Denton Van Zan (Reign of Fire) vs. John McClane

Originally posted by FrothByte
It's these kind of arguments that really hurt McClane's corner. Some of the other pro-McClane posters here have valid points. Yours however is ridiculous. Van Zan cannot fight with actual effectiveness? Telegraphs moves? Slow? Weak? What are you smoking?!

Van Zan delivered blocks and blows fast enough that Quinn couldn't react to them. No telegraphing there. Then when Quinn was too stunned to fight back properly, only then did Van Zan took take his time to really cock his blows. That's not because he was slow, that was because Quinn's blows weren't hurting him and he knew he could take his time.

Claiming that McClane is a better fighter than Van Zan is a decent argument and can be debated. Claiming that Van Zan doesn't know how to fight is flat out ridiculous.

Its this kind of refusal to stop fellating Van Zan that really shows up the Van Zan corner... He is ridiculously slow, deilvers slap force in his punches despite his "cocking" and because of how slow and posey his shots are, he couldn't inflict damage on Quinn.
his shots remained 'cocked' in mid flight and would have been very easy to see coming a mile off, leaving him open to counters, if he han't just sat on his opponents chest and arms, TOTALLY FAILING TO DAMAGE HIS OPPONENT still.... lol. Not a twitch muscle in sight, he wastes his breath on grunting posing noises, which'd be fine if he knew who to punch with speed and efficinecy, but clearly he doesn't as he failed to damage his opponent. Van Zan is an empty poser.

Seriously. Go watch Van Zan's fight, then watch DH5.
Note the following things: McClane hurting his opponents, the generated sound even of McClane's punches due to the force he generates, the fact that he might not be Bruce Lee but actually blocks shots coming in from faster and more effective guys than Van Zan... Speed kills.

YouTube video

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
No the film itself made the statement.
You must have missed the bit about the fate of Quinn's wife and kid etc

But you just want to premptively dismiss me as a fanboy becuase it saves thinking. Whatever.

Van Zan cannot fight, his technique for striking and defence is shite and McClane has demonstrated superior ability in defence, attack and durability....oh.....and never left an opponent 100% undamaged screaming "I'll kill ya... I'll kill ya" after 6 free shots and a headbutt...

McClane probably has superior punching power. And probably superior durability, although Van Zan isn't too bad there himself. But superior ability and technique? Utter BS. Go ahead, post a vid showing McClane easily blocking and dodging blows. Show proof of this supposed "superior" skill that you keep bragging about.

Van Zan is absolutely terrible by comparison.
You cannot generate that Mcclane level of power without excellent technique.
Hence his technique IS better than Van "ineffective through bad punch technique" Zan's.

Fight technique is not kata and ability to pose taichi meditation style.
We know McClane f***s people up, wins fights, (using his superior dirty tactics knoweledge and ingenuity to win when out grappled, granted) and has done so for 5 movies, (the last of which he mastered one shot KOs on)..

Now where is this demonstrated ability of Van Zan's that you are all being all wound up about..?
Cause all we can see/know of is his Reign of Fire 'feat' and that is no where near McClane levels. In fact its barely at local pub level.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Van Zan is absolutely terrible by comparison.
You cannot generate that Mcclane level of power without excellent technique.
Hence his technique IS better than Van "ineffective through bad punch technique" Zan's.

Fight technique is not kata and ability to pose taichi meditation style.
We know McClane f***s people up, wins fights, (using his superior dirty tactics knoweledge and ingenuity to win when out grappled, granted) and has done so for 5 movies, (the last of which he mastered one shot KOs on)..

Now where is this demonstrated ability of Van Zan's that you are all being all wound up about..?
Cause all we can see/know of is his Reign of Fire 'feat' and that is no where near McClane levels. In fact its barely at local pub level.

Proof dear boy, please provide proof of this superior ability. I'm not talking about katas here. Did you see Van Zan use any katas? But the ability to easily block and dodge hits are attributes of a skilled fighter, more so than powerful punches. Some people are born with heavy hands. In fact, most adult men are capable of knocking out another man as long as they're afforded a clean shot.

But the ability to easily duck, dodge and block? Not so easily learned. Van Zan had no problem evading or blocking Quinn. In fact he was so confident of his superiority that he found time to pause and strike poses. you want proof, go ahead and watch the fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpJOgXhBLaA

But please, show us proof of McClane's supposed superior fighting skill before you praise him further. From what I've seen, McClane is a very good brawler, and I mean that as a compliment. It works for him and he gets things done. But please don't invent some bullcrap claiming that McClane is some sort of incredibly skilled h2h fighter because he simply is not... unless you can provide proof that is.

It was hyperbole. Posing slowness and flash-for-the camaras loses against the holy trinity power, accuracy and speed.

I posted proof of his power/speed. Now watch the Karl fight in DH1 for good and basic yet effective blocking/countering. Even the most trivial of close encounters of the McClane kind vaporises Van Zan's best and only feat.

Thats all thats needed. 🙂

Oh so Van Zan fights so laughably because he is complacent? LOL
Well thats him f**ked against McClane then... huge supposition/excuse making attempt by you though..

I'm not wasting time in indulging your heavily strawmannic 'you said McClane is some Bruce Lee like picture of every fight technique in history' trip that you seem to be on. 'Cause thats not what Im saying. Ducking and diving, I agree..We saw nothing of that ilk from Van Zan either, incidentally...

Bottom line: McClane is much faster, much more hard hitting, and has unlimited damage soak and survived 5 DH movies...Van Zan loses.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ducking and diving, I agree..We saw nothing of that ilk from Van Zan either, incidentally...

Bottom line: McClane is much faster, much more hard hitting, and has unlimited damage soak and survived 5 DH movies...Van Zan loses.

Watch the vid again.

YouTube video

Van Zan easily blocks Quinn at 0:08. Then at 0:38 ducks around Quinn's punch. The key note here, is that he does it effortlessly. In the beginning of the fight, Van Zan is pretty fast when he wants to be. So you claiming McClane as "faster" doesn't really hold up. Oh, and no one except hardon fanboys will claim "unlimited damage soak" for any non-superpowered character.

Anyone can block a quinn slap.

Wrong. McClane IS faster.
His left hook is faster and more powerful than ANYTHING Van Zan dealt with or dished out.
He would have no choice but to eat it.

McClane is a guy is quick enough now to H2H wtf pwn Russian secret service ganstas who have machine guns on him.

A man who ducks and dives rockets by spinning his truck in 360 degree circles with procision enough to have the rocket sail (right next to the cab) over the back of the truck and harmlessly behind him.
He then tops the maneuver by spin-crashing rolling the vehicle like 11 times in a crash that would have killed anyone else and gets out pretty much unscathed.
Showing the levels of indestructability that he does in DH5, what is Van Zan, a man who would see Van Zan coming a mile off because of how slow and punches like a posey cissy so ineffective he is, gonna do to hurt him?!?? Nothing whatsoever.

Van Zan KO'd first shot.

BTW before accusing anyone of fanboyism, you should watch DH5.
Then I will graciously accept you apology for the inaccurate and needless slur.

/thread

FrothByte,

You should really watch DH5 before you continue on the "normal cop" angle. McClane stopped being normal in DH4, arguably DH3, but absolutely nothing normal about him anymore in DH5, the character was turned into a super-hero-like character.

and what was van zan turned into?

"Grunt! Hurrrrggghhhhhh! Grunt Grunt! *Pose* Grunt!"

How ironic that he couldn't punch for shit.

Originally posted by Robtard
FrothByte,

You should really watch DH5 before you continue on the "normal cop" angle. McClane stopped being normal in DH4, arguably DH3, but absolutely nothing normal about him anymore in DH5, the character was turned into a super-hero-like character.

👆 McClane is like a Saiyan he gets stronger and smarter every time he takes on threats.

His feats in DH5 are so much more advanced compared to his previous films.
His only weakness in DH5 was the fact that although he smelt bullshit from a mile away WAYYYYY ahead of when it happened, his son stubbornly put him in harms way. And he went with it.
Because he's training the next gen.

He punches harder now.
Sees trouble on a precognitive level.
And takes damage that should knock him down with little more than a laugh.

I see fights between thugs on the street like the one between Quinn and Zan all the time.
But I've never seen someone hit with a crunch like John did in DH5.
Orangutans hit with a thud sounding like that.
Feats are feats. Complain that it was just a sound effect all you want.
A thud like that puts a human down!

This would be a very quick brawl.

I understand he hits hard and has insane durability, but he lacks the technique to actually hit Zan. I'm not saying that if McClane got a free punch to Zan's face, he wouldn't KO him, but McClane won't get a free punch, and doesn't have the H2H skill to land a punch. That's why he loses here.

I am willing to say that McClane could possibly win if he rope-a-dopes Van, letting Van beat on him until he exhausts and then KOs him, but that's the only way he's going to win. There's no way in hell he's going to outmaneuver Van in a fistfight.

i dont understand your insistance that mcclane couldnt even touch van zan. quinn got shots in at him. you're making him out to be some sort of phantom ninja that cannot be followed by eye nor hand.

You misunderstanding me entirely. I'm not saying Van Zan is untouchable. I'm saying McClane is untouching. I'm not saying Zan is Jason Bourne, but he definitely has shown better fighting technique than McClane ever has in any of his fights.

Originally posted by Lestov16
I understand he hits hard and has insane durability, but he lacks the technique to actually hit Zan. I'm not saying that if McClane got a free punch to Zan's face, he wouldn't KO him, but McClane won't get a free punch, and doesn't have the H2H skill to land a punch. That's why he loses here.

I am willing to say that McClane could possibly win if he rope-a-dopes Van, letting Van beat on him until he exhausts and then KOs him, but that's the only way he's going to win. There's no way in hell he's going to outmaneuver Van in a fistfight.

I always remember the scene in DH With a Vengeance where McClane is standing in an elevator with armed men ready to kill him on a seconds whim.

He outmaneuvers them locking arms and pushing guns out of harms way and kills all of them in a short period of time.
If McClane can handle a tight situation like that he can get a grip on Zan.

Then the punches lay in. Zan goes down flat.

I don't see Zan having such a good chance in that elevator.

"McClane won't hit Van Zan" is nothing more than more Van Zan wanking coupled with McClane bashing.

McClane only made it out of that elevator because he's a good shot, which is irrelevant to the topic at hand. It's not like he KOed everyone in the elevator. I'm sure Zan could outmaneuver the guys in the elevator like McClane did. He'd probably get shot to shit, since he's not a expert gunfighter like McClane, but he could definitely do the lock arms thing just fine.

Originally posted by Robtard
"McClane won't hit Van Zan" is nothing more than more Van Zan wanking coupled with McClane bashing.

Pretty much.

It's trolling now in all honesty. McClane has survived enclosed encounters against trained operatives before. Yet apparently he can't tangle with the "excellence" that was the fight scene between Quinn and Zan???

Originally posted by Robtard
"McClane won't hit Van Zan" is complete and utter truth backed by screenfeats

Fixed.

Originally posted by Lestov16
McClane only made it out of that elevator because he's a good shot, which is irrelevant to the topic at hand. It's not like he KOed everyone in the elevator. I'm sure Zan could outmaneuver the guys in the elevator like McClane did. He'd probably get shot to shit, since he's not a expert gunfighter like McClane, but he could definitely do the lock arms thing just fine.

You missed my point!

Your argument is that McClane wont be able to lock arms and hit Zan.
And your reply to my argument is that Zan could lock arms with the men in the elevator in DH3 as well???

Wrong!

John and Zan will grapple and punch each other in the process.
John's punches will demolish Zan once a grapple is made if not beforehand.
Just accept it.