Ventress and Oppress versus Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for the debate between me and S66, I have it confirmed that in the first episode of season 5

Spoiler:
Obi-Wan Uses 2 Lightsabers (his and Adi's) to fight off Maul and Savage together.

This actually helps my argument. Sidious would instantly take Obi Wan out, either through the force or through his force inhance speed, regardless of whether or not Obi Wan has two sabers. Remember, Kit Fisto himself is almost Obi Wan's level (I believe Obi Wan mentions that Fisto is actually a superior swordsman), and he had the help of three other saber masters.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So I think it's pretty damn obvious that the only reason Sidious is also using 2 Sabers is to help him fight/kill them both off simultaneously. It's highly highly unlikely he'd be using 2 if they were no threat at all and he was just playing around.

That's not proof that he actually needed two. Nothing suggests that, especially how comfortably Sidious stomps them (according to the passage anyway), and how he hestitates and pauses his attacks a couple of times in that duel. That is something he did not with Mace and company; he did not stop his attack after he killed any of them, and he did not stand there and wait for them to attack.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And for those who say that if

Spoiler:
Obi-Wan can fight them both off and cut Savage's arm then Sidious can do it in a second... Bear in mind that:

In the very last episode Savage comfortably beat Obi-Wan down one on one.

In the very same episode Obi-Wan is unable to beat Maul in a one on one.

Ventress has also in the past used her 2 Sabers to fight off Anakin and Obi-Wan (and seemingly had Obi-Wan defeated in that fight if not for Anakin).

An enraged Savage in the past has also fought off both Anakin and Obi-Wan and flattened them both with the Force (as well as 3 Destroyer droids and several other battle droids.)

Plus Maul and Savage are both going to increase in skill/power throughout the season before they fight Sidious.

None of those examples matter. Savage only wins his fights through superior power or physical strength. He is not shown to be a very skilled opponent, and so it seems that Obi Wan was finally able to take advantage of that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No you obviously don't understand how a temporary rage enhanced force boost works at all. It's not something you can do on demand.

You seem to be under the impression that rage can somehow help someone to tap into their full potential or something. Well that is false. It can only give a boost to their realized potential, and possibly help them to achieve things that they could not achieve before. However, with training and more command, a force user should be able to harness their rage more efficiently, and thus should be able to do far greater things with far greater ease. Take a look at the Sidious example I gave you. Also, why do you think Dooku was trying to get Savage to master his anger and hatred? Each fit of rage helps a force user to unlock more and more of their power.

So, no, Maul's first time fully embracing his rage would not be enough for him to be Sidious's near equal in sabers. He lacks the power and command.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ventress was well trained in the dark side. So does that mean she can Force choke Anakin and Obi-Wan together any time she wants??
Something even Count Dooku has never managed to do! Of course she can't.

Their force guards were likely lowered since they were expecting her to surrender, and it seemingly took a lot of effort and concentration for Ventress to do that. Three years earlier, Ventress could not have pulled a feat like that regardless of being in a fit of rage, because she was not as well trained and was not as powerful.

Dooku force chokes and levitates Obi Wan while force pushing then kicking Anakin into a wall (or floor?). He did this with far greater effort than Ventress choking them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
(Although it's a no-brainer that he won't apply that power in a fight as effectively without his biological legs and chosen weapon)

Maul disagrees with you. His thoughts were more along the lines of "damn no matter how powerful I have become, I'm still in awe of how effortlessly Sidious is taking us on" Not "Oh, if only I had my biological legs and weapon of choice, then maybe I would be able to apply my new powers more effectively"

But yeah. I know I keep saying I am going to end this debate, but this time I think I'm serious. You keep making claims without backing them up. When you can give me a reason why Maul would not be in a fit of rage similar to the one on Hypori, then I will hear you out. Otherwise, I'm not interested in your opinion. Maul has even more of a reason to be extremely angry, seeing how all of his efforts were thrown right in his face and was denied back as an apprentice.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This actually helps my argument. Sidious would instantly take Obi Wan out, either through the force or through his force inhance speed, regardless of whether or not Obi Wan has two sabers. Remember, Kit Fisto himself is almost Obi Wan's level (I believe Obi Wan mentions that Fisto is actually a superior swordsman), and he had the help of three other saber masters.

That's not proof that he actually needed two. Nothing suggests that, especially how comfortably Sidious stomps them (according to the passage anyway), and how he hestitates and pauses his attacks a couple of times in that duel. That is something he did not with Mace and company; he did not stop his attack after he killed any of them, and he did not stand there and wait for them to attack.

None of those examples matter. Savage only wins his fights through superior power or physical strength. He is not shown to be a very skilled opponent, and so it seems that Obi Wan was finally able to take advantage of that.

You seem to be under the impression that rage can somehow help someone to tap into their full potential or something. Well that is false. It can only give a boost to their realized potential, and possibly help them to achieve things that they could not achieve before. However, with training and more command, a force user should be able to harness their rage more efficiently, and thus should be able to do far greater things with far greater ease. Take a look at the Sidious example I gave you. Also, why do you think Dooku was trying to get Savage to master his anger and hatred? Each fit of rage helps a force user to unlock more and more of their power.

So, no, Maul's first time fully embracing his rage would not be enough for him to be Sidious's near equal in sabers. He lacks the power and command.

Their force guards were likely lowered since they were expecting her to surrender, and it seemingly took a lot of effort and concentration for Ventress to do that. Three years earlier, Ventress could not have pulled a feat like that regardless of being in a fit of rage, because she was not as well trained and was not as powerful.

Dooku force chokes and levitates Obi Wan while force pushing then kicking Anakin into a wall (or floor?). He did this with far greater effort than Ventress choking them.

Maul disagrees with you. His thoughts were more along the lines of "damn no matter how powerful I have become, I'm still in awe of how effortlessly Sidious is taking us on" Not "Oh, if only I had my biological legs and weapon of choice, then maybe I would be able to apply my new powers more effectively"

But yeah. I know I keep saying I am going to end this debate, but this time I think I'm serious. You keep making claims without backing them up. When you can give me a reason why Maul would not be in a fit of rage similar to the one on Hypori, then I will hear you out. Otherwise, I'm not interested in your opinion. Maul has even more of a reason to be extremely angry, seeing how all of his efforts were thrown right in his face and was denied back as an apprentice.

Don't know why you made this rant when I've already stated this:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Heard it direct from Dave Filoni's mouth that in the season opener Obi-Wan does indeed

Spoiler:
Defeat Maul and Opress together by going Jar Kai on them. Who knew Obi-Wan was so good at Jar Kai? That's actually kind of cool so I don't mind at all. It's supposed to be a stunning fight.

But clearly for someone who is well versed in Jar Kai wielding Dual Sabers can give a huge boost in Saber Prowess. Because earlier in the same episode Obi-Wan with his usual single Saber can't defeat Maul in a one on one.

So anyway no need to continue this, because obviously given that info Sidious going Jar Kai WILL Absolutely Stomp these 2. So there's really no point in arguing just how easy it will be for him.

But don't give me I've not backed anything up. I've backed everything up, and could easily continue to address all your arguments like I have been doing, but won't bother due to what I've written above.

And no Fisto clearly isn't on Obi-Wan's level. Obi-Wan using Jar Kai to

Spoiler:
defeat both Savage and Maul is Amazing

Also defeating Dark side Anakin is also well beyond Kit Fisto.

Also S66 what kind of Amp do you think Maul has had?? It's obviously not a huge amp, otherwise he would have easily destroyed Obi-wan or Ventress when he fought them.

And if you knew anything about Maul you would know he fights best with his Saber Staff. He also has exceptional Jar Kai skills like Obi-Wan and Sidious, as mentioned by many sources.

He was still in awe of Sidious's power despite his power having somewhat increased. That's all. And is also further proof how much he admires him, even when Sidious is trying to kill him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku force chokes and levitates Obi Wan while force pushing then kicking Anakin into a wall (or floor?). He did this with far LESS effort than Ventress choking them.

Just wanted to correct this.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just wanted to correct this.

"Dooku force chokes and levitates Obi Wan while force pushing then kicking Anakin into a wall (or floor?). He did this with far LESS effort than Ventress choking them."

It doesn't matter S66. The point is that's not something she can do anytime. And your reasoning that they were caught off guard doesn't matter because they were clearly trying to break free but couldn't.

Your example of what Count Dooku did is a good one, except it displays a combination of power and skill. He was only Choking Obi-Wan, not Anakin. He kicked Anakin out of the way so he could dispose of Obi-Wan but problem is Anakin was still around.

In fact in all his one on one fights against Anakin he has never once been able to Force choke Anakin even on his own (apart from when he was disarmed and thoroughly beaten by Dooku+Magnaguards).

So what Ventress did that one time in a fit of rage was clearly obviously not something she can do any time or she would be a rival to Dooku in the Force.

Anger/ Rage is something encouraged by the Sith, because that's where they draw their power from. And they try to make them angry as psooible on a permanent basis, but that doesn't mean they're in a permanent fit of rage. They are not constantly at the maximum level of Rage they can possibly reach at all times. That's not possible.

And Maul and Ventress don't have the Force reserves to permanently pull off the kind of power they have both displayed in their Rage boosts. They heavily draw on their force reserves in those moments, which is why it only lasts so long before they quickly get tired.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It doesn't matter S66. The point is that's not something she can do anytime. And your reasoning that they were caught off guard doesn't matter because they were clearly trying to break free but couldn't.

Your example of what Count Dooku did is a good one, except it displays a combination of power and skill. He was only Choking Obi-Wan, not Anakin. He kicked Anakin out of the way so he could dispose of Obi-Wan but problem is Anakin was still around.

I believe Dooku used a force push on Anakin right before he kicked him. I'll have to watch that scene again.

My point is that it took a lot of concentration and heavy force usage for Ventress to choke Anakin and Obi Wan, whereas it took no effort at all for Dooku to force choke Obi Wan and force push Anakin simultaneously.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In fact in all his one on one fights against Anakin he has never once been able to Force choke Anakin even on his own (apart from when he was disarmed and thoroughly beaten by Dooku+Magnaguards).

Every time Anakin fights Dooku one on one, he seems to be angry and draws from the dark side.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So what Ventress did that one time in a fit of rage was clearly obviously not something she can do any time or she would be a rival to Dooku in the Force.

It's possible that a fully trained Ventress would have rivaled Dooku. Perhaps even surpassed him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anger/ Rage is something encouraged by the Sith, because that's where they draw their power from. And they try to make them angry as psooible on a permanent basis, but that doesn't mean they're in a permanent fit of rage. They are not constantly at the maximum level of Rage they can possibly reach at all times. That's not possible.

Do you not remember how effortlessly Dooku managed lift those huge triangle stones on serenno, whereas it took a fit of rage for Savage to barely lift a few before he tired out quickly? One fit of rage was not enough for Savage to unlock all of his powers despite the fact that he is magically inhanced by magic, which basically allows him to unlock his powers at a far quicker rate than most force users, so how do you figure that one fit of rage is enough to put Maul on the level of one of the most powerful force users in the mythos?

By your logic Sidious was more powerful during his murder of his family than he was when he fought Yoda, because he was in a fit of rage then.

Maul, who is fully trained, with more power at his disposal, and in a similar fit of rage should be more powerful than he was during his fight with Sidious on Hypori.

Giving into the rage is like a Force steroid. It's a temporary boost to current power, but with problems.

Harnessed rage (Sidious, Plaeguis, Malgus ect.) is the pinnacle of Dark Side power enhancement, so to speak, akin to how the Jedi is at his most powerful when he is calm and at one with the force.

Or at least, that's how I've always seen this sort of thing.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I believe Dooku used a force push on Anakin right before he kicked him. I'll have to watch that scene again.

My point is that it took a lot of concentration and heavy force usage for Ventress to choke Anakin and Obi Wan, whereas it took no effort at all for Dooku to force choke Obi Wan and force push Anakin simultaneously.

Nope there was no force push on Anakin. It was a combination of power and skill and overall uberness. Dooku's attack was more effective. I'm not arguing that.

Point being in that one scene Ventress displayed more raw power in the force than we have ever seen Dooku display against those same 2 Opponents or any 2 Jedi Opponents simultaneously as far as I can remember.

The concentration thing is also kind of moot. Unless you think Dooku could have done significantly better against the combined force of ROTS Anakin and ROTS Obi-Wan if he concentrated harder.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Every time Anakin fights Dooku one on one, he seems to be angry and draws from the dark side.

Speculation. He usually seems angry when up against Ventress as well. And didn't seem particularly angry when up against Dooku in Shadow Warrior. He was really just defending himself in that episode.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's possible that a fully trained Ventress would have rivaled Dooku. Perhaps even surpassed him.

No way. There's a reason Sidious didn't think much of her, and wasn't interested in her at all as a possible replacement for Dooku.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Do you not remember how effortlessly Dooku managed lift those huge triangle stones on serenno, whereas it took a fit of rage for Savage to barely lift a few before he tired out quickly? One fit of rage was not enough for Savage to unlock all of his powers despite the fact that he is magically inhanced by magic, which basically allows him to unlock his powers at a far quicker rate than most force users, so how do you figure that one fit of rage is enough to put Maul on the level of one of the most powerful force users in the mythos?

By your logic Sidious was more powerful during his murder of his family than he was when he fought Yoda, because he was in a fit of rage then.

Obviously level of training makes a big difference as well S66. ROTS Anakin in a fit of rage would be much more powerful than AOTC Anakin in a fit of rage.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maul, who is fully trained, with more power at his disposal, and in a similar fit of rage should be more powerful than he was during his fight with Sidious on Hypori.

If he was in a similar fit of rage, then yes you'd be right. But there's nothing to suggest he was. My whole point here was Sidious wouldn't or at least shouldn't play around with these 2 risking them both Raging at him. And I do believe the Jar Kai is a BIG INDICATION that he wasn't playing.

Also remember on Hypori he was at the peak of his combat training and used his Saber Staff (his chosen weapon for combat at the time) and went head to head with Sidious who was wielding a Single Saber.

Whilst in CW he is still only wielding a Single Saber and this time going up against a frigging Jar Kai'ing Sidious! (And we know from Obi-Wan's example what a HUGE difference that can make in Saber Prowess for someone skilled at that).

And despite having some extra raw power at his disposal, you really can't argue a guy whose been in a straight jacket for 10 years and lost half his body is going to immediately be at his peak combat fitness/effectiveness again.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
Giving into the rage is like a Force steroid. It's a temporary boost to current power, but with problems.

Harnessed rage (Sidious, Plaeguis, Malgus ect.) is the pinnacle of Dark Side power enhancement, so to speak, akin to how the Jedi is at his most powerful when he is calm and at one with the force.

Or at least, that's how I've always seen this sort of thing.

👆

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
Giving into the rage is like a Force steroid. It's a temporary boost to current power, but with problems.

Yup, basically, but some seem to believe that a fit rage can somehow momentarily max out a force user to their full potential. I mean, it can if they are well trained and already near their limit. But in Maul's case, he wasn't even fully trained during the time of his test on Hypori. Sidious didn't even grant him the title of 'sith lord' until he passed that test. So it's silly to believe that Maul's first full fit of rage can momentarily bring him up to Sidious's level, unless his raw power at that time nearly matches that of Sidious's, which of course it doesn't. Maul's raw power at that time or any time does not even begin to approach Sidious's.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
Harnessed rage (Sidious, Plaeguis, Malgus ect.) is the pinnacle of Dark Side power enhancement, so to speak, akin to how the Jedi is at his most powerful when he is calm and at one with the force.

If DP actually agrees with this, then I don't see how he actually thinks Maul (in a fit of rage) can be a match for Sidious, unless he actually believes Maul's raw power to be near Sidious's, and if he actually believes that, then he definitely needs to calm down with the "fanboyism" remarks.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Point being in that one scene Ventress displayed more raw power in the force than we have ever seen Dooku display against those same 2 Opponents or any 2 Jedi Opponents simultaneously as far as I can remember.

Dooku was never put in a desperate situation of near defeat like that.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
The concentration thing is also kind of moot. Unless you think Dooku could have done significantly better against the combined force of ROTS Anakin and ROTS Obi-Wan if he concentrated harder.

Yes, I do think that if Dooku was in a similar situation he could have likely done better. The only time he was in that sort of situation, was when his hands were cut off and he was against an opponent who was in a focused rage himself and whose raw power exceeded Dooku's.

It clearly required a lot of effort and concentration for Ventress to focus her rage like that. So if I am to believe Dooku is more powerful and has a greater command of the force than Ventress, then why wouldn't I believe Dooku could have done better, especially seeing how effortlessly he disposed of Obi Wan in the middle of a duel, while kicking Anakin into a wall, and then proceeding to drop part of a balcony on Obi Wan before Anakin could get back on his feet. Dooku's feat was almost as impressive as Ventress's, despite the fact Ventress was in a fit a rage (which still required her a lot of concentration and far more effort).

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
Speculation. He usually seems angry when up against Ventress as well. And didn't seem particularly angry when up against Dooku in Shadow Warrior. He was really just defending himself in that episode.

Moreso with Dooku though. Anakin usually kicks Ventress's ass quite handily when he is angry.

And I will have to re-watch the scene from "Shadow Warrior." I always remember Anakin to be angry in his duels against Dooku. The only time he seems to try to hold back his anger is when he is fighting alongside Obi Wan.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
Obviously level of training makes a big difference as well S66. ROTS Anakin in a fit of rage would be much more powerful than AOTC Anakin in a fit of rage.

Exactly!

A calm ROTS Anakin is also more powerful than a AOTC Anakin who is in a fit of rage. Early in the clone wars, Anakin, in a fit of rage, attacked A'Sharad Hett and was easily disarmed. A'Sharad Hett is probably a bit below Obi Wan's level. Would you argue that A'Sharad hett can easily disarm ROTS Anakin who is NOT in a fit of rage? No, because ROTS Anakin is better trained, more powerful, and can utilize his power far more effectively and would not require to be in a fit of rage to defeat Hett.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
If he was in a similar fit of rage, then yes you'd be right. But there's nothing to suggest he was.

Well I'm not going to discuss that with you until you can provide proof that he wouldn't be in a similar fit of rage. As I said, he would have even more of a reason to be extremely angry with Sidious, seeing how he accomplished so much for Sidious only to have it thrown right in his face, and him denied as an apprentice.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
My whole point here was Sidious [b]wouldn't or at least shouldn't play around with these 2 risking them both Raging at him. And I do believe the Jar Kai is a BIG INDICATION that he wasn't playing.[/B]

If Sidious truly found them a huge threat as you claim, then it seems like he would have brought help, not an extra lightsaber.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
Also remember on Hypori he was at the peak of his combat training and used his Saber Staff (his chosen weapon for combat at the time) and went head to head with Sidious who was wielding a Single Saber.

Maul was not at peak in his FORCE training. His test on Hypori was the first time he fully embraced his rage, which allowed him utilize his, as UltimateAnomaly calls it, "current power" to it's fullest, and possibly even served to unlocked more of his potential. His first full fit of rage is not enough to max him out to Sidious level or even close to it. He doesn't have the raw power at his disposal that comes close to matching Sidious's.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
Whilst in CW he is still only wielding a Single Saber and this time going up against a frigging Jar Kai'ing Sidious! (And we know from Obi-Wan's example what a HUGE difference that can make in Saber Prowess for someone skilled at that).

We still need more on that fight. I'm still wondering how the hell can Obi Wan hold on to his saber, using one hand, when he couldn't, using two.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
And despite having some extra raw power at his disposal, you really can't argue a guy whose been in a straight jacket for 10 years and lost half his body is going to immediately be at his peak combat fitness/effectiveness again.

Maul's musings make it quite clear that his new powers allowed him to fight more effectively than he did before his injuries on Naboo. It wouldn't make sense for those musings to enter Maul's mind if he wasn't able to utilize his powers to the best of his abilities.

Maybe Maul has adapted to using one saber, IDK. But I do know however that Maul's opinion about himself matters more than yours.

Am I going insane or in your post S66, the quotes say it's coming from me rather than D-Power. 0_o. XD.

Apart from what I actually did write, which you replied to at the top of you post.

You're going insane. lol

No, I see what you're talking about. I copied and pasted this *Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly* on top of all of DP's quotes that I replied to. I was in bit of a rush. Sorry, my mistake.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

If DP actually agrees with this, then I don't see how he actually thinks Maul (in a fit of rage) can be a match for Sidious, unless he actually believes Maul's raw power to be near Sidious's, and if he actually believes that, then he definitely needs to calm down with the "fanboyism" remarks.

Oh for the love of GOD would you quit whining about that One comment from what's probably like 10 Pages ago now!! Jeeeeezz!

And yes Maul in a fit of rage reaching his pinnacle of power at the pinnacle of his training with his Saber Staff Almost matched Sidious on an average day wielding a Single Saber.

I don't see what's so difficult to believe. Unless you think Maul's potential just isn't anywhere near that good, in which case it would make no sense for Sidious to train him in the first place Imo.

In any case it's canon. It can never be fanboyism to accept canon material.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku was never put in a desperate situation of near defeat like that.
Yes, I do think that if Dooku was in a similar situation he could have likely done better. The only time he was in that sort of situation, was when his hands were cut off and he was against an opponent who was in a focused rage himself and whose raw power exceeded Dooku's.

He has been in some very desperate situations against Just Anakin by himself.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It clearly required a lot of effort and concentration for Ventress to focus her rage like that. So if I am to believe Dooku is more powerful and has a greater command of the force than Ventress, then why wouldn't I believe Dooku could have done better, especially seeing how effortlessly he disposed of Obi Wan in the middle of a duel, while kicking Anakin into a wall, and then proceeding to drop part of a balcony on Obi Wan before Anakin could get back on his feet. Dooku's feat was almost as impressive as Ventress's, despite the fact Ventress was in a fit a rage (which still required her a lot of concentration and far more effort).

Again with the concentration thing. Just because Dooku wasn't screaming in a fit of rage doesn't mean he wasn't concentrating. He obviously was, just with more calm and finesse.

That was one of Dooku's greatest feats and I have a hard time seeing him do better than that against those 2, especially considering how his One-On-Ones with Anakin have gone in the past.

We can compare the 2 feats(Dooku's and Ventress's) and argue back and forth about which one was better, but the fact that we're even comparing them means Ventress obviously had a Huge Boost due to her rage. definitely not something she can repeat on command. Despite her clearly being very well trained in the dark side.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Exactly!

A calm ROTS Anakin is also more powerful than a AOTC Anakin who is in a fit of rage. Early in the clone wars, Anakin, in a fit of rage, attacked A'Sharad Hett and was easily disarmed. A'Sharad Hett is probably a bit below Obi Wan's level. Would you argue that A'Sharad hett can easily disarm ROTS Anakin who is NOT in a fit of rage? No, because ROTS Anakin is better trained, more powerful, and can utilize his power far more effectively and would not require to be in a fit of rage to defeat Hett.

You must have missed the part where it wasn't just the fact that Maul was in a fit of Rage, but he was clearly using all his combat abilities to their optimum level. So it's How he was Utilizing that Rage.

Still doesn't change the fact that the amount of Rage he was feeling was unique to that situation.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well I'm not going to discuss that with you until you can provide proof that he wouldn't be in a similar fit of rage. As I said, he would have even more of a reason to be extremely angry with Sidious, seeing how he accomplished so much for Sidious only to have it thrown right in his face, and him denied as an apprentice.

Lol you can't just make up and decide yourself when someone's going to act in a fit of rage. Like Arhael said rage/anger isn't that predictable. There has to be evidence from the scene in question.

Where's the evidence? When did Maul suddenly enhance his performance in that fight?? Where did the passage say "Maul suddenly strikes out with a new sense of fury"??

And I've already fully addressed how the 2 situations are completely different but your just ignoring that. So yes don't continue this point until you've addressed my arguments on how different the situations were and when you've shown specific evidence from the scene in that he is in a fit of rage.

And not just the highly speculative "well I think he would be so I will assume he was" nonsense.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Sidious truly found them a huge threat as you claim, then it seems like he would have brought help, not an extra lightsaber.

Why would he? All he needs is a Second Saber and they're no match/no threat to him whatsoever.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
We still need more on that fight. I'm still wondering how the hell can Obi Wan hold on to his saber, using one hand, when he couldn't, using two.

Jar Kai's a completely different fighting form. One in which Obi-Wan is obviously exceptionally skilled. He obviously won't try to Block and get into Saber Locks One handed with Savage. But he can attack twice as fast, he can deflect an attack and attack simultaneously as well.

Add Obi-Wan excellent Jar Kai skills to his Mastery of Soresu and he may very well be one the the Top PT Saber duelists.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maul's musings make it quite clear that his new powers allowed him to fight more effectively than he did before his injuries on Naboo. It wouldn't make sense for those musings to enter Maul's mind if he wasn't able to utilize his powers to the best of his abilities.

Maybe Maul has adapted to using one saber, IDK. But I do know however that Maul's opinion about himself matters more than yours.

Funny, because when it suits you you talk about how Fallible Maul's opinion is of his effectiveness against Sidious. But at other times you take his opinion as fact.

IIRC he didn't ever say his Combat effectiveness is at it's all time peak. No, he was musing on how his power has increased, (probably TK & force enhanced abilities) but how it's still no match for Sidious's power (Sidious's TK, and Sidious's Force Enahnced abilities).

He's always been completely competent with a Single Saber. But he was best with his Saber Staff. And his Jar Kai skills are also supposed to be superb.

From the writers point of view they probably don't want both Maul & Savage carrying Saber Staffs.

From the story's perspective he's probably been too busy with his big schemes to find the time to create a new Saber staff.

Back to the Sidious vs Mace thing, I've been reading over Nai's comments on the topic and I think he's right.

It doesn't say Mace "deflects" Sidious's power and rage. It says he "reflects" it. There's a big difference in those 2 words.

Reflect doesn't mean harming in any way. How can it?

The whole superconducting loop seems to be completely harmless to both Sidious and Mace. I think the Loop is nothing more than a side-effect of Mace using Vapaad, and not it's purpose.

Also just before Mace disarms Sidious it again describes Sidious as a "blur of speed" except this time it's from Mace's point of view. Why would Mace see Sidious as a "blur of speed" if he himself were moving just as fast??

So as fast as Mace was I don't think he ever quite matched Sidious's speed. He did however best Sidious in the fencing match they had with the use of Vapaad, (the deadliest lightsaber form according to Yoda) transforming his dark emotions into a weapon of light.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Reflect doesn't mean harming in any way. How can it?

It depends on what you're reflecting. Obviously if you're reflecting something that's potentially lethal or harmful, then yes it can be interpreted as harming.

re·flect (r-flkt)

v. re·flect·ed, re·flect·ing, re·flects
v.tr.
1. To throw or bend back (light, for example) from a surface. See Synonyms at echo.
2. To give back or show an image of (an object); mirror.
3. To make apparent; express or manifest: Her work reflects intelligence.
4. To bring as a consequence: The victory reflects credit on the coach.
5. Archaic To bend back.
v.intr.
1. To be bent or thrown back: Her voice reflected off the canyon walls.
2. To give something back, as light or sound: a shiny surface that reflects well.
3.
a. To give evidence of the characteristics or qualities of someone or something: That student's performance reflects well on the whole school.
b. To bring blame or discredit: Hasty preparation of the report will reflect on you.
4.
a. To think seriously. See Synonyms at think.
b. To express carefully considered thoughts: In the essay, he reflects on his career.

The word deflect simply means to turn away or to turn aside as opposed to bending back (i.e. back to the source of origin).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Also just before Mace disarms Sidious it again describes Sidious as a "blur of speed" except this time it's from Mace's point of view.

"Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a
bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out
of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which
danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the
darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade,
that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an
oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be
dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be
Palpatine?"

This is clearly coming from Anakin's point of view.

Mace seemed to be described as moving every bit as fast as Sidious in their duel.

And regarding the superconducting loop created by Vaapad, the way I am reading it, Mace is somehow able to tap into Sidious' rage/fury and utilize it against him - in effect redirecting it back at him.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
It depends on what you're reflecting. Obviously if you're reflecting something that's potentially lethal or harmful, then yes it can be interpreted as harming.

re·flect (r-flkt)

v. re·flect·ed, re·flect·ing, re·flects
v.tr.
1. To throw or bend back (light, for example) from a surface. See Synonyms at echo.
2. To give back or show an image of (an object); mirror.
3. To make apparent; express or manifest: Her work reflects intelligence.
4. To bring as a consequence: The victory reflects credit on the coach.
5. Archaic To bend back.
v.intr.
[b]1. To be bent or thrown back: Her voice reflected off the canyon walls.
2. To give something back, as light or sound: a shiny surface that reflects well.
3.
a. To give evidence of the characteristics or qualities of someone or something: That student's performance reflects well on the whole school.
b. To bring blame or discredit: Hasty preparation of the report will reflect on you.
4.
a. To think seriously. See Synonyms at think.
b. To express carefully considered thoughts: In the essay, he reflects on his career. [/B]

Even in the one you've highlighted, it gives the example of a voice reflecting off a canyon. Does the voice in any way effect or harm the canyon?? I would think not.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The word deflect simply means to turn away or to turn aside as opposed to bending back (i.e. back to the source of origin).

de·flect/diˈflekt/
Verb:

Cause (something) to change direction by interposing something; turn aside from a straight course.
(of an object) Change direction after hitting something: "the ball deflected off his body".

With deflect the example is given of a physical object. As in something that can do physical harm. If the ball is deflected back at me and I don't catch it it will hit me and hurt me.

When talking about how a Lightsaber shoots a laser back to Impact on the opponent, then the correct word to use would be DEflect, not REflect.

But the phrase in the ROTS novel is not comparing the Impact itself, it's comparing how Vapaad "Reflects" the rage and power to how a Lightsaber "redirects" blaster fire.

But the fact is it still only reflects. And no comparison is made to the Impact blaster fire has when it is deflected back.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Mace seemed to be described as moving every bit as fast as Sidious in their duel.

I'm sure I just read last night that even Mace sees him as a blur of speed. But I will re-check when I get home and post the line.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
And regarding the superconducting loop created by Vaapad, the way I am reading it, Mace is somehow able to tap into Sidious' rage/fury and utilize it against him - in effect redirecting it back at him.

The only problem is there's no mention of Mace using/utilizing the loop.

And like Nai kept pointing out, a superconductor just let's energy flow through without making any use of it, so if Mace was making use of it then why the false analogy to a superconductor??

I think Mace is just that good JT. Considering Yoda absolutely battered Sidious in the Lightsaber duel (according to the script) I'm sure the second most powerful Jedi could match and even Best the Sith Lord (in a fencing match that is. He's obviously not as powerful in the force).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok so if that's non-canon, then where exactly are we getting that Mace was exactly as fast as Sidious??

When did I say that he did match his speed? All I said was that he got faster. However, given that he was matching Sidious in prolonged combat and eventually overpowered him, I would say that they were close to equal in terms of speed. The fact that Sidious was able to blitz the other Masters but was unable to do so against Mace supports this assumption.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where was he matching Sidious's speed?? You do realize that to match or defeat someone in combat you don't necessarily have to match their speed??

If Mace wasn't close to Sidious in terms of speed he wouldn't have been able to block Sidious' lightsaber. It's that simple.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's not the narrator talking in that scene, and it's never clearly stated that Mace matched Sidious's speed.

Correct, it's Mace Windu aka THE MAN WHO INVENTED VAPAAD. To not take his word about the functionality of Vapaad is insanity.

And for the record, the author who wrote the RotS novelization and Mace's duel with Palpatine was not some random writer with no knowledge of what Mace can do. It was Matthew Stover, the author who wrote Shatterpoint and basically gave Mace legitimate character. I tend to believe what Stover tells us about Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Never was it stated his Vapaad was incomplete. Mace states Vappad mastered him after his turn to the darkside. Before his turn to the dark side Mace stated Bulq knows Vapaad almost as well as he does. He actually helped him develop it.

Depa also turned to the darkside. So what can she not use Vapaad now either?? Fact is when Sora fought Dooku he was a lightsider and he knew Vapaad very well at that point. So accprding to how your claiming Vapaad works it should have given him an incredible boost to match Dooku's strength, speed and power.

Well then I assume that Dooku simple defeated him by being more skilled than him. I certainly don't see how this is supposed to disprove the idea of Vapaad functioning in this way.

I never said that Depa didn't use it either.

Also, I have heard the idea that Mace had an unusual amount of darkness in him during that fight, which allowed him a greater amp than Vapaad usually gave him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What are you talking about??

You, and the defecation coming out of your keyboard.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We already know Mace moves incredibly fast from that quote.

We also know that some woman called Guri moves 'impossibly fast', but that doesn't make her as fast as RotJ Luke or Palpatine either. Simply having something suggesting speed does not equate to being as fast as Sidious. Plus, that quote is talking about Mace as he is fighting Sidious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Accepting Sidious's speed does not equate to Sidious boosting Mace's own speed to a new level.

That part your interpreting for yourself.

Then what does it mean? What is the other interpretation for that quote?

However, if you require more support, try this out:

'Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.'

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

Before Mace tapped into his amp, Palpatine killed Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar before Mace even realized it, meaning Sidious is faster than Mace to a ridiculous degree under normal circumstances. Remember that Mace had his lightsaber out, ready for Sidious' attack and that Sidious clearly telegraphed that he was going to attack before he did, yet Sidious is able to kill Kolar Tiin and Fisto before Mace realizes what has happened. Its not as if Mace was caught off guard or anything. He was clearly ready for Sidious' attack, and yet Sidious still was able to outspeed him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Like I said show me a canon source anywhere that specifically says Vapaad gives a lightsider an "extra boost" when fighting a darksider.

'He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.'

Here's the novel's description of their duel:

Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life.
More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of
lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and
peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their
own ways.
He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.
Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name
from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of
Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its
blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not
uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever
killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many
tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count.
Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.
Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its
power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates
that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must
allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the
thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads
through the penumbra of the dark side.
Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living
master.
This was Vaapad's ultimate test.
Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a
bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out
of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which
danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the
darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade,
that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an
oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be
dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be
Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts
of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that
Anakin could not truly see them—
But he could feel them in the Force.
The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them,
boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent.
And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though
some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.
There was no Jedi restraint here.
Mace Windu was cutting loose.
Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by
it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both
ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the
shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a
blaster bolt.
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of
the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in
himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding:
on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had
learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him.
But—
Neither did he have power over it.Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting
loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of
battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's
office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might
not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands
became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the
air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or
overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the
endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the
possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's
only gift.
The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle
it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and
crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders
turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along
the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.
Feeling for its shatterpoint.
He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he
chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the
now—
And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the
slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in
the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking
through a thunderhead.
The chosen one was here.
Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the
window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish.
His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force
nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he
slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer
from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his
head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so
could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the
shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them
both out onto the window ledge.
Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rainslicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.
Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the
shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Forcepowered grip on the slippery permacrete.
Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and
slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The
other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell
through the rain toward the distant alleys below.
Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning
hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.
"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord,"
Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."

This part below supports the idea that Mace is somehow able to tap into Sidious' rage/fury and utilize it against him - in effect redirecting it back at him.:

"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the
shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again."

The novel does a very thorough job of explaining how Vaapad worked for Mace Windu. I fail to see the confusion. It's pretty clear.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even in the one you've highlighted, it gives the example of a voice reflecting off a canyon. Does the voice in any way effect or harm the canyon?? I would think not.

de·flect/diˈflekt/
Verb:

Cause (something) to change direction by interposing something; turn aside from a straight course.
(of an object) Change direction after hitting something:[b] "the ball deflected off his body".

With deflect the example is given of a physical object. As in something that can do physical harm. If the ball is deflected back at me and I don't catch it it will hit me and hurt me.

When talking about how a Lightsaber shoots a laser back to Impact on the opponent, then the correct word to use would be DEflect, not REflect.

But the phrase in the ROTS novel is not comparing the Impact itself, it's comparing how Vapaad "Reflects" the rage and power to how a Lightsaber "redirects" blaster fire.

But the fact is it still only reflects. And no comparison is made to the Impact blaster fire has when it is deflected back. [/B]

WTF is this shit?

The text directly compares it reflecting blaster fire. You are just hiding behind pointless semantics now.