++Religion/kids/atheism.... problem??

if the religion that your children adopt is important to you and your partner, and you have a fundamental disagreement about what that should be, I'd strongly suggest really thinking about it, especially scenarios where giving your children the choice actually end up with them in the very specific place you didn't want them to be in the first place.

as intollerant as that might sound, if you have actual concerns about your kids being indoctrinated into Christianity, and you let them go to church, any time they get your perspective, you boil it down in many ways to mommy versus daddy. especially for younger kids who might not have the cognitive capacity to understand nuanced philosophical positions.

like, I think the ideal position is what King Kandy describes, but in that situation it looked like both parents didn't actualy have any disagreement about their child's future religion. if you feel a legitimate concern about your child being Christian, I'd almost say you probably shouldn't have a child with someone who wants them to end up that way.

also, I know I'm just parroting a bunch of stuff other people have said 😛

Originally posted by Varunga
In all honestly, you have to decide. There is no set age for this type of situation; it all depends on your children and their personalities. Some mature faster than others and can make that sort of decision at a younger age, while others have to wait until they're older.

It's a difficult thing to deal with, and I agree that not going to church would be better for them. But look at it this way: you love your girlfriend and she is Christian, so it doesn't mean you kids will be bad people.

The only real issue I see is if one of them does decide against the religion later in life, it will cause doubt and confusion because it's something that's been taught to them so strongly. It happens to a lot of atheists who stop believing, including myself.

Originally posted by inimalist
if the religion that your children adopt is important to you and your partner, and you have a fundamental disagreement about what that should be, I'd strongly suggest really thinking about it, especially scenarios where giving your children the choice actually end up with them in the very specific place you didn't want them to be in the first place.

as intollerant as that might sound, if you have actual concerns about your kids being indoctrinated into Christianity, and you let them go to church, any time they get your perspective, you boil it down in many ways to mommy versus daddy. especially for younger kids who might not have the cognitive capacity to understand nuanced philosophical positions.

like, I think the ideal position is what King Kandy describes, but in that situation it looked like both parents didn't actualy have any disagreement about their child's future religion. if you feel a legitimate concern about your child being Christian, I'd almost say you probably shouldn't have a child with someone who wants them to end up that way.

also, I know I'm just parroting a bunch of stuff other people have said 😛

Originally posted by inimalist
like, I think the ideal position is what King Kandy describes, but in that situation it looked like both parents didn't actualy have any disagreement about their child's future religion. if you feel a legitimate concern about your child being Christian, I'd almost say you probably shouldn't have a child with someone who wants them to end up that way.

Originally posted by cool_ghost
well up until atleast they know what they are doing, i am going to try and push for them to not go to church. Unless my girlfriend absolutely sets in stone she wants them to go to church (which is unlikely, as she isnt THAT religious) then they will not go to church. If they are older, and I see they can make a decision like that for themselves, and want to go to church be it out of curiosity or any reason, I would not mind them going as I am definitely not controlling.

I wish you the best of luck in this endeavor, and I hope everything turns out fine for you. 😛

Yes i will do that, thank you and everyone else for your input, its highly appreciated

Originally posted by King Kandy
if I understand, he would not "forbid" the kid to go to church... rather he doesn't want the mother to MAKE the kid go. You say free choice, but real free choice would mean its the CHILD's decision whether to go to church... and the mother should have no ability to make the kid do it.

Right, because freedom of choice is all about not letting your kids know what they're choosig between... He tells his kids about atheism.. lets them learn about religion.. then they can choose themselvs rather than only give him father's point of view which apparently comes down to "Dont believe in God or you'll grow to become intolerant of others".

Originally posted by King Kandy

It wouldn't be a healthy family activity. The father wouldn't take part and it would put a dividing line between parents.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Wrong

Originally posted by cool_ghost
I strongly dislike the idea of my kids going to church.... at all... ...I dont even like the idea of my kids assuming there is heaven and a god and not taking the time to consider if any of that were true or not.

You don't feel like churches are often very much designed to indoctrinate children from a very young age?

Wouldn't the equal thing be the dad tells about what he believes....the mother about what she believes.

I think the going weekly to a community place where only one view is preached to them and they are drawn in with other activities is what makes it unequal...not what you said.

So I guess the question would be, if you don't want the kids going to church, do you have any problem with your wife talking to them about it? That might be a compromise you could make. But it still brings up the problem of a family "fighting" between mother and father unless it's done correctly.

Originally posted by Varunga
I said that it is not wrong and that the Church's assertion is unfounded. Both claims that I made are true.

There is nothing wrong with homosexuals, nor the act of homosexual intercourse. You can find homosexuality in nature. In addition, the Church claims homosexuality to be immoral based upon the Bible, which is a bias book written by men that tells us to worship an immoral God. This is not the best source to follow on issues of morality. Which goes back to my point about the Church having no foundation for its assertion.

It's far more than me merely claiming "it's not wrong because it's not wrong."

Obviously I disagree. I don't see the Bible nor God as immoral. At any rate, this debate will have to be saved for another time. This thread is not about debating the morality of Christianity.

Originally posted by Mindship
That was the main reason I didn't like going to synagogue as a kid, that and that generally I found services boring (and soooo long on holidays), and that I'd rather have been home watching cartoons (Saturday morning toons!) or playing.

Sometimes I still feel that way. 😇

Originally posted by TacDavey
So, the idea to "let the kids decide for themselves" sounds good and all, but how is this going to be accomplished? It's going to be many years before they are old enough to make that decision. It's not like you can keep the concept of god completely hidden from them until they reach a certain age.

That's a tough one. I would say it would depend on the age of the kids. If they don't want to go to church because they don't like getting dressed up, then I would say still take them. If they are old enough to say, "I don't want to go to church because I'm not interested in accepting this religion", then you stop taking them.

Christianity doesn't teach you are suppose to hate gay people. You are suppose to "love thy neighbor as thy self." You aren't suppose to hate ANYONE.

Sure, according to Christianity the act is wrong, but that doesn't mean you hate the person. That just means you believe they are doing something wrong.

I argee and to say that God is hateful and sexist is a bunch of crap it is not true. How you got those ideas is beyond me. (I am talking about another post btw not to you Tacdave

the problem with all of this "choose between the preference of your mother or father" stuff is that 1) you and your wife are going to have to have an inhuman ability not to argue with eachother in a way that isn't devastating to your own relationship (it is easier for religion not to be a problem when you can live without it being brought up, however, now it will be something addressed on a weekly basis), 2) it almost certainly will strain the relationship between the child and the parent whose opinion is not chosen, and 3) even in the best case scenario for the last 2, we are talking as though these kids are at least 10-11, where they might be able to start distinguishing between things like "daddy thinks mommy's position on the supernatural is wrong" versus "daddy thinks mommy is wrong". it's hard to describe like that, lol, but I'm less convinced this "choice" idea is good for a very young child in this circumstance, because it really does make them choose one parent or the other. you would be giving them mixed messages, and it is a situation where one of you will win and one of you won't. it will do nothing but put stress on every relationship in the family, or, I feel that is the most likely outcome at least.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Obviously I disagree. I don't see the Bible nor God as immoral. At any rate, this debate will have to be saved for another time. This thread is not about debating the morality of Christianity.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
I argee and to say that God is hateful and sexist is a bunch of crap it is not true. How you got those ideas is beyond me. (I am talking about another post btw not to you Tacdave

And in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his family were considered righteous people by God. Lot offered his virgin daughters to a crowd to be gang raped, Lot's wife disobeyed God, and his daughters got him drunk and had incestuousness intercourse with him.

If you honestly think there isn't something immoral about God, you're in deep denial.

Originally posted by SamZED
Right, because freedom of choice is all about not letting your kids know what they're choosig between... He tells his kids about atheism.. lets them learn about religion.. then they can choose themselvs rather than only give him father's point of view which apparently comes down to "Dont believe in God or you'll grow to become intolerant of others".

Originally posted by SamZED
And what's stopping father from going to church along with them? Just because he's an atheist he cant tolerate being among christians? Dont think so. Dunno about your home but in most of the world they dont kick you out, not even from mosques, let alone churches. Or maybe you think that just because he's an atheist he cant spend time among religious people? If that's the case then its some lessong for kids on "tolerance".

Originally posted by SamZED
And that's a little silly because if anything like this ever happens or they grow up and become homophobic the father will have noone by himself to blame because that would make him a bad prent who couldnt raise his kids well. But it is convenient to blame everything on church and preachers...

Okay, let me make this more simple for you. Church preaches that being gay is wrong. I DO NOT WANT THEM THINKING THIS. If they learn from a priest that things like this are wrong, and then I go and tell them that the priest is wrong and being gay, masturbation is okay, etc. etc. it will confuse them, and if i am teaching them things against what the church is teaching them, what is the purpose of church anyways?

The purpose of being in a religion are to follow its ideals and beliefs, if i teach my kid that half those ideals/beliefs are wrong, and the other half are good(albeit pointless becuase they could easily be learned elsewhere) then what is the purpose of it? I can not think of one. Really.

Originally posted by SamZED
Right, because freedom of choice is all about not letting your kids know what they're choosig between... He tells his kids about atheism.. lets them learn about religion.. then they can choose themselvs rather than only give him father's point of view which apparently comes down to "Dont believe in God or you'll grow to become intolerant of others".

And i am not teaching my kids that "Dont believe in God or you'll grow to become intolerant of others". I am teaching them that if they completely follow christianity, they will grow up thinking that certain actions and behaviors are wrong and are "sins". You can't pick and choose what you want to believe in a religion, hence there is no point in being in that religion. You believe in all of it, or you take the good of that religion and follow those good morals without being in it.

its like saying "i masturbate, think its okay to be gay, have had premarital sex, lust for other people, want to be wealthy" yet im still a christian? Most people feel/do a lot of the things i said above, and most likely my children will to. I dont get how my children can be in a religion while doing so many things against that religions ideals.

Its one thing to commit a sin, feel bad for it, then repent. Thats different. But if my child unintentionally looks at other people because of a sexual attraction, wants tons of money, masturbates, etc. and does not feel bad for it, does not repent, there is not point in calling themselves a christian, nor being in that religion.

Originally posted by inimalist
the problem with all of this "choose between the preference of your mother or father" stuff is that 1) you and your wife are going to have to have an inhuman ability not to argue with eachother in a way that isn't devastating to your own relationship (it is easier for religion not to be a problem when you can live without it being brought up, however, now it will be something addressed on a weekly basis), 2) it almost certainly will strain the relationship between the child and the parent whose opinion is not chosen, and 3) even in the best case scenario for the last 2, we are talking as though these kids are at least 10-11, where they might be able to start distinguishing between things like "daddy thinks mommy's position on the supernatural is wrong" versus "daddy thinks mommy is wrong". it's hard to describe like that, lol, but I'm less convinced this "choice" idea is good for a very young child in this circumstance, because it really does make them choose one parent or the other. you would be giving them mixed messages, and it is a situation where one of you will win and one of you won't. it will do nothing but put stress on every relationship in the family, or, I feel that is the most likely outcome at least.

Thank you for the input, I am not arguing but here are my some what thoughts on the matter

1)arguing about a religion is a big deal, but I know my girlfriend well and I know myself well. It will cause arguements, but i would never let it devastate our relationship. If it came down to it I would let my kids go to church and openly teach them atheism so there is balance.

2) I will most likely be bothered if my kid(s) end up being christian, but not to a point of it straining our relationship. I would definitely not let religion get in the way of me being a parent.

3) This is why i am going to push for my kids to not go to church (for many reasons, reason that I believe would help them) until they are atleast old enough to make that decision on there own. Now it just comes down to problems with me and my girlfriend, and even though I would push for my children to not go to church, I would not let it get as far as to mess up our relationship. If it came down to it, like i said, I would just let my children go to church and do what digi suggested, openly teach them christianity and atheism as to create balance.

Originally posted by Varunga
It doesn't matter whether or not you disagree. I could easily start naming immoralities within the Bible, and the corrupt actions and statements God has done and made. But I will agree that that is a discussion for another thread.

Merely asserting it as "a bunch of crap" and "not true" does not afford you any veracity. God has killed in the Bible multiple times.
[list]
[*]God is directly said to hate; Psalm 11:5
[*]God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah for homosexuality; Genesis[/list]

And in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his family were considered righteous people by God. Lot offered his virgin daughters to a crowd to be gang raped, Lot's wife disobeyed God, and his daughters got him drunk and had incestuousness intercourse with him.

If you honestly think there isn't something immoral about God, you're in deep denial.

tsk tsk the people who are the least religious almost always know more about religion that the people who are. Varunga you make excellent sense

You obviously have a very negative outlook on Christianity and Christians. What would happen if your children DID grow up to be Christians and thought things like homosexuality was wrong? Can you honestly say that wouldn't hurt your relationship with them at all?

Originally posted by TacDavey
You obviously have a very negative outlook on Christianity and Christians. What would happen if your children DID grow up to be Christians and thought things like homosexuality was wrong? Can you honestly say that wouldn't hurt your relationship with them at all?

If your children grew up the gay atheists can you honestly say that wouldn't hurt your relationship with them at all?

Originally posted by TacDavey
You obviously have a very negative outlook on Christianity and Christians. What would happen if your children DID grow up to be Christians and thought things like homosexuality was wrong? Can you honestly say that wouldn't hurt your relationship with them at all?

Are you saying he's unable to hate the sin (being a Christian), but love the sinner?

Originally posted by cool_ghost
tsk tsk the people who are the least religious almost always know more about religion that the people who are. Varunga you make excellent sense

Originally posted by TacDavey
You obviously have a very negative outlook on Christianity and Christians. What would happen if your children DID grow up to be Christians and thought things like homosexuality was wrong? Can you honestly say that wouldn't hurt your relationship with them at all?