++Religion/kids/atheism.... problem??

okay i have a girlfriend that i love, a lot. we get along, are nice, a great couple. shes a christian and im an atheist. religion has been brought up before, and even though i took it as lightly as i can, she was still getting uncomfortable with the topic.

the other day, we were talking about our future and having kids, and even though thats a while away, there is no harm and getting your opinion about this now. how would you raise your kids if you were in my situation? I strongly dislike the idea of my kids going to church.... at all. any religion that preaches against gay people, has a malevolent, selfish god, and practically says that every human emotion is a sin, is something i would not want my kids going to. I dont even like the idea of my kids assuming there is heaven and a god and not taking the time to consider if any of that were true or not.

And she isnt hardcore christian, but she claims herself as one, and definitely does believe in god.

I have a feeling she will say something like "it will teach them good morals" or something like that, but i could easily teach them good morals... i dont need church, or any religion to teach them good morals for that matter.

should i back up my ideals and not have them go to church? am i being selfish? words on this matter? lol

It's a tough decision. If you can convince your girlfriend that would be the best from my, also atheist, POV. But if she really wants them to go to church that's not necessarily a huge deal, you could go along and see for yourself whether the preacher seems like an alright person, and there's no denying that there are some moral ideals in Christianity which are worthwhile. As long as she's okay with you explaining your opinions.

I would make sure though that no hateful things are preached in the church they would be attending and if they are exposed to it that you explain to them the value of being open minded and non-judgmental.

I personally have been brought up as a Catholic, my mother, I suppose, is a believer, while my father too is an atheist. I don't hate my past with the church, and I don't recall ever being particularly negatively indoctrinated, but I don't know whether that is the exception or the rule. So either way, I think you should try to be involved with your children's life and teach them your values and ideals.

As long as they grow up to be decent people, I don't think it matters whether they consider themselves Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist or whatever.

You should talk to her and make sure neither is being judgmental. That will tell you if your problem is fixable or not. Posting on an internet forum, while great for soliciting advice, isn't going to solve anything. Because a phrase like "I have a feeling she'll say something like..." means that you haven't actually hashed it out yet. There's only so much you can plan for when you're speculating.

...

Personally, and this isn't advice, if I were in that position I'd push for not "raising" them anything. If she insisted on taking them to church, which is actively teaching them Christianity, I'd actively teach them atheism. Balance, rather than indoctrination.

When I was younger, my parents gave me a book on different world religions, as well as a bible and other holy texts I was interested in. This let me make up my own mind. I think this is the only fair way to do things.

Dont stop them from going to church, if you dont want them to believe in God there's a great chance (its the case for 90% of religious people anyway) that it will be nothing but a family tradition for them, which is a great thing for bonding. Most people that are biased against gays arent biased because of their religious beliefes. Them believing in God shouldnt cause any trouble as long as you teach them to be tolerant of other people. And while you may not believe in heaven/hell I dont see a reason to try and convince your kids that it doesnt exist, dont do that. Like Digi said, just familiarise them with both points of view and let them make up their own mind as they're older.

Originally posted by SamZED
Dont stop them from going to church, if you dont want them to believe in God there's a great chance (its the case for 90% of religious people anyway) that it will be nothing but a family tradition for them, which is a great thing for bonding. Most people that are biased against gays arent biased because of their religious beliefes. Them believing in God shouldnt cause any trouble as long as you teach them to be tolerant of other people. And while you may not believe in heaven/hell I dont see a reason to try and convince your kids that it doesnt exist, dont do that. Like Digi said, just familiarise them with both points of view and let them make up their own mind as they're older.

Secondly, honesty is a core value in any functional family. So I think if he's an atheist, pretending he doesn't believe that would be highly dishonest. If his kid asks him what he believes he should give a totally honest answer and explain it as best he can.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Preposterous. No i'm sorry but there is no reason why he should allow preachers to convince his kid what to think, while somehow it would be "bad" to try and convince them of his own views. You absolutely should not relinquish your authority to raise your kids to some minister. The fact that you think its fine for people to tell his kids to be religious, but think telling them not to be religious would be bad, betrays your bias and double standard on this issue.

Secondly, honesty is a core value in any functional family. So I think if he's an atheist, pretending he doesn't believe that would be highly dishonest. If his kid asks him what he believes he should give a totally honest answer and explain it as best he can.

Originally posted by SamZED
Who said anything about pretending to believe? And "relinquish"? Since when do they "raise" kids in churches? Preachers do exactly that - preach on religion. And learning about it isnt a bad thing and learning is exactly what they're going to do there as long as you (the father) take time to explain that its just a point of view some people have and that knowledge will help them get along if they're going to live/study among religious people. If you're a good parent and always try to educate your kids then one hour per week spent in a church wont play the crucial role in your kids upbringing. If it does, well.. it means you're a bad parent and never bother to teach your kids yourself. Simply learning about religion is one thing.. but teaching little kids that "religion/God/hell/heaven is bullsh!t" is another. You dont believe in God, tell them about it, but let them spend time with religious people as well, make sure you explain to them that its just that - a belief. They'll figure out what they want themselvs. That definitely beats forcing them to become atheists.

One hour of certainty > 100 hours of wishy washy talk.

EDIT: That was probably not the best way of explaining what I meant. What i'm saying, is, the christian position is that atheism is totally wrong, a fraud. And that's the view he'll get when he's preached to. So it baffles me that you think its OK for him to let his kid be subjected to that, which is obviously not a position of "point of view", but you think that it would be wrong for the dad to present his own view with certainty. This seems to me to be saying, the preacher should have more authority than the kids own parents.

Isn't one of the main things a lot of atheists dislike about religion is that it supposedly "indoctrinates" people at a young age? Wouldn't you be doing the same thing by forcing your atheistic views on them and telling them heaven/hell doesn't exist and it's all a big fairy tale?

Let them decide for themselves. If your girlfriend wants to take them to church, there should be no problem with that. What if they decide to become Christians? Is that really such a bad thing from an atheist point of view? As long as they don't join the Westboro Baptist Church they should be fine. It's a common misconception that "Christian's hate gay people." While I can't speak for every "Christian" out there, I know that is not the true Christian viewpoint. I, as a Christian, believe it's a sin. Just like lying, stealing, watching porn... ect ect. I don't hate all the people who do those things either. And, like another poster said, that's why it's important to choose the right church.

I think you have a very negative outlook on Christianity. If you could see marrying a Christian and raising a family with one, I don't see why you would be so apposed to having kids that might grow up to be the same. I'm no marriage counselor, but I would think that raising kids in a home where the father has the mind set of "I sure hope my kids are nothing like my wife" is not a very healthy family environment.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Isn't one of the main things a lot of atheists dislike about religion is that it supposedly "indoctrinates" people at a young age? Wouldn't you be doing the same thing by forcing your atheistic views on them and telling them heaven/hell doesn't exist and it's all a big fairy tale?

Originally posted by TacDavey
Let them decide for themselves. If your girlfriend wants to take them to church, there should be no problem with that. What if they decide to become Christians? Is that really such a bad thing from an atheist point of view? As long as they don't join the Westboro Baptist Church they should be fine. It's a common misconception that "Christian's hate gay people." While I can't speak for every "Christian" out there, I know that is not the true Christian viewpoint. I, as a Christian, believe it's a sin. Just like lying, stealing, watching porn... ect ect. I don't hate all the people who do those things either. And, like another poster said, that's why it's important to choose the right church.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I think you have a very negative outlook on Christianity. If you could see marrying a Christian and raising a family with one, I don't see why you would be so apposed to having kids that might grow up to be the same. I'm no marriage counselor, but I would think that raising kids in a home where the father has the mind set of "I sure hope my kids are nothing like my wife" is not a very healthy family environment.

Originally posted by King Kandy
What then, do you think he should lie to the kid and tell them he doesn't believe those things? His position should be something like "You can believe whatever you want, but my own belief is that its all nonsense, and if you want to know why i'll explain it". So then he learns both his mother and father's side, and the choice is ultimately his.

I don't necessarily think he should lie about it. But I find it a little hypocritical to criticize Christianity for something you are going to do yourself.

I think it should be given a fair chance. Again, what's the harm?

Originally posted by King Kandy
He said one of his biggest problems was that Christianity "practically says that every human emotion is a sin". Seems like you are basically reaffirming exactly what his problem was. So seems like you're proving yourself wrong, here.

In what way? I completely disagree with the stance that "every human emotion is a sin". I don't see Christianity teaching that at all.

I'm saying that if your kids are Christian, that doesn't mean they are going to hate gay people. Or anyone for that matter. In fact, according to Christianity, you aren't suppose to hate ANYONE.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I don't necessarily think he should lie about it. But I find it a little hypocritical to criticize Christianity for something you are going to do yourself.

I think it should be given a fair chance. Again, what's the harm?

You DON'T believe he should be able to tell his kids atheism is right.
You DO believe the preacher should be able to tell his kids christianity is right.

Please, explain how this is not a double standard.

Originally posted by TacDavey
In what way? I completely disagree with the stance that "every human emotion is a sin". I don't see Christianity teaching that at all.

I'm saying that if your kids are Christian, that doesn't mean they are going to hate gay people. Or anyone for that matter. In fact, according to Christianity, you aren't suppose to hate ANYONE.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Isn't one of the main things a lot of atheists dislike about religion is that it supposedly "indoctrinates" people at a young age? Wouldn't you be doing the same thing by forcing your atheistic views on them and telling them heaven/hell doesn't exist and it's all a big fairy tale?

Sure if he did that, but he can tell the child his beliefs, the girlfriend hers, and they can introduce it to other Philosophies and Religions just as well.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Let them decide for themselves. If your girlfriend wants to take them to church, there should be no problem with that. What if they decide to become Christians? Is that really such a bad thing from an atheist point of view? As long as they don't join the Westboro Baptist Church they should be fine. It's a common misconception that "Christian's hate gay people." While I can't speak for every "Christian" out there, I know that is not the true Christian viewpoint. I, as a Christian, believe it's a sin. Just like lying, stealing, watching porn... ect ect. I don't hate all the people who do those things either. And, like another poster said, that's why it's important to choose the right church.

See, that's the thing already though, it being a sin...what if the kid turns out gay? And he thinks he's a sinner? That's a terrible way to have to grow up. Obviously going to church, being exposed to a whole community of people who belief one thing, making friends with those kids, is going to be an extremely strong influence, giving this worldview an unfair advantage, especially if you don't believe in it. Even if the people don't actively try to indoctrinate, and some might, it will definitely passively happen, in such a scenario.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I think you have a very negative outlook on Christianity. If you could see marrying a Christian and raising a family with one, I don't see why you would be so apposed to having kids that might grow up to be the same. I'm no marriage counselor, but I would think that raising kids in a home where the father has the mind set of "I sure hope my kids are nothing like my wife" is not a very healthy family environment.

Originally posted by King Kandy
But you're giving it a chance that you aren't getting atheism.

You DON'T believe he should be able to tell his kids atheism is right.
You DO believe the preacher should be able to tell his kids christianity is right.

Please, explain how this is not a double standard.

Like I said, I don't think he should lie about it. I think, in a situation like this, the kids should be able to be exposed to both alternatives, and decide for themselves what they think is true.

I don't think they should be denied church and forced to be atheists. That's the exact same thing atheists criticize Christians for doing.

Originally posted by King Kandy
His point was that christianity teaches that many (in his view) harmless human behaviors such as homosexuality, masturbation, pornography etc are sins. And you just reaffirmed it. Obviously, christianity doesn't teach that every single emotion is a sin; just a ton of them.

I wouldn't label them emotions. Masterbation, porn, etc etc, aren't emotions. They are actions. Yes, there are more actions that are considered wrong from a Christian perspective than there are from an atheistic one. But THAT shouldn't be the reasoning behind denying them the ability to learn about Christianity.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Sure if he did that, but he can tell the child his beliefs, the girlfriend hers, and they can introduce it to other Philosophies and Religions just as well.

Yes, I think in a family situation where the parents have different views, they should allow the child to decide what view they think is the truth for themselves. It's the only fair way.

Originally posted by Bardock42
See, that's the thing already though, it being a sin...what if the kid turns out gay? And he thinks he's a sinner? That's a terrible way to have to grow up. Obviously going to church, being exposed to a whole community of people who belief one thing, making friends with those kids, is going to be an extremely strong influence, giving this worldview an unfair advantage, especially if you don't believe in it. Even if the people don't actively try to indoctrinate, and some might, it will definitely passively happen, in such a scenario.

It isn't a terrible thing to grow up knowing your a sinner. Everyone is a sinner. Any church will tell you that. One of the first things they make clear is that no one is perfect.

Like I said, I don't think you should force the kid to be a Christian, but I don't think you should deny him the possibility either.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Growing up to be one is one thing, pushing them in that direction is a totally different one. (also what about the wife, wanting them to grow up Christian, how is that not the same exact thing as your "I sure hope my kids are nothing like my wife" scenario?)

Well, they are a little different. And again, I don't think the child should be forced either way. I just don't see the harm in allowing your wife to take her kids to church with her.

And I still can't see, from an atheistic viewpoint, why having your kids grow up christian would be such a bad thing.

I'm sorry, who said it would generally be a bad thing? As far as I can tell people are against the indoctrination that bringing children to church week after week entails.

And what if the children don't want to go, should they be forced? How long should they have to go for?

Originally posted by Bardock42
I'm sorry, who said it would generally be a bad thing? As far as I can tell people are against the indoctrination that bringing children to church week after week entails.

And what if the children don't want to go, should they be forced? How long should they have to go for?

That's something you would have to work out in the family. Talk to your wife about it. But she should have as much say in raising the kids as the husband does.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That's something you would have to work out in the family. Talk to your wife about it. But she should have as much say in raising the kids as the husband does.

Yeah, and they probably should figure it out before. If it's an issue neither of them can budge on maybe they shouldn't have children.

My question was to what you think though, what would be right.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Like I said, I don't think he should lie about it. I think, in a situation like this, the kids should be able to be exposed to both alternatives, and decide for themselves what they think is true.

I don't think they should be denied church and forced to be atheists. That's the exact same thing atheists criticize Christians for doing.

If you were really interested in them deciding for themselves, then sending them to church is backwards; the church will do anything in its power to make them decide in favor of it, while you have conveniently handicapped the atheist by telling him he can't insist on the rightness of his own views.

That's not deciding for themselves, that's a situation specifically set up to give an advantage to the christians.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I wouldn't label them emotions. Masterbation, porn, etc etc, aren't emotions. They are actions. Yes, there are more actions that are considered wrong from a Christian perspective than there are from an atheistic one. But THAT shouldn't be the reasoning behind denying them the ability to learn about Christianity.

Do you think it is a parent's job to insure their kids grow up with a strong moral foundation?

Originally posted by Digi
You should talk to her and make sure neither is being judgmental. That will tell you if your problem is fixable or not. Posting on an internet forum, while great for soliciting advice, isn't going to solve anything. Because a phrase like "I have a feeling she'll say something like..." means that you haven't actually hashed it out yet. There's only so much you can plan for when you're speculating.

...

Personally, and this isn't advice, if I were in that position I'd push for not "raising" them anything. If she insisted on taking them to church, which is actively teaching them Christianity, I'd actively teach them atheism. Balance, rather than indoctrination.

Originally posted by SamZED
Dont stop them from going to church, if you dont want them to believe in God there's a great chance (its the case for 90% of religious people anyway) that it will be nothing but a family tradition for them, which is a great thing for bonding. Most people that are biased against gays arent biased because of their religious beliefes. Them believing in God shouldnt cause any trouble as long as you teach them to be tolerant of other people. And while you may not believe in heaven/hell I dont see a reason to try and convince your kids that it doesnt exist, dont do that. Like Digi said, just familiarise them with both points of view and let them make up their own mind as they're older.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Isn't one of the main things a lot of atheists dislike about religion is that it supposedly "indoctrinates" people at a young age? Wouldn't you be doing the same thing by forcing your atheistic views on them and telling them heaven/hell doesn't exist and it's all a big fairy tale?

I would never force anything on them, i would just inform them that my stance is that everything they say is so very unlikely. I dont believe in any of it, and i dont want my kids hearing "being gay is wrong" from a preacher. or "masturbation is wrong" from a preacher.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Let them decide for themselves. If your girlfriend wants to take them to church, there should be no problem with that. What if they decide to become Christians? Is that really such a bad thing from an atheist point of view? As long as they don't join the Westboro Baptist Church they should be fine. It's a common misconception that "Christian's hate gay people." While I can't speak for every "Christian" out there, I know that is not the true Christian viewpoint. I, as a Christian, believe it's a sin. Just like lying, stealing, watching porn... ect ect. I don't hate all the people who do those things either. And, like another poster said, that's why it's important to choose the right church.

Being a christian means adopting their ideals and beliefs, and yes i do believe those ideals are beliefs are bad, not all, but a lot are. ANY christian church will say its bad to be homosexual, and i dont want my kids thinking that. At all. Its not right to think homosexuality is bad, and what if my kid ends up gay? Should they think its bad to feel the way they feel? Some of the stuff you mentioned being a "sin" is not a sin in to me, nor i think it should be a sin for anyone, even religous people. How is it bad, in anyway, to masturbate? Lying and stealing are obvious things that are bad, they dont need to be taught in a church to know that. Dont take something thats yours, because it isnt yours and think of how that person will feel if you did that. Simple, right?

Originally posted by TacDavey
I think you have a very negative outlook on Christianity. If you could see marrying a Christian and raising a family with one, I don't see why you would be so apposed to having kids that might grow up to be the same. I'm no marriage counselor, but I would think that raising kids in a home where the father has the mind set of "I sure hope my kids are nothing like my wife" is not a very healthy family environment.

I do have a negative outlook on Christianity as a religion, because it teaches my kids things i dont want them to be taught, and the good things that religion and Christianity teaches them can be taught to them by me, and pure logic, religion is not needed for that.

You say marrying a "christian" but i dont see it as that. It hardly interferes with our relationship at all, I dont think of religion unless it is brought up. And its not that i dont want them to grow up like my wife, thats where your wrong and putting things in my mouth. My girlfriend is okay with gay people, but my kids my end up different, because not every one is the same. If my kids ever did grow up to be religous, i would want them to be a christian like her. My fears is that if i let them go to church, they believe that being gay is wrong, etc. etc. since a preacher would not hesitate to say things like that.

And so far ive read everyones posts, and king kandy seems to be getting really really close to how i feel about all this.