Celestials Vs Galactus Engine

Just the way I remember the issue... But
it says the abstracts are in retreat
Aegis or tenebrous was destroyed by tentacles from what could have been the many angled ones...
Then later shows galactus faced of solely against the engine

I mean it could have been
Galactus stood alone
Galactus AND the others were forced back losing their position at the frontlines.
Galactus stood alone cause everyone else was destroyed.

It isn't clear so I'm not 100% which way to take it myself. I think everyones answers so far seem to be possible

Aegis was destroyed

Could've been an M-Body who knows

Originally posted by Cogito
Regardless of how much math you want to do, it has yet to be proven or even likely implied that the rest of the Celestials died or ran away 😬

Originally posted by Cogito
And yet several were shown still there after that was said.

There are literally thousands of possible examples of a specific character (or characters) being singled out on a panel when they are known to be part of a group. I showed one such example a couple pages back.

Actually, Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Karnak, and Medusa all but said that Galactus is the only one left. So yes, it was heavily implied that Galactus was alone. You're relying too much on pure visual depiction and not giving more weight to the actual story development.

Silver Surfer: "We have reached a PIVOTAL juncture...if the Devourer of Worlds cannot vanquish the obscene Galactus Engine, we will quickly follow my master to his doom." [emphasis not mine]

[Beta Ray Bill does not like the Surfer's "defeatist tone"]

Silver Surfer: "It is no tone, Beta Ray Bill. It is a logical ASSESSMENT of our situation." [emphasis not mine]

[Gladiator does not want Silver Surfer's fatalistic assessment to feed through to the rest of the allied forces. He asks Karnak about any strategic options.]

Karnak: "I suggest we bring the remainder of the Shi'ar and Kree fleets around in support of Galactus, maejestor." [emphasis mine]

[Karnak goes on to say they need to bring Blastaar's forces in to act as rearguard to protect the remainder of the Kree and Shi'ar fleets from conventional Cancerverse forces while the K+S fleets concentrate on supporting Galactus against the Engine. Medusa says Blastaar is gone.]

Medusa: "Blastaar has already fled the line. We're on our OWN. Spartoi and Xaanthian battle groups will cover our backs. I have instructed the Nova Corps to support Galactus directly."

At this point in ttime, the Nova Corps consists of little more than 1 ship and a handful of sub-herald Nova force users, almost all of whom are rookies.

I ask you, what do these lines of dialog imply? Where, in any of the dialog, does it imply that the Celestials are still around? Where?

Why does Medusa throw even the kitchen sink into the battle if you still have Arishem standing "off-panel" somewhere?

The ONLY possible grounds you could argue that the Celestials are still present is their absence from the art.

I can easily counter that their absence from the art is quite telling and arguably supports my position more than otherwise.

Then there is the trump card: Silver Surfer is our qualified "narrator" for the battle. This was established back in issue 2 when Quasar (who has cosmic awareness) thought that the GE and the cosmic beings were in some stationary standoff. Surfer told them the battle was already joined and beyond their ken; the only thing they would perceive was the aftermath.

This very same qualified character then makes the statements in issue 6 that if Galactus doesn't prevail, then all is lost. He doesn't say "Galactus and the Celestials," Karnak doesn't say "support Galactus and the Celestials", Meduas doesn't say "I have instructed the Nova Corps to support Galactus and the Celestials directly"

And the Surfer sure as hell wouldn't say

"We have reached a PIVOTAL juncture...if the Devourer of Worlds cannot vanquish the obscene Galactus Engine, we will quickly follow my master to his doom."

"Pivotal" (as well as "follow"😉 is actually emphasized in bold italics in the actual comic. Why is the battle at a pivotal point? Why is it pivotal if Galactus fails? In other words, do you still believe, that at that specific moment, in that specific scan, the battle is as pivotal and desperate as SS, Karnak, Gladiator, and Medusa make it all seem if even 1 Celestial was still standing around "off panel?"

What does all that imply?

Originally posted by rotiart
Just the way I remember the issue... But
it says the abstracts are in retreat
Aegis or tenebrous was destroyed by tentacles from what could have been the many angled ones...
Then later shows galactus faced of solely against the engine

I mean it could have been
Galactus stood alone
Galactus AND the others were forced back losing their position at the frontlines.
Galactus stood alone cause everyone else was destroyed.

It isn't clear so I'm not 100% which way to take it myself. I think everyones answers so far seem to be possible

The Galactus Engine destroyed Aegis, there's no question about that. We know this because the regular Cancerverse forces (the tentacle monsters, etc.) were already battling the Shi'ar/Kree/Spartoi etc. etc. fleets.

In issue 1, we are told that the enemy was "responding to the arrival" of the abstracts (i.e., the arrival of Galactus, the Proemial Gods, and the Celestials to the battle). Their response came in the form of the Galactus Engine. Meaning, Galactus et al gave Medusa and Gladiator an advantage in the battle. The Cancerverse responded in kind. Next issue, Quasar thinks there's a standoff and nothing's happening. SS says that's not true, the battle is already joined and all we'll see are the aftereffects of the conflict. The very next panel, Aegis is destroyed. It's pretty clear that the GE did that...the writers don't need to spell it out for us ("The Galactus Engine has destroyed 1 of the abstracts!!!"😉

These are the facts:

1. The art shows 20+ guys at the onset of the battle. Galactus, Tenebrous, Aegis (who was destroyed by the GE), and around 19 Celestials. Story dialogue tells us the battle between the GE and the cosmic entities is already joined and the destructive aftereffects are shown (Aegis being completed obliterated)

2. Next, the art shows 5 facing off against the Engine. The story tells us that "our" side is losing the battle, and the abstracts are in retreat. Obviously, that means the GE is either forcing some guys to flee (like blastaar) or has destroyed Tenebrous/x number of Celestials. Or if you want, you could assume that some entities didn't flee, but they didn't continue the fight either. Effectively becoming a Watcher for this particular battle. Whatever you want to assume.

3. Next the art shows Galactus and the Galactus Engine. I.e., the art has continuously grown smaller and smaller and more localized with respect to scope of battle from issue 2 to issue 6.

The story on the other hand, compliments the art very well. I'm not going to re-paste the dialog again.

The main contention is that there's an argument from people that Galactus couldn't possibly be standing alone. My challenge is, where do you reach that conclusion? What in the story lends credence and logic to that argument? Or are they just arguing that because the Celestias weren't drawn in? If it's the latter, that's an extremely weak position and is easily deconstructed.

Originally posted by guy222
Aegis was destroyed

Could've been an M-Body who knows

DnA gave the answer of something along the lines of "the living universe created them. They were destroyed, but the universe needed them again, so they were resurrected."

"Living universe" was the exact term used in annihilation: heralds of Galactus. Whether we're supposed to take that metaphorically/prosaically, or literally (Eternity made them?), is anyone's guess.

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
Actually, Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Karnak, and Medusa all but said that Galactus is the only one left. So yes, it was heavily implied that Galactus was alone. You're relying too much on pure visual depiction and not giving more weight to the actual story development.

Silver Surfer: "We have reached a [b]PIVOTAL juncture...if the Devourer of Worlds cannot vanquish the obscene Galactus Engine, we will quickly follow my master to his doom." [emphasis not mine]

[Beta Ray Bill does not like the Surfer's "defeatist tone"]

Silver Surfer: "It is no tone, Beta Ray Bill. It is a logical ASSESSMENT of our situation." [emphasis not mine]

[Gladiator does not want Silver Surfer's fatalistic assessment to feed through to the rest of the allied forces. He asks Karnak about any strategic options.]

Karnak: "I suggest we bring the remainder of the Shi'ar and Kree fleets around in support of Galactus, maejestor." [emphasis mine]

[Karnak goes on to say they need to bring Blastaar's forces in to act as rearguard to protect the remainder of the Kree and Shi'ar fleets from conventional Cancerverse forces while the K+S fleets concentrate on supporting Galactus against the Engine. Medusa says Blastaar is gone.]

Medusa: "Blastaar has already fled the line. We're on our OWN. Spartoi and Xaanthian battle groups will cover our backs. I have instructed the Nova Corps to support Galactus directly."

At this point in ttime, the Nova Corps consists of little more than 1 ship and a handful of sub-herald Nova force users, almost all of whom are rookies.

I ask you, what do these lines of dialog imply? Where, in any of the dialog, does it imply that the Celestials are still around? Where?

Why does Medusa throw even the kitchen sink into the battle if you still have Arishem standing "off-panel" somewhere?

The ONLY possible grounds you could argue that the Celestials are still present is their absence from the art.

I can easily counter that their absence from the art is quite telling and arguably supports my position more than otherwise.

Then there is the trump card: Silver Surfer is our qualified "narrator" for the battle. This was established back in issue 2 when Quasar (who has cosmic awareness) thought that the GE and the cosmic beings were in some stationary standoff. Surfer told them the battle was already joined and beyond their ken; the only thing they would perceive was the aftermath.

This very same qualified character then makes the statements in issue 6 that if Galactus doesn't prevail, then all is lost. He doesn't say "Galactus and the Celestials," Karnak doesn't say "support Galactus and the Celestials", Meduas doesn't say "I have instructed the Nova Corps to support Galactus and the Celestials directly"

And the Surfer sure as hell wouldn't say

"We have reached a PIVOTAL juncture...if the Devourer of Worlds cannot vanquish the obscene Galactus Engine, we will quickly follow my master to his doom."

"Pivotal" (as well as "follow"😉 is actually emphasized in bold italics in the actual comic. Why is the battle at a pivotal point? Why is it pivotal if Galactus fails? In other words, do you still believe, that at that specific moment, in that specific scan, the battle is as pivotal and desperate as SS, Karnak, Gladiator, and Medusa make it all seem if even 1 Celestial was still standing around "off panel?"

What does all that imply? [/B]

Naturally Surfer is going to talk about Galactus, he's his boss. And he probably knows that ultimately Galactus would be the last to fall (if he wasn't already the last one).

Every other reference could easily be due to Galactus being the primary cosmic with whom readers can identify and recognize.

Again, I'm not disputing the possibility of Galactus being the last man standing. I just don't think it's the only possible conclusion to be reached here.

Power Cosmic, wouldn't it just be easier to post scans?

Originally posted by Cogito
Naturally Surfer is going to talk about Galactus, he's his boss. And he probably knows that ultimately Galactus would be the last to fall (if he wasn't already the last one).

Every other reference could easily be due to Galactus being the primary cosmic with whom readers can identify and recognize.

Again, I'm not disputing the possibility of Galactus being the last man standing. I just don't think it's the only possible conclusion to be reached here.

Yes, SS is our qualified narrator, as I've been saying. He also made a clear point to say (upon arrival to the battle scene and Nova/Quasar and the others asking him if they are joining them) "I am merely a herald. Forces have been aligned." Meaning, he knows he's insignificant compared to the assembled might of Galactus, the Proemial Gods, and the Celestials (shown next panel). He goes from this to focusing on Galactus alone in issue 6. Now, call it what you will, but my point is that SS didn't focus on Galactus alone when the whole group arrived. He doesn't even mention Galactus' name for the majority of the battle, simply saying "they" in reference to the cosmic entities. In issue 6 every other phrase contains "my master" or some variant. There's a message being communicated there.

Anyway, no, it's not the only possible conclusion. Never said that. It is, however, the only one supported by the art and panel statements. Earlier it was contended that the "logical" conclusion was that Galactus was not alone. I didn't see any logic in that since none of it was supported by the comic.

And in a forum/fantasy setting, we go off of feats, fights, logic, and sound reasoning.

Now, I agree--in a "real world" context--every other reference pertaining to Galactus is due to him being the primary recognizable character to the reader. However, that means it's writers' intent to portray Galactus as the last one combating the Engine. Or if other parties don't want to believe Galactus was the last one present, then a subtle change to my sentence satisfied that: Of those Cosmic entities that remained, Galactus was the only one actually combating the Engine. Either way, writers' intent means canon. Canon means feats, and feats mean what we use in forum battles.

Not supposition, not unsubstantiated theories, not personal assumptions. Feats, fights, logic supported by the story.

The whole issue is that if you are going to make assumptions and arguments, fine, but illustrate where the comic supports those assumptions. Writers' intent was to have Galactus standing alone. I personally asked the writers face-to-face what would happen to Galactus before issue 6 came out. They told me he is the last one standing out of the entire group. Regardless of what they told me, it just underscores what was meant to be the message: G was the last one left.

I'm not saying you (not you personally) can't wonder if Exitar was standing off to the side. I'm saying you can't use that nebulous, unsupported position in a forum battle, where the contrary (Exitar/other Celestials weren't present at the final battle) is more likely, when taking the dialog and story progression.

Originally posted by Cogito
Naturally Surfer is going to talk about Galactus, he's his boss. And he probably knows that ultimately Galactus would be the last to fall (if he wasn't already the last one).

Every other reference could easily be due to Galactus being the primary cosmic with whom readers can identify and recognize.

Again, I'm not disputing the possibility of Galactus being the last man standing. I just don't think it's the only possible conclusion to be reached here.

Well... you're making some progress

@power cosmic I understand your point but
Doesn't it also say right behind the engine is a force more powerful?
And also doesn't the whole thing say that the battle is taking place in a way not even those like surfer could perceive?

And the only way we know it's even taken place (because everyone is looking like they are standing still is because aegis gets taken apart by tentacles...

I understand where you are coming from.... But I believe the whole confrontation is left a little vague

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well... you're making some progress

If you read my posts I haven't changed my stance one bit.

Ummmm... besides missing key parts of the story that I said were true.. and validated the perspective of me and others... sure...

My opinion throughout has been that there are indications supporting both arguments but no proof for either.

Originally posted by rotiart
@power cosmic I understand your point but
Doesn't it also say right behind the engine is a force more powerful?
And also doesn't the whole thing say that the battle is taking place in a way not even those like surfer could perceive?

And the only way we know it's even taken place (because everyone is looking like they are standing still is because aegis gets taken apart by tentacles...

I understand where you are coming from.... But I believe the whole confrontation is left a little vague

I really don't see what you're getting at here...Surfer's perception>>>>everyone else present. It's Surfer who said the battle was beyond their ken, not the narration or whatever...the fact that he's able to glean what's going on proves that he knows more than anyone else present what he's talking about. Guys who are able to instantly assess the situation like Quasar (with his cosmic awareness) and Nova (with the worldmind) didn't understand what was happening.

Surfer is our informant of what's happening. Aegis gets taken down by the Engine, Medusa says the entities are fleeing (again, "normal" people are able to see the after effects, i.e., flight), and then the very same informant says if the Galactus Engine destroys Galactus, the battle is lost. I really don't see how it can be vague. This very same argument would apply if someone like Odin were the last guy standing. Everyone else fled or was destroyed.

And honestly to think that other parties are present off panel is wishful thinking. It's clearly not what the writers intended, otherwise they would have shown them, or mentioned something if they didn't want to depict it visually. Again, what makes it vague? You have multiple characters essentially all saying the same exact thing: if Galactus is defeated, the whole thing is over. No mention of the Celestials. At all.

Originally posted by Cogito
My opinion throughout has been that there are indications supporting both arguments but no proof for either.

What are the indications? What supports that the Celestials are there with Galactus?

Honestly,I think Galactus is the last cosmic/abstract still standing.And some people just don`t like that fact and rationalize their way around it.(yes i know it`s an old thread but the whole post was very interesting too me.)

Weren't the celestial flying shitless or outright dying during the confrontation with the GE?

Originally posted by Reflassshh
Weren't the celestial flying shitless or outright dying during the confrontation with the GE?