Ventress and Oppress versus Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Even in the one you've highlighted, it gives the example of a voice reflecting off a canyon. Does the voice in any way effect or harm the canyon?? I would think not.

de·flect/diˈflekt/
Verb:

Cause (something) to change direction by interposing something; turn aside from a straight course.
(of an object) Change direction after hitting something: "the ball deflected off his body".

With deflect the example is given of a physical object. As in something that can do physical harm. If the ball is deflected back at me and I don't catch it it will hit me and hurt me.

When talking about how a Lightsaber shoots a laser back to Impact on the opponent, then the correct word to use would be DEflect, not REflect.

But the phrase in the ROTS novel is not comparing the Impact itself, it's comparing how Vapaad "Reflects" the rage and power to how a Lightsaber "redirects" blaster fire.

But the fact is it still only reflects. And no comparison is made to the Impact blaster fire has when it is deflected back.[/B]

DP - stop it man. You're coming across as extremely desperate and really grasping for straws / stretching things. This part of the debate is over. You have lost. Deal with it and don't embarrass yourself any further.

Everyone seems to have Ants in their Pants today:

Originally posted by Nephthys
WTF is this shit?

The text directly compares it reflecting blaster fire. You are just hiding behind pointless semantics now.

The text also calls the Loop a Superconducting loop. A superconducting loop is not affected by the energy that flows through it. But you keep ignoring that and sticking to the blaster bolt analogy.

Anyway it compares how Mace is "Reflecting" Sidious's Rage to how a Lightsaber "Redirects" a blaster bolt.

But the passage still describes what Mace is doing as "Reflecting" not "Deflecting".

Reflection is a natural occurrence, whilst deflection involves another force.

If Mace was purposefully redirecting some form of energy himself, then the correct word would be Deflect and not Reflect.

It's not semantics. When the passage is full is full of metaphors, then the exact words used are important to understand the proper context.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai

"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, [b]drew the
shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again." [/B]

He "Let it" fountain out. He didn't purposefully shoot it out in a certain way and direction. He's Letting a natural process occur.

And it "Fountains Out".. What use does a fountain make of the water flowing through it?? None. It just lets water flow through.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The novel does a very thorough job of explaining how Vaapad worked for Mace Windu. I fail to see the confusion. It's pretty clear.

Brilliant. If it's perfectly clear you can explain to me how a real superconducting loop works and tell me how that relates to Vapaad's Superconducting loop.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
DP - stop it man. You're coming across as extremely desperate and really grasping for straws / stretching things. This part of the debate is over. You have lost. Deal with it and don't embarrass yourself any further.

What are you talking about?? I've hardly even touched on this particular debate and certainly haven't had a proper debate on it. So how could I have lost? I didn't even have an opinion on it because I wasn't decided.

What excatly am I desperate about? Your not making any sense JT. If you were referring to the long debate me and S66 have been having and were convinced he thoroughly kicked my butt, then I would understand what your saying. But for this?? Nah you've completely lost me.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The text also calls the Loop a Superconducting loop. A superconducting loop is not affected by the energy that flows through it. But you keep ignoring that and sticking to the blaster bolt analogy.

Anyway it compares how Mace is "Reflecting" Sidious's Rage to how a Lightsaber "Redirects" a blaster bolt.

But the passage still describes what Mace is doing as "Reflecting" not "Deflecting".

Reflection is a natural occurrence, whilst deflection involves another force.

If Mace was purposefully redirecting some form of energy himself, then the correct word would be Deflect and not Reflect.

It's not semantics. When the passage is full is full of metaphors, then the exact words used are important to understand the proper context.

Holy shit. 'Reflect' and 'Redirect' mean practically the same goddamn thing. You are seriously overanalysing this. Looking at the exact words used it and how they minorly differ from each other is some serious reaching.

The text says that Mace 'reflected' Sidious' fury like one would 'redirect' a blaster bolt. The text itself indicates that its comparing those two words and what they entail. Your point is dumb.

Now answer the rest of what I wrote, assuming you can.

Originally posted by Nephthys

However, if you require more support, try this out:

'Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.'

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

Before Mace tapped into his amp, Palpatine killed Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar before Mace even realized it, meaning Sidious is faster than Mace to a ridiculous degree under normal circumstances. Remember that Mace had his lightsaber out, ready for Sidious' attack [b]and that Sidious clearly telegraphed that he was going to attack before he did, yet Sidious is able to kill Kolar Tiin and Fisto before Mace realizes what has happened. Its not as if Mace was caught off guard or anything. He was clearly ready for Sidious' attack, and yet Sidious still was able to outspeed him.

[/B]

So what are you saying? That in a One-On-One Sidious would Blitz Mace too?? Since he didn't realize what happened in the first few seconds of the fight.

That quote contradicts the film where Mace clearly did react. How could he not know what was happening when Fisto died. He was already fighting Sidious at that point!

What does it matter if it comes naturally or not? Mace is taking in Sidious's speed, rage, power, etc. and using it for his own.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Holy shit. 'Reflect' and 'Redirect' mean practically the same goddamn thing. You are seriously overanalysing this. Looking at the exact words used it and how they minorly differ from each other is some serious reaching.

The text says that Mace 'reflected' Sidious' fury like one would 'redirect' a blaster bolt. The text itself indicates that its comparing those two words and what they entail. Your point is dumb.

No there's different types of Redirection. A purposeful one and a natural one. Reflect pretty much always refers to natural phenomenon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Now answer the rest of what I wrote, assuming you can.

LOL Getting mixed messages here. JT told me to stop.

I will respond if you like, but just calm down first.

Originally posted by ares834
What does it matter if it comes naturally or not? Mace is taking in Sidious's speed, rage, power, etc. and using it for his own.

I doesn't say he drew in his speed. It says he accepted it. It doesn't say he reflected his speed. It says he reflected his fury.

And I'm looking for where it says that Mace "used" Sidious's power for himself. But can't find it.

Also ares are you referring to the Loop? Because it specifically calls it a superconducting loop. And when a superconductor is put in a loop, energy only flows through it. It's never "used".

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So what are you saying? That in a One-On-One Sidious would Blitz Mace too?? Since he didn't realize what happened in the first few seconds of the fight.

That quote contradicts the film where Mace clearly did react. How could he not know what was happening when Fisto died. He was already fighting Sidious at that point!

Considering Sidious has time to stab 2 Jedi before Mace does anything, I wouldn't rule out that possibility.

Mace was clearly acting on instinct. The quote never says he didn't react, just that he didn't realise what was happening.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No there's different types of Redirection. A purposeful one and a natural one. Reflect pretty much always refers to natural phenomenon.

Why should I care? The text compares what mace is doing to redirecting a blaster bolt.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I doesn't say he drew in his speed. It says he accepted it.

And what exactly do you think that means?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I doesn't say he drew in his speed. It says he accepted it. It doesn't say he reflected his speed. It says he reflected his fury.

And I'm looking for where it says that Mace "used" Sidious's power for himself. But can't find it.

Jesus Christ really?

"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center— And let it fountain out again."

Wow! I wonder what Mace was releasing? It couldn't be the three things mentioned in the previous sentence could it?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also ares are you referring to the Loop? Because it specifically calls it a superconducting loop. And when a superconductor is put in a loop, energy only flows through it. It's never "used".

Yes, it's returned to the "source"... Which in this case is Palpatine. Mace is "returning" Palpatine's dark energy to Palpatine via attacking him with it...

Edit: And you failed to mention the relevance of it being a natural phenomena or not.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering Sidious has time to stab 2 Jedi before Mace does anything, I wouldn't rule out that possibility.

Mace was clearly acting on instinct. The quote never says he didn't react, just that he didn't realise what was happening.

And how could he not know what was happening at the time Fisto died?? He was already fighting him.

Not that it matters too much. It takes Mace time to fully submerge into Vapaad and Vapaad gives Mace great speed.

"With a Vapaad one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade."

And I see there's nothing anywhere in the visual dictionary that states Mace was feeding off Sidious's power, because you or someone else surely would have posted that by now.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why should I care? The text compares what mace is doing to redirecting a blaster bolt.

And how does a Lightsaber redirect a blaster bolt? It just naturally bounces off. Since it was the "Fury" that was being "Reflected", that suggests the Fury of the darkside wasn't affecting him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And what exactly do you think that means?

That he accepted and acknowledged that Sidious is faster than him maybe?? And that doesn't seem to change throughout the fight:

"He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced;"

Why on Earth would Mace still be describing him as a "Blur" if Mace was moving just as fast as him?! That makes no sense. Mace was obviously still acknowledging Sidious being faster than him towards the end of the fight.

Originally posted by ares834
Jesus Christ really?

"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center— And let it fountain out again."

Wow! I wonder what Mace was releasing? It couldn't be the three things mentioned in the previous sentence could it?

It never makes any mention of him drawing in his speed. So that ones out. And the word fountain is just another word indicating to the superconducting loop. As in it's a system of flow not actaully being used for any purpose.

Find me any canonical source anywhere that supports this interpretation. Point me to a source that clearly(no metaphors) states Mace absorbed power from Sidious and used it against him.

I asked Neph to, and best he could provide me was give me a quote that said Mace didn't react to Tiin and Kolar's death. Hence he himslef is speculating that was because Mace hadn't absorbed Sidious's speed yet.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes, it's returned to the "source"... Which in this case is Palpatine. Mace is "returning" Palpatine's dark energy to Palpatine via attacking him with it...

Palpatine is described as the other half of the superconducting loop. So that can't be what it means, or Stover's seriously used the wrong analogy!

Again surely there must be a canon source somewhere which describes such a huge event and such a prime aspect of Vapaad.

Mace says describes in the same novel to Obi-Wan that he created Vapaad to use his Own Dark emotions and turns it into a weapon of light. He's not stated anywhere that he also uses his Opponents dark emotions and like wise turns That into a weapon.

Originally posted by ares834
Edit: And you failed to mention the relevance of it being a natural phenomena or not.

Well it means Mace isn't directing it to his own advantage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And how could he not know what was happening at the time Fisto died?? He was already fighting him.

Not that it matters too much. It takes Mace time to fully submerge into Vapaad and Vapaad gives Mace great speed.

[b]"With a Vapaad one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade."

And I see there's nothing anywhere in the visual dictionary that states Mace was feeding off Sidious's power, because you or someone else surely would have posted that by now. [/b]

Well if you want then I'll compromise that the quote is contradicted in Fisto's case. Yet it isn't in Tiin and Kolar's.

Correct, naturally Vaapad increases Mace's physical capabilities through embracing his own darkness. Just as UltimateAnomaly said, fury and hate can be used to increase a force users physical powers. That does not mean that it does not also do the same with his opponents darkness. After all:

'Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.'

I don't have the Visual Dictionary on me. The quote I got comes from a man called Silver2467.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And how does a Lightsaber redirect a blaster bolt? It just naturally bounces off. Since it was the "Fury" that was being "Reflected", that suggests the Fury of the darkside wasn't affecting him.

The text tells us; It reflects it back at ist source:

'He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.'

Just like a Jedi can reflect a blaster bolt back at the person shooting them. Simples.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That he accepted and a`cknowledged that Sidious is faster than him maybe?? And that doesn't seem to change throughout the fight:

"He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the [b]blur of Sith he faced;"

Why on Earth would Mace still be describing him as a "Blur" if Mace was moving just as fast as him?! That makes no sense. Mace was obviously still acknowledging Sidious being faster than him towards the end of the fight. [/B]

Ok, just no. As Ares said, thats fvcking stupid. The whole line is about reflecting Sidious' speed, fury and power back at him. Why would you need a line about Mace 'accepting' Sidious' speed in that he acknowledges it? It is blatantly obvious that it's talking about the speed as well as Sidious' fury and power when he says that he takes it into himself and lets it flow out again.

Because Sidious is a blur at the time? He needn't be one to Windu for him to say that line. Plus I never said that he was matching him. I do find it incredibly likely though. The text says that they were completely stalemated and could be indefinately if it wasn't for Mace's Shatterpoint.

Edit: Thats also why I find it likely that Mace was benefitting from Sidious' power. If he wasn't then why does the text note that they were stalemated and couldn't even get tired because of the superconductive loop?

'But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue. '

Neph already responded to something very similar to your first portion so I will not respond to that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Palpatine is described as the other half of the superconducting loop. So that can't be what it means, or Stover's seriously used the wrong analogy!

If we are taking this metaphor so damn literally, then for a superconductor loop to have a current in the first place it will need an initial source.

Who was the one who initially put out the dark power? Sidious. Therefore he is the source. Perhaps afterwards they are playing "ping pong" with said power, but that is merely speculation.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Again surely there must be a canon source somewhere which describes such a huge event and such a prime aspect of Vapaad.

There is. The ROTS novelization.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well if you want then I'll compromise that the quote is contradicted in Fisto's case. Yet it isn't in Tiin and Kolar's.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The text tells us; It reflects it back at ist source:

'He reflected the fury [b]upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.'

Just like a Jedi can reflect a blaster bolt back at the person shooting them. Simples.[/B]

Yeah only problem is Jedi's don't reflect blaster bolts. They deflect them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok, just no. As Ares said, thats fvcking stupid..

Yeah yeah I'm stupid on these boards. Whats new??

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Sidious is a blur at the time? He needn't be one to Windu for him to say that line. Plus I never said that he was matching him. I do find it incredibly likely though. The text says that they were completely stalemated and could be indefinately if it wasn't for Mace's Shatterpoint.

Well stalemating the fight is different to stalemating "speed" specifically. I mean surely Vapaad must give Mace greater skill in combat which could offset any difference potential difference in speed. Mace may also be stronger due to his great physical strength aiding his force enhanced strength.

The problem I'm finding is If he is stalemating his speed due to Vapaad then why is he still seeing him as a blur, and why is Anakin seeing Sidious move faster??

And before you say the Anakin part isn't canon, that really doesn't matter in this case as we are trying to interpret what Stover is describing, and for that we need to see what he has described in the whole passage and not just those parts we see happening in the film.

Like you said yourself Stover understands Vapaad better than anyone as he wrote Shatterpoint.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Edit: Thats also why I find it likely that Mace was benefitting from Sidious' power. If he wasn't then why does the text note that they were stalemated and couldn't even get tired because of the superconductive loop?

'But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue. '

Hey I'm not closed to the idea of Mace benefiting from Sidious's power. I actually would prefer the idea that Sidious and Yoda are clearly leagues above everyone else in power.

I'm just going through the points Nai made, because they do make sense. And I do find it Odd that this idea of Mace benefiting from his dark side opponent's power is not mentioned anywhere else. Like nowhere.

It's not mentioned in any source book, not mentioned in Shatterpoint, Mace himself doesn't say that's how Vapaad works when he describes to Obi-Wan that it turns his own darkness into a weapon of light. He compeltely forgot to mention that it takes his opponents darkness as well.

Originally posted by ares834

If we are taking this metaphor so damn literally, then for a superconductor loop to have a current in the first place it will need an initial source.

Well you and Neph have no problem taking the lightsaber to blaster bolt metaphor so literally when that actually is just a metaphor.

Whilst the superconducting loop is more likely the more important metaphor as it's the exact name given to what is happening.

Originally posted by ares834
Who was the one who initially put out the dark power? Sidious. Therefore he is the source. Perhaps afterwards they are playing "ping pong" with said power, but that is merely speculation.

Problem is the passage specifically says that Sidious completes the Loop. Not that he started it.

Both Mace and Sidious have darkness flowing through them.

Originally posted by ares834
There is. The ROTS novelization.

So no other source then outside that one passage filled with metaphors.

Listen both of you.

Like I told Neph I'm not closed to the idea of Mace benefiting from Sidious's power.

And I thought about it and the word Reflect could make sense in that context. If the Speed and Power Mace is displaying is a direct Reflection of the Speed and Power that Sidious is displaying.

That would actually make much more sense than him Deflecting it, because if he was actually deflecting all his own power back at him, then the fight would not have been equal at all.

But still too many things not making sense to me:

1. The exact description of the Superconducting loop which would suggest that whatever is being Looped is not effecting either of them.

2. Suggestions Mace did not exactly match Sidious's speed. Sidious being a Blur of speed, and though Mace was obviously fast, he's not described as a similar Blur.

3. It seems Sidious was still more powerful as well, as his force push almost finished Mace. (N..B. This happens in the Novel and in the Script).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

We still need more on that fight. I'm still wondering how the hell can Obi Wan hold on to his saber, using one hand, when he couldn't, using two.

Listened to another Interview with Dave Filoni and Sam Witwer. I can post them all if you like. Anyway Sam says Maul still isn't quite back to his PM level yet in this episode, but he's getting there slowly.

Dave says in the episode where Savage quickly beat Obi-Wan he wasn't as prepared and focused as he should have been.

Whilst in this new episode, he's more focused through the episode and fights with his optimum focus after Adi's death. And shows how exceptional a swordman he really is.

Obviously Sam's comments can't be treated as canon. Not sure about Dave's comments. Although both their comments should at least give us a better insight in to what's happening.

But I think it's at least clear that Obi-Wan's Jar Kai skills play a big part of his "exceptional sword skills" that are mentioned and displayed in this new episode, considering he's never done too well against Savage in the past with his single sword.

Edit: Sorry for the triple post!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah only problem is Jedi's don't reflect blaster bolts. They deflect them.

Since they are the same thing, thats no problem at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah yeah I'm stupid on these boards. Whats new??

You're not stupid and you shouldn't let anyone tell you that you are. It's just your argument that's lacking.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well stalemating the fight is different to stalemating "speed" specifically. I mean surely Vapaad must give Mace greater skill in combat which could offset any difference potential difference in speed.

That isn't possible. A lightsaber form can't give a person more skill. Nothing can give a person more skill except training, talent and experience.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace may also be stronger due to his great physical strength aiding his force enhanced strength.

This is likely true. As I (and you) have said, Mace uses Vapaad to turn his own darkness into a weapon of light. Force Users can use fury and hate etc to boost themselves in lightsaber duels aka Anakin, Luke etc.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The problem I'm finding is If he is stalemating his speed due to Vapaad then why is he still seeing him as a blur, and why is Anakin seeing Sidious move faster??

Anakin seeing anything of the fight is non-canon (too late I already said it!) and maybe Mace's perceptions just weren't able to keep up with the speeds they were moving at. He does mention that he's not even paying attention and basically fighting on autopilot at one point.

Plus I've already explained how that quote doesn't mean that Sidious is faster. Mace's narration describes him as a 'blur of speed', it doesn't not say that he appeared like that to Mace. Therefore there is no contradiction.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And before you say the Anakin part isn't canon, that really doesn't matter in this case as we are trying to interpret what Stover is describing, and for that we need to see what he has described in the whole passage and not just those parts we see happening in the film.

Like you said yourself Stover understands Vapaad better than anyone as he wrote Shatterpoint.

And yet we can't use non-canon material in debates. Its explicitly against the rules of the forum. In this case whatever Stover was trying to say is irrelevent. And I'm not convinced in the slightest that the text does point to Sidious being faster than Mace anyway.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Hey I'm not closed to the idea of Mace benefiting from Sidious's power. I actually would prefer the idea that Sidious and Yoda are clearly leagues above everyone else in power.

I'm just going through the points Nai made, because they do make sense. And I do find it Odd that this idea of Mace benefiting from his dark side opponent's power is not mentioned anywhere else. Like nowhere.

It's not mentioned in any source book, not mentioned in Shatterpoint, Mace himself doesn't say that's how Vapaad works when he describes to Obi-Wan that it turns his own darkness into a weapon of light. He compeltely forgot to mention that it takes his opponents darkness as well.

And yet the text in RotS clearly says 'Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways.'

There is no other explanation for that quote because immediately afterwards the narration goes on to talk about Mace drawing in (or could it be... channeling?) Sidious' power.

Since as you said Mace explains that Vapaad allows him to use his darkness as a weapon of light, and the text explicitly says that he channels Sidious' power as well, the only interpretation viable is that he channels both his and Sidious' power and then uses both of them as a weapon of light.

Checkmate.

Originally posted by Nephthys

That isn't possible. A lightsaber form can't give a person more skill. Nothing can give a person more skill except training, talent and experience.

Isn't that where all Saber skill comes from? The mastery of their chosen Lightsaber form?

Natural Talent and Experience just improves how well they use their chosen form right??

And Vapaad is a more Badass version of Juyo as far as I understand it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet the text in RotS clearly says 'Vaapad is a channel for darkness, [b]and that darkness flowed both ways.'

There is no other explanation for that quote because immediately afterwards the narration goes on to talk about Mace drawing in (or could it be... channeling?) Sidious' power.

Since as you said Mace explains that Vapaad allows him to use his darkness as a weapon of light, and the text explicitly says that he channels Sidious' power as well, the only interpretation viable is that he channels both his and Sidious' power and then uses both of them as a weapon of light.[/B]

Yeah it says "Channeling." You might be right.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Checkmate.

Damn and I'm usually so good at chess!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Problem is the passage specifically says that Sidious completes the Loop. Not that he started it.

Both Mace and Sidious have darkness flowing through them.

And yet, we know he does. After all Mace Windu is redirecting Palpatine's energy and there is no mention that Palpatine does such a thing with Mace's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah it says "Channeling." You might be right.

Damn and I'm usually so good at chess!