Originally posted by Cogito
Textbook PIS/CIS
It would be if he new he was about to get attacked, and instead of doing anything he stood there and let it happen, but there is nothing on panel that indicates that is the case. What we saw is MM getting a vague sense, informing his team, and then getting taken out via stealth ambush. There is no indication that he was expecting an attack and merely couldn't react fast enough to deal with it, that simply isn't what happened. What happened is he was standing around, sensed something, and was taken out before he identified what he sensed as a threat. That isn't a speed feat.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
He should, because he's done it before. Empathy, telepthay, and super senses like sight. Which is why it's hard for Batman (better stealth than Midnighter) hard to sneak up on MM.
So by this logic, he shouldn't have been able to even get close to MM. Did he speedblitz MM from beyond telepathic range? No, it was just a moment of vulnerability for MM that MNer took advantage of. Reboot or not, I'm baffled that anyone could think otherwise.
Well, ok, but you're not explaining away the issues I have. If it's "empathy, telepathy, and super senses" that make him hard to sneak up on (quoted from your last post) then it's a stealth feat. Otherwise what you're saying is, MNer attacked him so fast, MM couldn't find him telepathically. And cautiously assuming that MM can use telepathy over a span of miles, that means that, what, MNer attacked so fast that J'onn couldn't detect him over several miles?
Telepathy does not justify it as a speed feat, unless you're willing to say that MNer covered miles in milliseconds. Your logic for justifying it as a speed feat is nonsensical. The only rational explanation is that MM wasn't using his telepathy actively at the time and didn't sense MNer. In that scenario, you or I could've gotten a hit in on him (though not KO'd him obviously).
Also, "he's done it before" is an invalid argument for a couple reasons. One, reboot. Two, he probably had his tp scanning "on" in the situations you're mentioning, which he clearly didn't here.
Go ahead and disagree, that's part of debate. But if you're sticking to your earlier guns, you're wrong.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I think it's a combo of the 2. But I hope we learn more from the incident, because like I said, stealth doesn't always work on MM.Some posters on other boards agree it's a combo and MM might not be as powerful in the new DCU. Let's just wait and see.
Not my point at all. Obviously we have to wait and see for every DC character at this point. We know next to nothing. But you said it was a speed feat based on the premises that I just countered. A combo of the two, or wait and see, sounds like backing off from your earlier stance.
I'd still like to hear how it's a combo though. If you're blindfolded and I punch you in the back of the head after making next to no sound, is it a speed feat? That's basically what happened here. It's only a combo of stealth and MM being distracted.
Forthcoming issues may prove one or both of us wrong, but your current interpretation given the context is silly.
Originally posted by Digi
Not my point at all. Obviously we have to wait and see for every DC character at this point. We know next to nothing. But you said it was a speed feat based on the premises that I just countered. A combo of the two, or wait and see, sounds like backing off from your earlier stance.I'd still like to hear how it's a combo though. If you're blindfolded and I punch you in the back of the head after making next to no sound, is it a speed feat? That's basically what happened here. It's only a combo of stealth and MM being distracted.
If it was pure stealth, MM wouldn't have sensed him in the first place. He knew someone was there and I don't recall Midnighter's stealth feats. Have any?
Originally posted by Bentley
To me is just a Deathstroke-vs-Flash moment. Textbook example of PIS.
Nah, that was PIS because Flash was aware of the situation. This would be like if Slade tagged Flash while Flash was asleep. I only think it's a low durability showing for J'onn (or a high striking feat for MNer)...I don't think it says anything about either's speed.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
If it was pure stealth, MM wouldn't have sensed him in the first place. He knew someone was there and I don't recall Midnighter's stealth feats. Have any?
Quite a few, and a couple very impressive ones I can remember off the top of my head. Moot point though. Reboot. Why do you keep bringing up past feats?
And it can't be pure stealth? So if I sneak up on you, and you notice me when my fist is on its way toward your face, it's no longer a stealth feat because you noticed me before I attacked? That's what you're saying.
As srank pointed out "sensing something" isn't locating a person and an attack. MM didn't have the necessary information to react, vague sense or not.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Midnighter was obviously using speed as he ko'd MM, Jack, and the Projectionist in a matter of moments.
Changing your story again. We were discussing the attack on J'onn which was pure ambush. Not the flurry that downed all 3.
Yes, downing all 3 is a good speed feat. But neither of the other two have super speed. And if he caught J'onn unawares (he did) then it's only a moderate skill/speed feat.
Like if I was attacking 3 animals, 2 sloths and a tiger. I sneak up on the tiger and take him out without him being aware of me. At that point, is it really a speed feat?
Originally posted by Digi
Quite a few, and a couple very impressive ones I can remember off the top of my head. Moot point though. Reboot. Why do you keep bringing up past feats?And it can't be pure stealth? So if I sneak up on you, and you notice me when my fist is on its way toward your face, it's no longer a stealth feat because you noticed me before I attacked? That's what you're saying.
As srank pointed out "sensing something" isn't locating a person and an attack. MM didn't have the necessary information to react, vague sense or not.
I'd like to hear them. Especially someone in MM's league.
Originally posted by Digi
Changing your story again.
A valid story, though.
Originally posted by Digi
Like if I was attacking 3 animals, 2 sloths and a tiger. I sneak up on the tiger and take him out without him being aware of me. At that point, is it really a speed feat?
Horrible analogy. The tiger doesn't have lightspeed feats.
Originally posted by Digi
Changing your story again. We were discussing the attack on J'onn which was pure ambush. Not the flurry that downed all 3.Yes, downing all 3 is a good speed feat. But neither of the other two have super speed. And if he caught J'onn unawares (he did) then it's only a moderate skill/speed feat.
Like if I was attacking 3 animals, 2 sloths and a tiger. I sneak up on the tiger and take him out without him being aware of me. At that point, is it really a speed feat?
Obviously he needed to use speed to get to MM. You nor I wouldn't be able to do that, because we're not fast enough. Midnighter was.