Originally posted by OneDumbG0
High Evolutionary's armor failed to do that. Assuming attempts to devolve >/= rewriting DNA.Hulk has other outright feats of transmutation resistance than the ones already mentioned.
He has resistance feats, and he also has instances of being transformed -- Alpha turned him into concrete, for instance.
Originally posted by Simbon
He did it to Lunatik, who has a mad healing factor and who evolves, and apparently affected him for some time. Likewise, he affected Genis, who at the time wasn't very skilled, but who many rate in raw power above Surfer. He has also used it against the Obliterator, who he even acknowledged was more powerful than he was. Most of the time Surfer doesn't use matter manipulation offensively because it is against his ethics. In this case, I wouldn't argue anything ridiculous like turning Hulk into a tortoise; but it would not be out of character for him, in a situation like this, to affect Hulk with matter manipulation simply to weaken him. Likewise, people keep acting as if Hulk's gamma energy can't be manipulated, when we have already seen Armageddon doing precisely that. As for the healing factor affecting being shrunk -- being shrunk is not damage, there is nothing to heal from.
the 'trap in the board' attack was interesting. maybe becasue genis was so new he couldn't counter it? not sure. with obliterator, all he transmuted was his weapons, no?
again, your suggestions seem logically possible, like delph's do, but it's hard for me (and many others) to credit these types of attacks fully for a couple reasons. one, because he really hasn't demonstrated them against someone at hulk's level--lunatik aside. and to counter that, there IS some evidence that hulk might be able to resist that style attack. the other reason has to do with the ad infinitum nature of acceptance. if we allow that he can simply transmute hulk, then where do we draw the line? can he transmute thor? morg? glads? superman? if you say no, why not? can he transmute trans level guys? why not? do THEY have resistance feats? if they don't, can we assume he CAN do so?
allowing that he can do as you suggest without outright, specific proof, just opens a large can of worms that not too many are comfortable opening.
You know what, f*ck it, open the can and let the worms out.
Yes, Surfer likely could transmute Thor, Superman, etc. They're made out of matter, and could likely, and have likely on panel, been manipulated before, and likely could again. The main factor is what camp you reside in, not whether it's actually possible. If your pro-Supes, you'll favor the evidence against it. If your anti-Supes, you'll favor the proof he can be manipulated.
I say f*ck your character allegiance.
There, it's been said.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
hulk is the only one that will both resist the transmutation, and heal from the effects (on-panel)
But how can he resist or heal from shrinking though? And how long did it take him to heal from the effects? The Surfer won't just stand there like an idiot waiting for him to heal from the transmutation.
Originally posted by leonidas
the 'trap in the board' attack was interesting. maybe becasue genis was so new he couldn't counter it? not sure. with obliterator, all he transmuted was his weapons, no?again, your suggestions seem logically possible, like delph's do, but it's hard for me (and many others) to credit these types of attacks fully for a couple reasons. one, because he really hasn't demonstrated them against someone at hulk's level--lunatik aside. and to counter that, there IS some evidence that hulk might be able to resist that style attack. the other reason has to do with the ad infinitum nature of acceptance. if we allow that he can simply transmute hulk, then where do we draw the line? can he transmute thor? morg? glads? superman? if you say no, why not? can he transmute trans level guys? why not? do THEY have resistance feats? if they don't, can we assume he CAN do so?
allowing that he can do as you suggest without outright, specific proof, just opens a large can of worms that not too many are comfortable opening.
It is a problem -- much like the speed-force, or telepathy. At what point does one assume that characters have resistance to telepathic attacks? I started a thread a while ago that asked that question. If we see a character knock out Thor or Hyperion with a single punch, but show no abilities aside from strength and durability, is it safe to assume that the weakest telepath could mindrape them? My personal feeling is no, but I am also one of the zoom naysayers. With matter manipulation, many of the top-tiers have feats going either way, and as with telepathy, sometimes there are crazy things like people resisting manipulation through will-power (both Doom and Kang have done this). To my mind, the ideal solution is not to overpower one character by giving their abilities a free pass (for instance, I actually do not support board-imprisonment or shrinkage as on-forum strategies, though I may sometimes pretend otherwise to annoy certain people), nor to deny a character an entire aspect of their powerset on inconclusive evidence (for instance, saying that a certain character automatically resists a certain kind of attack based when they have an inconsistent record of resisting those kinds of attacks), but to take account of the ability as a strong influencing factor. For instance, Manchester Black messed up superman pretty bad by telekinetically manipulating capillaries in his brain, but the attack ultimately failed -- in considering a match between superman and a being with similar TK abilities, rather than saying that Mr. TK gets an automatic win through aneurysm, or that Superman just shrugs off the attack, we can go for a middle ground in which TK is an influencing, but not necessarily deciding factor. In the case of Surfer vs. Hulk, I see matter and gamma-manipulation as powerful tools at his disposal, that at this point might not give him an automatic win, but which will definitely put the fight in his favor. I don't think that this is an especially crazy stance.
Originally posted by MF DELPH
You know what, f*ck it, open the can and let the worms out.Yes, Surfer likely could transmute Thor, Superman, etc. They're made out of matter, and could likely, and have likely on panel, been manipulated before, and likely could again. The main factor is what camp you reside in, not whether it's actually possible. If your pro-Supes, you'll favor the evidence against it. If your anti-Supes, you'll favor the proof he can be manipulated.
I say f*ck your character allegiance.
There, it's been said.
The Quanchi part on you is showing.