Defenders vs. Thor Corps

Originally posted by leonidas
😂

so.... THIS:

never really happened.....? but COULD? 👆

are those the kinds of things you asked me to 'prove'? because i can make stuff up too and say it WOULD happen. i went back through the thread and near as i can tell everything you required 'proof' for i (and bran) showed you. your reply--all the instances were pis. i can't really help that, nor can i help the way you only want to look at the highest end feats.

in which case, every battle thor was in where he did NOT soul suck or godblast someone is also pis since we only look at the highest showings. thor is therefore a galactus killing, skyfather beating trans/skyfather level hero.

works for me. 🙂

Well explain to me how's Surfer supposed to beat Steve 1 on 1? You have yet to answer any question I presented thus far. You talk about stuff being made up but the the thing is....you've said nothing.

I broke down every scan in bran's post and explained to you that everything was circumstancial. That's not "proof" for you. Those scans helped me more than it did you. There was not a low showing in the bunch. How you see this is PIS I can't fathom. Everything that happened was plot induced but reasonable.

I never said it was PIS when Strange failed to go all out every occasion. Common sense would indicate that no character goes hard and performs top of the line feats day in & day out. I don't see where you were going with that. You know Thor is only classified high herald level with all showings. Strange is comfortable trans imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
wut? so your scan shows him holding an already handled juggs and shows nothing of him doing...... anything else? AND in your first post you made it sound like it was STRANGE that dealt with him, when it was really cyttorak? 😑

c'mon man..... it's EXACTLY that type of out of context hype that i'm talking about with strange and you just did EXACTLY that. and you took offense when i said i didn't think the discussion would be productive? as i said--you keep your views, i'll keep mine......
👆

Scan clearly shows Strange in control of the bands. If he's strong enough to hold him, it dosen't matter who snared him. That's the same spell he envokes from Cytorakk. Same bands that restrained Hulk. Nothings out of context. Fact of the matter is Steve is capable of imprisoning them.

I didn't get offended at all. (Did you notice the lol?) It's really comical at this point. I just told you what your problem was with this debate. Then you played dumb & asked me what was I referring to . All you've done is responded courtesy Bran and make little chip posts off other comments. It's almost like your debating via third person.

Anyways I'll take heed to the last 7 words of your post. Agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Well explain to me how's Surfer supposed to beat Steve 1 on 1? You have yet to answer any question I presented thus far. You talk about stuff being made up but the the thing is....[B]you've said nothing.

I broke down every scan in bran's post and explained to you that everything was circumstancial. That's not "proof" for you. Those scans helped me more than it did you. There was not a low showing in the bunch. How you see this is PIS I can't fathom. Everything that happened was plot induced but reasonable.

I never said it was PIS when Strange failed to go all out every occasion. Common sense would indicate that no character goes hard and performs top of the line feats day in & day out. I don't see where you were going with that. You know Thor is only classified high herald level with all showings. Strange is comfortable trans imo. [/B]

man, we've really differing views of what exactly has been going on in this thread. i repeat--what exactly did you ask me? you said his shields were invulnerable. scans showed it wasn't, you said it was pis. you say he's trans. i list a bunch of low level guys who've ko'd him and you say it's pis. i say he gets tired and his stamina and durability are not great and are a definite vulnerabilty. i show some scans and.... you say its pis.

things aren't 'circumstantial' just because you want to believe it is so. those things happen to strange OFTEN. his 'trans' feats are FAR outweighed by bis far LESS than trans-feats. and really, WHAT feats?? seriously? the ib? who with a FRACTION of his power earlier was going to slay strange but didn't want to? death? how tough was that avatar?? certainly not galactus.....

for all that you want him to be trans, he has decidedly FEW feats to back that up and they are no where NEAR consistent enough. ss has a otn of feats that i could use to say he's trans--defeated tenebrous and aegis, defeated mephisto in hell (and he kicked strange's and doom's a$$ there) destroying a watcher, stalemating the stranger, synthesizing the odinpower, defeating elders of the universe, beating murrungo mu who galactus was apparently afraid of. i could go on. is that enouh to put him in trans as well? i could do the same for thor.

and as i said, ss has synthesized the odinpower--i think he could definitely answer anything strange wanted to try though it would be a good battle. and juggs was already subdued--had he been figthing strange directly it is far from clear he could have got the bands on him and given that they have been broken in the past it's not unlikely that cyttorak's spell was stronger than strange could have cast.

for every high end feat, i showed less than high end feats. we don't go by just high end feats when determining level, and THAT is my 'problem' with this debate. a couple high end feats are all you want to use to define him. and that's your perogative. i see him, his history, and his consistent showings in a much different light.

this must be the post you say i didn't reply to.....

Originally posted by Sundipped
Dormammu & GR - Dormammu>>>Steven anyway. Not a low showing

i agree--dormmy>strange

[quoteUmar amped Clea - Steve said himself he was using lesser spells in order to not hurt Clea. Not a low showing.[/quote]

huh?? no he wasn't? SHE called it a lesser spell. he was shocked that thought the spell was weak. that is NOT one of his lesser spells....

Azarel - Steve was depowered. Mordo entrapped his EoA and cloak. Not a low showing.

again.... huh?? WHO 'deprived' him of his tools?? it wasn't mordo. azrael cast the bands. not sure what you're talking about. and the eye and the cloak 'depowered' his shields?? you can have fun proving that....

Sword of Kammu - The mystic had to repeatedly cut through layers of shielding that Steve mentally erected not only around his Santum but the whole nation. Surely not a low showing.

depends on how 'invincible' you claim his shields are i guess. you're right, not low imo because i've seen his shields broken before. but i'm not claiming they are invulnerable.....

Mystic mist - Steve just said his defences were breached. No spell is cast nor is a shield even shown.

no spell? 😕 what do you think that white blast was....?

Ningal - Was amped by Dweller in Darkness and still had to continuously pound to the point he grew tired of it and decided to uproot the ground Steven stood on. Certainly not a low showing.

the pounding prevented his reinforcing it, which is what i'd said earlier. and who knows how amped?

Next scan - The power was increased 100 fold and Steven still managed to repel the beams highest intensity setting. Can't see this as a low showing at all.

a hundred times what?? you can choose to see it as a good showing, i see it as a typical one.

Next scan - It took the combined power of 2 mystics. Not a low showing.

again, mystics. and again, just mroe proof the shields can be smashed.

Absorbing Man - This was only a shade of Seraphim. Not the actual shield. Not a low showing.

honestly, again i have to say 😑 strange cursed. he didn't cast a shades of the seraphim spell..... the shield was smashed by creel....

Exaustion - Spell was cast against D'spayre who is a powerful Fearlord demon who's specialty is creating mental madness and fear. D'spayre even admitted no one has ever done that before. Not a low showing.

i could show his beat down by skurge and amora and how exhausted he was. and his battle with hulk. there are others. i could show his battle with nebula too.....

again, i think this is likely pointless. i'm MORE than happy to let people look and judge for themselves. but i really don't understand some of what you said above about those scans......

Originally posted by leonidas
man, we've really differing views of what exactly has been going on in this thread. i repeat--what exactly did you ask me? you said his shields were invulnerable. scans showed it wasn't, you said it was pis. you say he's trans. i list a bunch of low level guys who've ko'd him and you say it's pis. i say he gets tired and his stamina and durability are not great and are a definite vulnerabilty. i show some scans and.... you say its pis.

Questions you ignored:

Originally posted by Sundipped
He called upon all three members of the Vishanti for that attack which momentarily put death down. Explain again how Thor would not be affected by this.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Show me evidence of Thor withstanding tp capable of besting a mind gem weilder.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Show me evidence of Thor landing a GB on someone with the caliber speed of Surfer.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Well explain to me how's Surfer supposed to beat Steve 1 on 1?

Show me where I said his shields were invunerable. 😕
Those scans do absolutely nothing to help your case pis or not.

Originally posted by leonidas
things aren't 'circumstantial' just because you want to believe it is so. those things happen to strange OFTEN. his 'trans' feats are FAR outweighed by bis far LESS than trans-feats. and really, WHAT feats?? seriously? the ib? who with a FRACTION of his power earlier was going to slay strange but didn't want to? death? how tough was that avatar?? certainly not galactus.....

Things happen to everybody so whats your point? You tried to cherry pick what you thought were low showings and failed miserably. The fact that IB said Steve was formidable casts aside your preconcieved notion that IB was taking it that easy on him. I already told you that an M-body holds the essence of the actual entity. Quit trying to lowball his encounter with Death. Let's see Thor try to oppose Death and see what happens.

Originally posted by leonidas
for all that you want him to be trans, he has decidedly FEW feats to back that up and they are no where NEAR consistent enough. ss has a otn of feats that i could use to say he's trans--defeated tenebrous and aegis, defeated mephisto in hell (and he kicked strange's and doom's a$$ there) destroying a watcher, stalemating the stranger, synthesizing the odinpower, defeating elders of the universe, beating murrungo mu who galactus was apparently afraid of. i could go on. is that enouh to put him in trans as well? i could do the same for thor.

My opinion is that with all of his items at his disposal he is no less than low trans. Scans of Surfer destroying a Watcher? Not really impressive anyway considering the head Watcher got ko'ed by Rulk.😕 As far as Elders go Surfer got punked by Runner with extreme ease. He didn't beat T & A straight up he channeled the crunch. Oh and Mephisto stomped Surfer. What fight were you reading??

"Your power cosmic is like the yapping of an earthly puppy to the roar of Mephisto's might".

Originally posted by leonidas
and as i said, ss has synthesized the odinpower--i think he could definitely answer anything strange wanted to try though it would be a good battle. and juggs was already subdued--had he been figthing strange directly it is far from clear he could have got the bands on him and given that they have been broken in the past it's not unlikely that cyttorak's spell was stronger than strange could have cast.

Synthesization doesn't = win. Strange is capable of flight but you say he'd be hard pressed to get the bands on Juggs? 😂
The same bands that had Hulk pinned up and I think everyone ould agree Hulk>/=Juggs. Not unlikely that Steve can cast and hold him as well.

[i]Originally posted by leonidas [i/]
for every high end feat, i showed less than high end feats. we don't go by just high end feats when determining level, and THAT is my 'problem' with this debate. a couple high end feats are all you want to use to define him. and that's your perogative. i see him, his history, and his consistent showings in a much different light.

Sorry but what you showed showed were not "less than high end feats".

Originally posted by leonidas
this must be the post you say i didn't reply to.....

i agree--dormmy>strange

[quoteUmar amped Clea - Steve said himself he was using lesser spells in order to not hurt Clea. Not a low showing.

huh?? no he wasn't? SHE called it a lesser spell. he was shocked that thought the spell was weak. that is NOT one of his lesser spells....

again.... huh?? WHO 'deprived' him of his tools?? it wasn't mordo. azrael cast the bands. not sure what you're talking about. and the eye and the cloak 'depowered' his shields?? you can have fun proving that....

depends on how 'invincible' you claim his shields are i guess. you're right, not low imo because i've seen his shields broken before. but i'm not claiming they are invulnerable.....

no spell? 😕 what do you think that white blast was....?

the pounding prevented his reinforcing it, which is what i'd said earlier. and who knows how amped?

a hundred times what?? you can choose to see it as a good showing, i see it as a typical one.

again, mystics. and again, just mroe proof the shields can be smashed.

honestly, again i have to say 😑 strange cursed. he didn't cast a shades of the seraphim spell..... the shield was smashed by creel....

i could show his beat down by skurge and amora and how exhausted he was. and his battle with hulk. there are others. i could show his battle with nebula too.....

again, i think this is likely pointless. i'm MORE than happy to let people look and judge for themselves. but i really don't understand some of what you said above about those scans...... [/QUOTE]

Youre right it would be pointless. Pointless because of the fact you fail to comprehend the scans correctly. Either that or you didn't read em yourself. It's so much wrong with your interpretation of those scans that I won't even bother deciphering this again. Like you said, the people can judge for themselves.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Questions you ignored:

ignored?? er, don't really think so. the vishanti attack? thor absorbs it, shields it. and would it even be in character or would the vishanti agree if he were fighting thor? questionable in both cases.

i ignored the the ss's speed/gb issue cuz, well, we were talking about strange. 😐

how's ss to beat strange? 😑 a planet obliterating blast to break his shields followed by a second blast that kills him. 😐 you talked about speed. show me a scan of strange hitting someone as fast as ss. ss has his own shields and doesn't need to speak to anyone about using 'their' power.

strange himself has admitted ss is more powerful than he is, but i know how you'll label that.

THOSE were the questions you wanted answered??

Show me where I said his shields were invunerable. 😕
Those scans do absolutely nothing to help your case pis or not.

they indicate that it IS easily within reason that a hammer throw could smash strange's shield, something you saw as ridiculous early on. so, yeah, they helped. a lot. unless i need to show some of the power of thor's throws. a couple are pretty common knowledge though.

Things happen to everybody so whats your point? You tried to cherry pick what you thought were low showings and failed miserably.

you're wrong about that--i wasn't really trying to pcik low feats. those are TYPICAL feats. there's a big difference.

The fact that IB said Steve was formidable casts aside your preconcieved notion that IB was taking it that easy on him.

seriously? a compliment? and you're really clinging to those TWO feats. you're hanging your notion of him on his showing against ib and death. the second ib meeting could easily be seen as pis since in the FIRST meeting ib was WELL beyond him and nearly killed him with a 'fraction' of his power.

I already told you that an M-body holds the essence of the actual entity.

that's mostly true, but not the entirety of said being nor the entirety of their power. and of course you're forgetting it wasn't strange's power that did it, it was the vishanti's. and frankly it would likely be out of character for him to call on all 3 against thor.... certainly didn't seem to happen in blood and thunder where strange was pretty useless against thor who only had a SINGLE gem and who was a threat to the UNIVERSE.... without all his items thor wrecked him and warlock simultaneously.

Quit trying to lowball his encounter with Death. Let's see Thor try to oppose Death and see what happens.

lowball?? lol how many times did i say it was a good feat--but unquantifiable. quasar beat anamoly, an abstract, 1on1. bobby drake ko'd OBLIVION! that uber feat you keep talking up has been done by others. ss and thor have showings at LEAST as good as those 2, and loads more. why not make them trans?

My opinion is that with all of his items at his disposal he is no less than low trans. Scans of Surfer destroying a Watcher? Not really impressive anyway considering the head Watcher got ko'ed by Rulk.

you're using rulk? 😂 and you say I'M lowballing? the head watcher was killed, incidentally, by exitar quite some time ago. if uatu is now the leader of all the watchers, i'd love to see proof?

😕 As far as Elders go Surfer got punked by Runner with extreme ease.

true, but he did beat a few and has gone 1on1 with ego himself. among his other uber feats.

He didn't beat T & A straight up he channeled the crunch.

ironic much? that is precisely what strange does.....

Oh and Mephisto stomped Surfer. What fight were you reading??

never read the one-shot, eh.....? 🙂

"Your power cosmic is like the yapping of an earthly puppy to the roar of Mephisto's might".

yeah, except that was and has been contradicted in nearly ALL their fights. and it's not like mephisto lies often....

Synthesization doesn't = win. Strange is capable of flight but you say he'd be hard pressed to get the bands on Juggs? 😂

sure he could fly. but if juggs is moving he is unstoppable. would the bands stop him if he was moving? beats me. but i think if namor can break them, jugss has a good chance at them...

The same bands that had Hulk pinned up and I think everyone ould agree Hulk>/=Juggs. Not unlikely that Steve can cast and hold him as well.

never said he couldn't. just that the situation in your scan would not NECESSARILY be played out without cyttorak's intervention.

Sorry but what you showed showed were not "less than high end feats".

really? so you're saying they WERE high feats? cuz otherwise, they're..... less than high end. 😐

so, really, other than the second ib fight, and death, what HAS strange done, by himself, no prep or pis, that makes him so unbeatable? i looked back and you really haven't given much of anything aside from those 2 things.

the tp attack? one of the reasons (and i said this early on) that i gave strange and the defenders some wins is BECAUSE i think tp COULD play and issue, but thor has some great tp resistance at times, and if strange is focused on that, he's left open for others to attack. i said that too....

Originally posted by Sundipped
Pointless because of the fact you fail to comprehend the scans correctly. Either that or you didn't read em yourself. It's so much wrong with your interpretation of those scans that I won't even bother deciphering this again. Like you said, the people can judge for themselves.

you do seem to enjoy irony, but yeah, i'd challenge any reader out there to look at the scans then read your interpretations and not see the reasons for my....confusion.

Originally posted by leonidas
ignored?? er, don't really think so. the vishanti attack? thor absorbs it, shields it. and would it even be in character or would the vishanti agree if he were fighting thor? questionable in both cases.

Do you even know who the Vishanti are? Saying Thor would casually absorb/shield a blast channeled via Steve from all 3 members is absurd. What do you mean would they agree? What ties to Thor do they have which wouldn't allow them to grant Steve power. They grant power to the sorcerer supreme regardless who it is and who they battle. Nothing questionable about that.

Originally posted by leonidas
i ignored the the ss's speed/gb issue cuz, well, we were talking about strange. 😐
how's ss to beat strange? 😑 a planet obliterating blast to break his shields followed by a second blast that kills him. 😐 you talked about speed. show me a scan of strange hitting someone as fast as ss. ss has his own shields and doesn't need to speak to anyone about using 'their' power.
strange himself has admitted ss is more powerful than he is, but i know how you'll label that.
THOSE were the questions you wanted answered??

The surfer speedblitz was relevant because this is a team battle and Surfer is on Steves team. As far as Surfer beating him, all Steve has to do is bfr him. He doesn't have to hit him. Steve's shields have held up aginst the destruction of planets and even realms so Surfer blasting away won't do much. Lol at you saying Surfer doesn't have to speak to use power. In case you missed it thats the benefit of being sorcerer supreme. Scans of him saying Surfer is more powerfull?

Originally posted by leonidas
they indicate that it IS easily within reason that a hammer throw could smash strange's shield, something you saw as ridiculous early on. so, yeah, they helped. a lot. unless i need to show some of the power of thor's throws. a couple are pretty common knowledge though. you're wrong about that--i wasn't really trying to pcik low feats. those are TYPICAL feats. there's a big difference.

They don't indicate anything but plot induced circumstances involving his shield which still held up despite those instances. A high level demon can't penetrate it but a hammer toss from a high herald is supposed to easily break it? Whatever floats your boat leo. The feats are typical and good imo. It shows that his shields still operate at a high level given the circumstances.

Originally posted by leonidas
seriously? a compliment? and you're really clinging to those TWO feats. you're hanging your notion of him on his showing against ib and death. the second ib meeting could easily be seen as pis since in the FIRST meeting ib was WELL beyond him and nearly killed him with a 'fraction' of his power.

He was in good condition when LC & MO showed up in the first meeting. Like I said earlier, being able to stalemate beams with him with LT standing there (albeit briefly) is still a feat. I'm not clinging on to it. Just pointing out a couple things.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's mostly true, but not the entirety of said being nor the entirety of their power. and of course you're forgetting it wasn't strange's power that did it, it was the vishanti's. and frankly it would likely be out of character for him to call on all 3 against thor.... certainly didn't seem to happen in blood and thunder where strange was pretty useless against thor who only had a SINGLE gem and who was a threat to the UNIVERSE.... without all his items thor wrecked him and warlock simultaneously.
lowball?? lol how many times did i say it was a good feat--but unquantifiable. quasar beat anamoly, an abstract, 1on1. bobby drake ko'd OBLIVION! that uber feat you keep talking up has been done by others. ss and thor have showings at LEAST as good as those 2, and loads more. why not make them trans?
you're using rulk? 😂 and you say I'M lowballing? the head watcher was killed, incidentally, by exitar quite some time ago. if uatu is now the leader of all the watchers, i'd love to see proof?
true, but he did beat a few and has gone 1on1 with ego himself. among his other uber feats.
ironic much? that is precisely what strange does.....

There are numerous occasions Steve has called on the Vishanti. Don't see why you don't think he will. This is one of the reasons I place him at the trans level. Because he has that ability. As for Thor, he'll never be considered trans because he (w/power gem)only managed a stalemate with a certified trans level being in Thanos.
When I said head watcher I mean the most familiar one.
Steve doesn't channel the crunch. What did you mean by that? You can't compare Steve envoking multiple entities occasionally to Surfer using a plot device that one time to beat T & A.

Originally posted by leonidas
never read the one-shot, eh.....? 🙂
yeah, except that was and has been contradicted in nearly ALL their fights. and it's not like mephisto lies often....

Look, it's Mephisto>>>Surfer as far as raw power output. Could Surfer ever challenge Big G like this. I think not.

Originally posted by leonidas
sure he could fly. but if juggs is moving he is unstoppable. would the bands stop him if he was moving? beats me. but i think if namor can break them, jugss has a good chance at them...never said he couldn't. just that the situation in your scan would not NECESSARILY be played out without cyttorak's intervention.

Don't know why you're making up irrelevant instances such as Juggs charging. It's irrelevant because Steve has flight capabilities. What's Jugg's going to charge to? This is tiring. I'm not going over this again. The bands held Hulk, the can hold Juggs too.

Originally posted by leonidas
really? so you're saying they WERE high feats? cuz otherwise, they're..... less than high end. 😐

No they weren't high end. Less than high end but certainly not low end.

Originally posted by leonidas
so, really, other than the second ib fight, and death, what HAS strange done, by himself, no prep or pis, that makes him so unbeatable? i looked back and you really haven't given much of anything aside from those 2 things.
the tp attack? one of the reasons (and i said this early on) that i gave strange and the defenders some wins is BECAUSE i think tp COULD play and issue, but thor has some great tp resistance at times, and if strange is focused on that, he's left open for others to attack. i said that too....

Never said Steve was totally unbeatable. He's not in this match by himself. I just don't see a team of hammers posing that much of a threat. At least not enough to win a majority vs. the Defenders. He beat Shuma by himself and has shown energy absorption abilities through the use of dark magic. Enough to destroy galaxies as I showed you earlier. He has the aid of the Vishanti if need be. And that's with no prep or artifacts at his disposal. What more do you need?

Now leo you can take the time and break down that post if you want but my views are going to remain the same. You think Thor Corps win, I think Defenders win for various reasons. Lets leave it at that.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Do you even know who the Vishanti are? Saying Thor would casually absorb/shield a blast channeled via Steve from all 3 members is absurd. What do you mean would they agree? What ties to Thor do they have which wouldn't allow them to grant Steve power. They grant power to the sorcerer supreme regardless who it is and who they battle. Nothing questionable about that.

the vishanti? sure, they're about galactus level in their own realms (at least aggy is, the other 2 are likely less powerful than aggy is) which would likely place them around elder god level imo. they are linked with chthon as well, which also leads me to think that would be about their level. my question revolves around the likelihood of him summoning the vishanti in this kind of battle--at least all of them. and they HAVE turned him down in the past. i thought (could be wrong) he only invoked them like he did against death, rarely. i'm unaware off-hand of another time he invoked all 3 adn he only did it against death because he was desperate. i just don't really see that attack happening here.

and given that thor absorbed the entire celestial null bomb, (a power orders of magnitude greater than galactus's herald my rage blast) i have no problem at all thinking thor could absorb it.

The surfer speedblitz was relevant because this is a team battle and Surfer is on Steves team. As far as Surfer beating him, all Steve has to do is bfr him. He doesn't have to hit him. Steve's shields have held up aginst the destruction of planets and even realms so Surfer blasting away won't do much.

and we've seen repeatedly that they have been broken by far less as well.

Lol at you saying Surfer doesn't have to speak to use power. In case you missed it thats the benefit of being sorcerer supreme. Scans of him saying Surfer is more powerfull?

a LOT of his powerful spells are incantations. if he wants to invoke, he has to speak. he can blast, but i see no way he'd ever hit ss if ss didn't want to be hit.

They don't indicate anything but plot induced circumstances involving his shield which still held up despite those instances. A high level demon can't penetrate it but a hammer toss from a high herald is supposed to easily break it?

a skyfather level hammer.....

The feats are typical and good imo. It shows that his shields still operate at a high level given the circumstances.

i never said they were weak--only that it is certainly conceiveable that thor could shatter them.

There are numerous occasions Steve has called on the Vishanti.

yeah, but individually, usually.

This is one of the reasons I place him at the trans level. Because he has that ability. As for Thor, he'll never be considered trans because he (w/power gem)only managed a stalemate with a certified trans level being in Thanos.

hrm, i'll disagree--vehemently with that.

When I said head watcher I mean the most familiar one.
Steve doesn't channel the crunch. What did you mean by that? You can't compare Steve envoking multiple entities occasionally to Surfer using a plot device that one time to beat T & A.

steve channels power from outside sources. ss channeled power from an outside source. he's absorbed suns to amp himself in the past. it's in his powerset, he just rarely uses it. no different really from strange.

Look, it's Mephisto>>>Surfer as far as raw power output. Could Surfer ever challenge Big G like this. I think not.

no, he couldn't because when he tries g steals his power. ss has stalemated mephisto a number of times and once no-sold a blast from his. and he fully overpowered him on one occasion. scans are apparently unavailable however, but it was bryne's one-shot. and he stalemated him for a while in his own book as well. and mu. and stranger. and he killed a throttled a watcher. he has many MANY feats i could list.

Don't know why you're making up irrelevant instances such as Juggs charging. It's irrelevant because Steve has flight capabilities. What's Jugg's going to charge to? This is tiring. I'm not going over this again. The bands held Hulk, the can hold Juggs too.

and hulk's broken them too. as has namor. juggs could too.

Never said Steve was totally unbeatable. He's not in this match by himself. I just don't see a team of hammers posing that much of a threat. At least not enough to win a majority vs. the Defenders. He beat Shuma by himself and has shown energy absorption abilities through the use of dark magic.

he'd never use dark magic in this match. ever.

And that's with no prep or artifacts at his disposal. What more do you need?

i need to see him consistently perform these feats you bring up--and i say it again, you really haven't brought up many. death? ib? dark magic-ing shuma? those few things put him at trans? some say higher! because he can summon the vishanti powers means he can beat anyone below them? could he kill odin with that blast? my point has always been that his feats are often overrated, seen without context and the ones everyone knows about are FEW, and outweighed by his more 'below skyfather level showings'. he's powerful, no doubt. could he beat thor? sure. could thor defeat him. yes, certainly imo.

and, and as for the strange admitting ss's greater--he did it when they were facing thanos and he told ss that only ss had the power to take out the titan. scan is around somewhere, and has been posted many times in the past.

With CIS...I can't picture any of the Thors taking WWH out.

I felt Mephisto's name being invoked across the internet and braced myself for disappointment. I am disappoint.