how you will respond: why didn’t Yoda’s TK against Sidious cripple/kill him? Well, this entire counter is based on your unsound assumption that the ‘office scene’ was combat.

Your last response didn’t even provide a proper argument to what I said earlier on this matter. You equated the ‘office scene’ with Yoda vs. Dooku and then suddenly started to question Force Valor, something that I’ve mentioned since my opening argument and referenced throughout this debate that you didn’t bother to contest until now when you are desperately searching for something to validate your already faulty claims.

Therefore, this again:

Repetition #3:

Yoda v. Sidious

Pause the video at 0:35 and observe Yoda. You see him simply standing with both of his hands resting on his cane for support. Are you going to say that’s the stance of somebody ready for battle? At 1:30, you see Yoda struggling to stand up. It’s obvious that he hasn’t activated Force Valor to overpower his old age frailties. At the end of his fight with Sidious, Yoda raises himself up more easily than before, even though he just felt the impact of an explosion and plummeted hundreds of feet (bouncing off a repulsorpod on the way) before colliding onto the ground; this proves that Yoda is employing Force Valor, a power he always kicks in before combat.

Secondly, I repeat this paragraph again:

“Couple minutes later you see him dodging an avalanche of Senate pods. When he returns to engage Sidious on the repulsorpod, he lands close to the ledge, a precarious position. Here Sidious bombards him with Force Storm (which had the power to blast Windu a mile+ across Coruscant) at point-blank range. The attack knocks away Yoda's lightsaber, but the Grand Master has the reflexes & strength to erect a potent defense single-handed (before resorting to both hands) on an insecure position.”

Yoda was closer to Sidious than he was to him in his office, was at an unstable position, and had drained a lot of energy (though the Grand Master seems to have an inexhaustible amount of that when in battle) dodging when the Sith Lord unleashed his Force Storm barrage- much stronger than the teasing bolt he fired earlier. If Yoda is as slow to aggressive actions as you make him out to be, how come he wasn’t demolished then and there?

All the evidence (Yoda against Dooku, against the Clones, against Sidious) contradicts this lowest showing you keep reverting to. The straightforward explanation is that Yoda wasn’t in battle-mode and therefore unable to respond rapidly. From 2:03 onwards is when Yoda is ready to duke it out with the Dark Lord of the Sith.

This reasoning of course doesn’t even consider the fact that the whole purpose of the ‘office scene’ was to set up the duel that would transpire in the Senate Hall. Palpatine wasn’t intending on killing Yoda with his Force Lightning; he released a single bolt and proceeded to taunt the Grand Master about his victory and his delight that the Jedi Order was destroyed. Likewise, Yoda wasn’t intending on incapacitating Sidious with his Force Push; he wanted to ‘reply in kind’ and taunt the Sith Lord that his triumph was only ephemeral. More or less, the entire ‘office scene’ was designed to build up the confrontation that happens in the Senate Hall.

As for your argument on Force Valor, if the above paragraphs didn’t prove it, then this will:

Repetition #4:

If Yoda isn’t in battle mode, then he hasn’t activated his Force Valor to overcome his elderly infirmities. Therefore, he would have the reflexes and speed of an 880 year old of his species, which would roughly translate to the reflexes and speed of an 88 year old human being. Do you expect an 88 year old man to evade an extremely fast lightning bolt?

Palpatine had the power to conceal his Dark Side persona and block any Jedi Force Sense on his true nature. For all we know, he could have very much blocked Yoda’s precognition. And even if that isn’t the case, Sidious clearly didn’t intend on killing Yoda, otherwise he wouldn’t have just released a teasing bolt but rather unleashed a storm. There wasn’t a truly hostile intention from the get-go, and as a result no reason for Yoda to kick in Force Valor.

And honestly, your argument here leads nowhere. Yes, if Yoda wasn’t in battle-mode and didn’t use Force Valor, an 8-year old could beat him up.

THE BATTLEZONE AND THIS THREAD HAS YODA PREPARED TO FIGHT. THEREFORE, HIS OLD AGE FRAILTIES WON’T BE PLAYING A FACTOR WHATOSEVER!

Sure, I’ll concede that the films never have Yoda saying, “Active Force Valor, I will now!” just like nobody ever says, “I am going to Force Push these droids.” We see Yoda’s blatant transformation on screen, and it’s very obvious that he’s completely different in the Senate Hall than he was in the office. You can name it Force Fountain-of-Youth for all I care; however, it is called Force Valor.

Force Valor

Once again, to all the readers:

Quanchi sees the entire ‘office scene’ prior to Sidious and Yoda igniting their lightsabers as combat. I do not see it as combat. You must decide who is correct.

Recap:

1. Yoda wasn’t in battle-mode until he Force Jump-ed to block Sidious from leaving the office.

2. Since he wasn’t in battle-mode, his Force Valor wasn’t activated.

3. Yoda without Force Valor is the hobbling 880-year-old Jedi Master whose powers & abilities are hampered by his old age infirmities.

4. Sidious fired a teasing single bolt at the Grand Master to stun him while he could taunt Yoda about the destruction of the Jedi Order and his glee that the Sith have conquered the galaxy. Yoda, without Force Valor and limited by his frailties, could not possibly dodge this bolt.

5. Yoda lifts himself up, takes offense (“My little, green friend.”) and taunts back, “Not if anything to say about it, I have” and Force Push-es Palpatine into a chair.

6. There is a clear difference between his TK in battle and his TK against Sidious in this instance. If Yoda’s TK could KO robust, superbly-armored Royal Guards and Clone troopers, why couldn’t he KO a robe-clad Sidious?

BECAUSE YODA WASN’T TRYING TO KILL PALPATINE AT THAT MOMENT.

Yoda continues talking to him and says, “At an end your rule is and not short enough it was,” which gee, sounds awfully like a taunt to me.

7. In fact, another proof that there never was any combat was the fact that Palpatine tried to leave his office. Yoda obstructs the way and utters the ultimate taunt, “If so powerful you are, why leave?” It’s clear he is challenging the Emperor to duel him to the death (this is when he is in battle-mode), and that’s what follows. Not anything beforehand.

8. You can convince everyone all you want that Yoda is a dumb@ss for not charging into the office lightsaber blazing. That’s irrelevant to this fight.