Defenders vs. Thor Corps

Originally posted by Sundipped
Like I said earlier, we can sit here and cherrypick feats all day. Steve has more strong showings than bad 1's. Why wouldn't he put on a strong show vs. Thor? He does it more often than not. A simple hammer toss will fail. You ignore his shields best showings and say not only will the shield shatter but it would also ko him?? shock

not cherry-picking at all. showing what level he most commonly and without pis operates at. i gonna steal this from bran. i've taken liberties with his text, but i think he'll forgive me:

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Speaking of shields, you must have forgot about Thanos' when you spouted off all these random powers. But I digress, Strange's shields...
Ya, THOR breaks them, why not? Strange's indestrucible shields. Not only does Strange usually only cast one shield at a time, but if that shield is being pounded on badly, he's been said to not be able to reinforce it. Not only that, but the guy's cardio is terrible. You think hiding behind a shield unable to do nothing but concentrate on his shield is going to do anything to a couple thors? Even if Thor couldn't break it, it would severely tax Strange. or what couldn't thor simply ABSORB it? mjolnir can and has absorbed a lot more. anyway, this isn't cherry-picking. there are a lot of examples here showing that thor--espically if he amped his hammer by absorbing a spell or amped it with lightning.

Dormammu amped Ghost Rider smashes through his sanctum (as you know, or should know, is heavily shielded) and his go to shield:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/ghostriderv103005.jpg

Umar empowered Clea smashes through his shield:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/MarvelTeam-Up077-13.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/MarvelTeam-Up077-14.jpg

Azrael smashes through his rarely used backed up shield (Shield of Seraphim + Wand of Watoomb):
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster4015.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster4016.jpg

A minor mystic with the sword of Kamuu cuts through every shield Strange puts up to defend his Sanctum:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrange031-05.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrange031-06.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrange031-07-1.jpg

Defenses breached, mist meet face:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster3414.jpg

Here Strange admits that he can't back up his shield with continued pounding, and then it breaks:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster3710.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster3711.jpg

Although admittedly, that is contradicted by an earlier issue, although the concept is the same. He doesn't have much time to do anything (not that it would matter, because Thanos would shatter the shield of Seraphim in one shot):
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrange029-14.jpg

Strange's shield blown up by two mystics:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster3814.jpg

Strange's shield destroyed by Absorbing Man inside Hulk's mind:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Defenders083-11.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Defenders083-12.jpg

Strange admitting that he doesn't have the best defense against science, and then his shield gets destroyed, and he gets knocked out (Thanos is kind of sciencey, isn't he?):
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster5307.jpg

Strange's cardio getting him taxed from one spell:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster5514.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster5515.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster5516.jpg

Uh dunno, his shield wouldn't serve him much purpose. Even if he backed it up, I have no doubt THOR or a couple thors could smash through it quickly (insert scans of him crushing surfer's shields, blasting and chasing off Galactus, etc....).

This is the guy who's been coldcocked a few times by normal out cold. A guy who's said that putting out a fire in a building would tax him too much to try. A guy who's been drugged, gassed, suffocated, and has been threatened by ****ing water more than once. This is the guy a GROUP of thors has no chance against? Really? call me skeptical.

*cough sonics*
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Defenders093-16.jpg

For this insanity, I feel the need to post this as well.
Werewold possessed Strange vs Spider-Man (I'd post pure werewolf, but this one actually casts spells):
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/MarvelTeamUp_080p18.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/MarvelTeamUp_080p19.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/MarvelTeamUp_080p21.jpg

Everything I've post was before his books and artifacts were destroyed (which seemingly got ignored anyway), so ya, this is as Classic as you can get. This is Classicest Classic Strange.
That should do it.

I like both but this is no hype. These are facts. Illustrated on panel.

not really. the lt/ib is a good feat, but ib wasn't really doing much and wasn't out to kill strange at all. in an earlier meeting ib could have killed strange with just a 'fraction' of his power and strange only chased him off by calling on order and chaos. so which scene is more realistic? ib (STILL not really trying to harm strange) proves able to easily overpower strange with just his own power, or an lt amped ib not killing him instantly?

I was responding to you saying Steve didn't do anything but he did. Just the simple fact that he can call on the big boys makes him a threat to this entire team.

like whom?

As you can see he was already amped + absorbed more energy from combat as stated on panel. So much that he's involuntarily emmiting energy in intense bursts.

thor can do the same thing.

No prep involved when he punked Death. Death was outraged with Steven after trading attacks.
"You/Galactus/even accursed Eternity are not worth the supreme effort it would take."

a good feat, as i said earlier. but we don't really kow how powerful that avatar was. and he did no lasting damage at all, just shattered an m-body. 😬 hurling that magical energy at a thor with a mjolnor might not end that well though....

No prep he raped Big G with tp.

i'd be more impressed if g wasn't severely weakened. the avengers had nearly killed him already. thor has done just as bad to galactus.

I never said Steve killed the abstracts. 😕
You keep saying team Thor for the majority but how? And please don't say Thor hits Steven with Mjlnor.

well, again, why not? especially if there were MULTIPLE hammer throws. less than the hammer has taxed and broken his shields. or thor could absorb them like he could absorb strange's bolts or spells.

for all his 'uber feats' really he has breifly stalemated ib after having been shown to be far below him on another occasion, hurt a weak galactus, beat a death m-body temorarily. in contrast he has been shown to be nothing to mephisto, dormammu a couple times, satanish, cyttorak, the vishanti, he's been ko'd by hulk, namor, juggs, magneto, hell, nebula with a RAY GUN! and there are others i've not named. these aren't cherry-picked feats. its weird how people love to bring up a couple of his feats and say he is the awesomest!!!1! but if you look at his whole career those 'uber feats' are few and far between and often need context to be seen accurately. in general, strange is powerful but not as powerful as forum-speak would lead everyone to believe. 😬

the corps still wins a solid majority imo.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Here's where it's stated he destroy galaxies if he returned to Earth after fighting Shuma. He's just pulsating with energy: Energy he stole from 1 of Shumas minions (no prep)/ the dimension + Shuma's own.

👆

cool feat, but i don't really think it will mean anything in this or most battles.

Originally posted by leonidas
not cherry-picking at all. showing what level he most commonly and without pis operates at. i gonna steal this from bran. i've taken liberties with his text, but i think he'll forgive me:

Given what he has done, how can all that not attributed to PIS. Meaning Strange was stupidly depowered for the sake of the plot. There's no plot in forum battles. I debate with PIS off. I gave you Steve at his finest as should be for this battle. No reason at all to even consider a low showing in this setting. Only high ones. Therefore picking feats means nothing.

not really. the lt/ib is a good feat, but ib wasn't really doing much and wasn't out to kill strange at all. in an earlier meeting ib could have killed strange with just a 'fraction' of his power and strange only chased him off by calling on order and chaos. so which scene is more realistic? ib (STILL not really trying to harm strange) proves able to easily overpower strange with just his own power, or an lt amped ib not killing him instantly?

LT backed him by not permitting Steve to call Master Order Lord Chaos + Steve commented that IB's strength was increased by his mere presence. Maybe IB was'nt trying but being able to stalemate him in any aspect is a feat in itself. IB commended him by saying Steven is formidable in the first time around. These are no fluke encounters.

like whom?

You can't be serious? All this time you've been here at KMC, giving props out to lone pig, and taking time to cherrypick Strange's low showings, and you act like you don't know the entities he envoke's? I'll give you a hint. You mentioned their names later on at the bottom of your post.

thor can do the same thing.

Ok. Show me a scan where it's stated classic Thor contained enough power to destroy galaxies.

a good feat, as i said earlier. but we don't really kow how powerful that avatar was. and he did no lasting damage at all, just shattered an m-body. 😬 hurling that magical energy at a thor with a mjolnor might not end that well though....

M-bodies are really the essence of the actual entity itself. Dormammu created the universe in his image utilizing a Eternity M-body. Do you realize how much power was in that blast? He called upon all three members of the Vishanti for that attack which momentarily put death down. Explain again how Thor would not be affected by this.

i'd be more impressed if g wasn't severely weakened. the avengers had nearly killed him already. thor has done just as bad to galactus.

It was a tp attack. Show me evidence of Thor withstanding tp capable of besting a mind gem weilder.

well, again, why not? especially if there were MULTIPLE hammer throws. less than the hammer has taxed and broken his shields. or thor could absorb them like he could absorb strange's bolts or spells.

There will be no multiple hammer throws. He'll be lucky to even have the hammer. Strange has shown the ability to take it.

for all his 'uber feats' really he has breifly stalemated ib after having been shown to be far below him on another occasion, hurt a weak galactus, beat a death m-body temorarily. in contrast he has been shown to be nothing to mephisto, dormammu a couple times, satanish, cyttorak, the vishanti, he's been ko'd by hulk, namor, juggs, magneto, hell, nebula with a RAY GUN! and there are others i've not named. these aren't cherry-picked feats. its weird how people love to bring up a couple of his feats and say he is the awesomest!!!1! but if you look at his whole career those 'uber feats' are few and far between and often need context to be seen accurately. in general, strange is powerful but not as powerful as forum-speak would lead everyone to believe. 😬

the corps still wins a solid majority imo.

See first response up top.

Thor absorbed the energies of the Null Bomb and has made shields capable of preventing 1/5 of the universe from being destroyed.

Also, does Strange have any other instances of taking Mjolnir away from Thor outside of his prep feat you showed earlier?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thor absorbed the energies of the Null Bomb and has made shields capable of preventing 1/5 of the universe from being destroyed.

Also, does Strange have any other instances of taking Mjolnir away from Thor outside of his prep feat you showed earlier?

Not that I know of.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Not that I know of.

Then don't you think it's kinda...well, a stretch to argue that Strange is going to wrest control from Mjolnir from Thor (or anyone else) mid-fight if his only feat in which he did so involved prep time he's not getting here?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Then don't you think it's kinda...well, a stretch to argue that Strange is going to wrest control from Mjolnir from Thor (or anyone else) mid-fight if his only feat in which he did so involved prep time he's not getting here?

In a one on one battle I'd be less likely to acknowledge it but this is a team battle. Remember I posted a scan earlier showing teamwork and it involved Steve completing a spell.

Originally posted by Sundipped
In a one on one battle I'd be less likely to acknowledge it but this is a team battle. Remember I posted a scan earlier showing teamwork and it involved Steve completing a spell.

Yes, but teamwork is a two-way street.

I find Strange disarming any of the Thor Corps with any sort of ease is out of the question, to be honest.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yes, but teamwork is a two-way street.

I find Strange disarming any of the Thor Corps with any sort of ease is out of the question, to be honest.

I say he can get at least one of em if he tried the spell. But that's my opinion.

Originally posted by Sundipped
I say he can get at least one of em if he tried the spell. But that's my opinion.

jake already mentioned the celestial bomb so no need to bring it up. part of why i give defenders a couple wins is the tgp edge. i don't see it working all the time--strange doesn't use offensive tp all that often and if he does he can't do anything else and would be open to the others. but it COULD be an issue.

how you want to attribute all those scenes as pis i have no idea. it's EASIER to call his stalemating ib PIS given the multitudes of his other showings. strange RARELY takes down anyone big without pis or prep. it's not like he walks up to dormammu or satanish or mephisto or thanos and simply beats them with his own power. he's been matched and beaten by countless lesser beings in 1on1 situations. you can't just look at high feats, especially when most have extenuating circumstances surrounding them. fact is his shields can and have been broken many times, he can and as been ko'd by characters well below thor. his one-time feat of taking thor's hammer may account for one of the couple wins i give them, but there are 4 other hammers as well.

we'll never agree on strange because you want to view him in the light of ONLY his very highest feats. fact is, those feats are rare and are mitigated by his countless other, lesser feats.

Originally posted by leonidas
jake already mentioned the celestial bomb so no need to bring it up. part of why i give defenders a couple wins is the tgp edge. i don't see it working all the time--strange doesn't use offensive tp all that often and if he does he can't do anything else and would be open to the others. but it COULD be an issue.

how you want to attribute all those scenes as pis i have no idea. it's EASIER to call his stalemating ib PIS given the multitudes of his other showings. strange RARELY takes down anyone big without pis or prep. it's not like he walks up to dormammu or satanish or mephisto or thanos and simply beats them with his own power. he's been matched and beaten by countless lesser beings in 1on1 situations. you can't just look at high feats, especially when most have extenuating circumstances surrounding them. fact is his shields can and have been broken many times, he can and as been ko'd by characters well below thor. his one-time feat of taking thor's hammer may account for one of the couple wins i give them, but there are 4 other hammers as well.

we'll never agree on strange because you want to view him in the light of ONLY his very highest feats. fact is, those feats are rare and are mitigated by his countless other, lesser feats.

If we take into account all showings (low and high) for all characters then it's going to turn into a "it could go either way" outcome for either side. What good is a debate if everything comes out evenly? See, since Hulk's on this team I could say that this would happen to at least one of the hammers:

Strange has not only taken the hammer, but he repaired it as well by taking the actual Odinforce from Thor and bonding it to Mjolnir demonstrating mystical energy manipulation that would be detrimental if used against Thor.

We all know what Surfer is capable of. A confrontation between the Thor corps and this Defenders team would be hazardous to team Asgard. Defenders win no less than 7/10.

Originally posted by Sundipped

Strange has not only taken the hammer, but he repaired it as well by taking the actual Odinforce from Thor and bonding it to Mjolnir demonstrating mystical energy manipulation that would be detrimental if used against Thor.

He required Thor to willingly bequeath the Odin Force over to enable Strange to repair it. It wasn't like Strange just hijacked the OF from Thor. Hell, he required the Skyfathers of multiple pantheons to give him an amulet to do that to King Thor.

Originally posted by Sundipped
If we take into account all showings (low and high) for all characters then it's going to turn into a "it could go either way" outcome for either side. What good is a debate if everything comes out evenly? See, since Hulk's on this team I could say that this would happen to at least one of the hammers:

Strange has not only taken the hammer, but he repaired it as well by taking the actual Odinforce from Thor and bonding it to Mjolnir demonstrating mystical energy manipulation that would be detrimental if used against Thor.

We all know what Surfer is capable of. A confrontation between the Thor corps and this Defenders team would be hazardous to team Asgard. Defenders win no less than 7/10.

So Hulk crushed Thor hammer? Now that's insane.

Originally posted by carver9
So Hulk crushed Thor hammer? Now that's insane.

C'mon, now, Carver. Think.

facepalm

There was a specific reason why I didn't bother giving a rebuttal to that "Hulk breaking Mjolnir scan".

Originally posted by Sundipped
If we take into account all showings (low and high) for all characters then it's going to turn into a "it could go either way" outcome for either side. What good is a debate if everything comes out evenly? See, since Hulk's on this team I could say that this would happen to at least one of the hammers:

😐

Strange has not only taken the hammer, but he repaired it as well by taking the actual Odinforce from Thor and bonding it to Mjolnir demonstrating mystical energy manipulation that would be detrimental if used against Thor.

We all know what Surfer is capable of. A confrontation between the Thor corps and this Defenders team would be hazardous to team Asgard. Defenders win no less than 7/10. [/B]

jake addressed this already. and as i said, it IS possible strange might be able to whip up something weird to take a hammer or 2. that's why i give them a couple wins.

if we don't take into account the history and overall performance of a character and context, then all we're arguing is highest achieved powerset and that is NOT an accurate indicator in the least. if we do that, then i say the corps engage the defenders, then thor kills ss with a godblast, absorbed the souls of hulk and namor or uses his few transmutation feats to eliminate them instantly. or maybe he invokes warrior madness and wrecks them all.

you want to use the highest feats for strange, use his once in a history feats, the outlier feats and ignore his clearly and OFT displayed weaknesses and vulnerabilities--i haven't used ANY of thor's highest feats to explain away a win. when someone talks of strange though, they ALWAYS cite his couple TOP feats as though that is how he is consistently portrayed when the weight of history indicates that is certainly NOT the case. looking at how they are generally portrayed, allowing for the odd exotic ability from both, i see the corps taking this for good majority. they have GREAT answers for ss's powerset AND strange's, while namor and hulk are pretty much useless which also give a major numbers advantage not too long into the fight. but we'll simply not agree i suppose.

Hulk crushing Mjolnir with one hand...

😆

Originally posted by leonidas
😐
jake addressed this already. and as i said, it IS possible strange might be able to whip up something weird to take a hammer or 2. that's why i give them a couple wins.

Nah. They'll get more than a couple of wins. I brought up Strange repairing the hammer to indicate the fact that Steve has almost, if not as much knowledge of the powers of Mjolnir which would be an advantage.

if we don't take into account the history and overall performance of a character and context, then all we're arguing is highest achieved powerset and that is NOT an accurate indicator in the least.

Why is it not accurate? If we use any and every shoing then what conclusion are we going to come to? Character A is up and down showings wise but since he had a bad showing, character B can beat him and vice versa. What would be the use of debating then?

if we do that, then i say the corps engage the defenders, then thor kills ss with a godblast, absorbed the souls of hulk and namor or uses his few transmutation feats to eliminate them instantly. or maybe he invokes warrior madness and wrecks them all.

Easier said than done. Show me evidence of Thor landing a GB on someone with the caliber speed of Surfer. Warrior madness will get Thor bfr'ed instantly.

you want to use the highest feats for strange, use his once in a history feats, the outlier feats and ignore his clearly and OFT displayed weaknesses and vulnerabilities--i haven't used ANY of thor's highest feats to explain away a win. when someone talks of strange though, they ALWAYS cite his couple TOP feats as though that is how he is consistently portrayed when the weight of history indicates that is certainly NOT the case. looking at how they are generally portrayed, allowing for the odd exotic ability from both, i see the corps taking this for good majority.

Why not use the high feats for Strange? Taking a look back, quoting Brans post of "alleged low showings" is not helping your case at all because they are all circumstancial. It does nothing to hurt Steve's credibility of higher showings. Take a look:

Dormammu & GR - Dormammu>>>Steven anyway. Not a low showing
Umar amped Clea - Steve said himself he was using lesser spells in order to not hurt Clea. Not a low showing.
Azarel - Steve was depowered. Mordo entrapped his EoA and cloak. Not a low showing.
Sword of Kammu - The mystic had to repeatedly cut through layers of shielding that Steve mentally erected not only around his Santum but the whole nation. Surely not a low showing.
Mystic mist - Steve just said his defences were breached. No spell is cast nor is a shield even shown.
Ningal - Was amped by Dweller in Darkness and still had to continuously pound to the point he grew tired of it and decided to uproot the ground Steven stood on. Certainly not a low showing.
Next scan - The power was increased 100 fold and Steven still managed to repel the beams highest intensity setting. Can't see this as a low showing at all.
Next scan - It took the combined power of 2 mystics. Not a low showing.
Absorbing Man - This was only a shade of Seraphim. Not the actual shield. Not a low showing.
Science scan - Doesn't apply to this fight.
Exaustion - Spell was cast against D'spayre who is a powerful Fearlord demon who's specialty is creating mental madness and fear. D'spayre even admitted no one has ever done that before. Not a low showing.

The other scan is not applible to this battle.

all they have GREAT answers for ss's powerset AND strange's, while namor and hulk are pretty much useless which also give a major numbers advantage not too long into the fight. but we'll simply not agree i suppose.

I see it like this: Steve banishes Thunderstrike, Hulk pounds Thor Girl, Surfer can hold his own with BRB. Steve>Thor. By the time Thunderstrike comes back, everybody pounds on him. I don't see the Defenders having much trouble. Mostly due to Steve.