Originally posted by quanchi112
I didn't see it did only that he's well beyond anyone else who have access to the same abilities and skills that he does. 2.Ok.3.Sidious
Yoda
Windu
MaulTo me I compare each fictional movie setting to each other so despite it being comprised of an entire galaxy as opposed to earth I view it more or less one fictional universe's best vs. another fictional universe's top 5.
No, not Maul.
Maul was beaten by a Padawan Obi.
Originally posted by dadudemonIf you're talking overall: Mace, Sidious, Kenobi, Yoda, maybe Grievous.
2. I could easily argue that Achilles has a greater depth of "weapons mastery" than Anakin...when it comes to melee weapons, specifically.3. Anakin is in the top 5, easily. Who's better? Sidious? Yoda? Mace? That's pretty much it. Out of a pool of an entire galaxy, it's hard to argue which pool is greater. Meaning..."cream of the crop". However, I do not consider this even a logical line of reasoning: it does not matter which is better in their pool sizes: their actual skills matter.
Originally posted by quanchi112
My point is that Anakin lives through battles and gets second chances most warriors never see. He gets defeated by both Dooku and Obi yet lives. His entire history is mired by humiliating defeats and tampering. Dooku wasn't supposed to win because Palpatine's an ass and Obi just let Vader kill him the next time they met.
I can only ask again: How does that influence Anakin's level of abilities in relation to that of Achilles? It's storytelling, with, in case of the SW movies, most of it being determined by the "later" events in the original trilogy. That doesn't mean that Anakin is inferior to Achilles. So we can chalk that up to your regular downtalking attempts.
He was unstable because he gave into his hate. You're not supposed to do so as a jedi. Do you watch these movies ?
Do you have the slightest bit of information about the SW universe? Anakin - according to the RotS Novel - always attempted to keep his hatred under control. When he did finally unleash it, that was the cause for the defeat of Dooku. So he is not emotionally unstable, when defeating Dooku, but gives in fully to the Dark Side. He does the same when invading the Jedi Temple and executing the seperatist leaders later in the film.
He is, however, emotionally unstable, when fighting Obi-Wan, because in that very situation, his hatred turns on the two persons, he had loved / liked the most. Natually, that didn't have a positive influence on his abilities in combat. But that's far away from his top level of abilities and, more important, it ain't gonna happen in any other fight he will be involved in - including this one against Achilles.
No, he isn't totally insane just more unstable. The whole film shows him become gradually more unstable as it progresses. Here we go with the excuses. I don't respect these tactics. You claim clones doesn't count now one of his saber fights in rots. You're argument is weak and you know it hence the excuses and cherry picking.
Given, that you are incapable of actually comprehending my argument, casting judgements about it seems a little bit off. No, Anakin isn't totally insane. He is still confused enough by the fundamental opposing feelings of hate and affection towards Padme first and Kenobi afterwards. I also have to disagree with your interpretation, that he does become more unstable over the progression of the movie. Right after being "turned" into Darth Vader, he produces some of his most impressive feats - until the point, where he has to confront his wife and his "brother".
Save Achilles. He's in a class by himself and well above mortals.
No. He isn't. Rince and repeat.
No, it wouldn't. Anakin's emotions would run wild and he'd make a mistake like he has in the past. Achilles' shield would also dramatically change the fight with what Anakin is used to.
Based on what exactly? Is there some emotional connection between the characters from different universes. I don't think so. So Anakin will at least be in his "usual" state, with his best form being the one, in which he managed to outduel Dooku. Either will be enough to destroy Achilles.
You didn't prove anything. Most people agree with no vested interest in our debate. You cite the majority in a post also. Hypocrite.
You're ignorance towards visual evidence, on screen material and reason doesn't win you a debate.
This is the movie versus forum so please quit with the eu bs. Achilles is from one movie you want or honestly think it's fair to start including eu feats. You're dishonorable.
I could include movie feats, which means that Achilles get force choked and simple dies. 😉
Concession accepted.
I wonder where you found a concession there. Or was that an attempt to mimick me. Won't help you to win this debate either.
This thread is about who is a better swordsman. Achilles doesn't fight against people with supernatural force crushing powers. Try and think.
He does fight a being that does possess superhuman strength (mechanical arm + force abilities), speed and is capable of precognition. He gets screwed, because he can't keep up with Anakin in terms of speed and endurance, while being inable to land an attack on the Jedi, because Anakin can accurately predict any of his moves.
Originally posted by BorbaradHe doesn't get a second chance against Achilles which he needed against both skilled opponents he at first lost too to overcome years later.
I can only ask again: How does that influence Anakin's level of abilities in relation to that of Achilles? It's storytelling, with, in case of the SW movies, most of it being determined by the "later" events in the original trilogy. That doesn't mean that Anakin is inferior to Achilles. So we can chalk that up to your regular downtalking attempts.
This is movuies only no novels. You claim to be sooo intelligent and are trying to use novels here. Wrong. Irrelevant. Not allowed. Do not pass go. He is emotionally unstable because he isn't supposed to give into his darker desires but does so easily. That's very unjedi like.
Do you have the slightest bit of information about the SW universe? Anakin - according to the RotS Novel - always attempted to keep his hatred under control. When he did finally unleash it, that was the cause for the defeat of Dooku. So he is not emotionally unstable, when defeating Dooku, but gives in fully to the Dark Side. He does the same when invading the Jedi Temple and executing the seperatist leaders later in the film. [/B]
No, it counts just like his Dooku fight counts as well. You want to cite excuse after excuse in order to not allow his loss. Sorry, the guy was a wreck and only fell further and further down the rabbit hole. As far back as clones did he still use poor decision making in battle against Dooku as well. The guy is stupid in battle.
He is, however, emotionally unstable, when fighting Obi-Wan, because in that very situation, his hatred turns on the two persons, he had loved / liked the most. Natually, that didn't have a positive influence on his abilities in combat. But that's far away from his top level of abilities and, more important, it ain't gonna happen in any other fight he will be involved in - including this one against Achilles. [/B]
Insulting while debating isn't debating. In the states we don't take kindly to these sort of bullying tactics. I don't care if he has some of his more impressive feats he's still unstable while accomplishing them so that doesn't change the fact he's an unstable crybaby for most of the film.
Given, that you are incapable of actually comprehending my argument, casting judgements about it seems a little bit off. No, Anakin isn't totally insane. He is still confused enough by the fundamental opposing feelings of hate and affection towards Padme first and Kenobi afterwards. I also have to disagree with your interpretation, that he does become more unstable over the progression of the movie. Right after being "turned" into Darth Vader, he produces some of his most impressive feats - until the point, where he has to confront his wife and his "brother". [/B]
Wrong.No. He isn't. Rince and repeat. [/B]
No, but you don't eliminate his mindset. The guy was always fighting off his emotions. You can't get to pick which mindset he's under here. It's all fair game. Even in his Dooku mindset Achilles pwns him.
Based on what exactly? Is there some emotional connection between the characters from different universes. I don't think so. So Anakin will at least be in his "usual" state, with his best form being the one, in which he managed to outduel Dooku. Either will be enough to destroy Achilles. [/B]
Your ignoring and my logic, reasoning, and points win me this debate.
You're ignorance towards visual evidence, on screen material and reason doesn't win you a debate. [/B]
If he tried such a tactic I think Achilles could resist with his superior strength and probably launch a spear into Vader.
I could include movie feats, which means that Achilles get force choked and simple dies. 😉 [/B]
You conceded. Just let it go.
I wonder where you found a concession there. Or was that an attempt to mimick me. Won't help you to win this debate either.He does fight a being that does possess superhuman strength (mechanical arm + force abilities), speed and is capable of precognition. He gets screwed, because he can't keep up with Anakin in terms of speed and endurance, while being inable to land an attack on the Jedi, because Anakin can accurately predict any of his moves. [/B]
Achilles isn't prone to making stupid decisions while in battle and is far stronger and better with his melee weapons and his shield which keeps his saber at bay. Achilles then goes onto screw Padme.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul beat him in the saber duel and only lost due to taunting. I think skill wise Maul would beat Vader's ass.
Maul is behind Pre-Suit Vader in Saber skills.
We have the ratings from the fight choreographer himself: Yoda, Sidious, and Vader were all 9s.
Maul was an 8.
I win.
Originally posted by dadudemonThat's just his opinion. Obi stalemated him with a saber before Vader turned out to be the biggest dumbass ever in a saber fight. Maul would beat Vader.
Maul is behind Pre-Suit Vader in Saber skills.We have the ratings from the fight choreographer himself: Yoda, Sidious, and Vader were all 9s.
Maul was an 8.
I win.
Originally posted by quanchi112
That's just his opinion.
Well, that would be a good point...if only he weren't the literal dude in charge of giving them their perceived abilities, on screen.
His opinion actually SET the literal abilities of his fighters.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Obi stalemated him with a saber before Vader turned out to be the biggest dumbass ever in a saber fight. Maul would beat Vader.
Vader was kicking Obi's ass most of the fight. We can also bring up how Obi is retardedly good at defense, knew Anakin really well, and Anakin wasn't thinking straight (all obvious points).
Maul would get mauled, actually.
Even the EU agrees with a suited Vader beating Maul...much less pre-suit Vader. 🙂
Originally posted by Korto VosJinny wasn't crap either. Obi was defeated nonetheless.
Jinny wasn't great. Kenobi was a Padawan.ROTS Anakin destroyed Dooku when in "teh zone!!11" and Dooku > Maul.
Maul would beat Dooku as well.
Originally posted by dadudemonThis guy doesn't decide who wins though so at the end of the day it's just his opinion.
Well, that would be a good point...if only he weren't the literal dude in charge of giving them their perceived abilities, on screen.His opinion actually SET the literal abilities of his fighters.
Vader was kicking Obi's ass most of the fight. We can also bring up how Obi is retardedly good at defense, knew Anakin really well, and Anakin wasn't thinking straight (all obvious points).
Maul would get mauled, actually.
Even the EU agrees with a suited Vader beating Maul...much less pre-suit Vader. 🙂
Vader didn't do anything to actually win the fight and Obi was giving just as good as he was taking as well.
Nah, Maul would win but onscreen I am fully aware that if Lucas had to write it he'd have Maul lose due to his fetish for Vader. Based on what I saw on screen Maul takes him. Vader was vastly overrated.
Originally posted by quanchi112
This guy doesn't decide who wins though so at the end of the day it's just his opinion.
That's irrelevant to the actual point. In every case, the guy with the stronger rating won with the exception of the Vader and Obi Won. We know what they happened, as well.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader didn't do anything to actually win the fight and Obi was giving just as good as he was taking as well.
Except for kicking Obi Wan's ass every which way until the "jump" CIS moment, of course. You forgot about that, didn't you?
Originally posted by quanchi112
Nah, Maul would win but onscreen I am fully aware that if Lucas had to write it he'd have Maul lose due to his fetish for Vader. Based on what I saw on screen Maul takes him. Vader was vastly overrated.
Okay, except he couldn't because the rating system says he couldn't (movies only) and Suit Vader beat him in the EU.
So both "canon" sources defeat your position.
There are things you can argue and things you can't: this is not one you can argue. Canon is "serious business."
You can hold the position that, "I think Maul would win because he looks better as a duelist...but I do admit that I would be wrong in both the contexts of the films and the EU. But I just like Maul better." But you can't say he would win when he can't literally win within the fictional universe.
Context your position with something more canon than the fight choreographer's words. The only thing that can trump that guy is GL himself. Do you have something from GL? Even indirect?
If not, then deal with your favorite losing to Anakin based on their combat ratings.
Originally posted by dadudemonSo it's quite relevant since Vader lost and I am comparing him to Maul.
That's irrelevant to the actual point. In every case, the guy with the stronger rating won with the exception of the Vader and Obi Won. We know what they happened, as well.
If you consider a few pushes and a choke attempt as kicking ass, sure. Obi's kick also put Anakin on his ass.
Except for kicking Obi Wan's ass every which way until the "jump" CIS moment, of course. You forgot about that, didn't you?
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Wasn't suit Vader losing and he had to stab through himself to win ?
Okay, except he couldn't because the rating system says he couldn't (movies only) and Suit Vader beat him in the EU.
[/B]
There is no proof Vader is better than him and the only reason vader would win is due to hero winning. Vader is fated to not be able to die so thus Dooku didn't kill him nor did Obi despite beating him in combat.
So both "canon" sources defeat your position.There's thing you can argue and things you can't: this is not one of you can argue. Canon is "serious business." [/B]
Originally posted by quanchi112
So it's quite relevant since Vader lost and I am comparing him to Maul.
Actually, not it's not relevant at all. That version of Obi wan was rated at like 6 or 7. He only won because...get this...Maul got too cocky. 🙂
That version of Obi Wan is vastly inferior to the RotS version of Obi Wan.
🙂
Thanks for falling into the trap, though.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Wasn't suit Vader losing and he had to stab through himself to win ?
Didn't suit Vader win against Maul in a Saber Duel in the EU (rhetorical question)?
Originally posted by quanchi112
There is no proof Vader is better than him and the only reason vader would win is due to hero winning. Vader is fated to not be able to die so thus Dooku didn't kill him nor did Obi despite beating him in combat.
You mean there is no proof that MAUL is better than Vader and only movie canon proof that Vader is better than maul based off of the choreographer's saber skill ratings.
And that additional line of reasoning is actually made up bullshit.
Stick with what is seen on screen: Anakin beat Dooku. No need to add your bullshit opinion. 🙂
Originally posted by dadudemonObi didn't beat him by being a better swordsman or even appear in his league. Vader had a long drawn out fight which was still basically a stalemate in which he did something stupid against an inferior opponent. The context is entirely different, daduder.
Actually, not it's not relevant at all. That version of Obi wan was rated at like 6 or 7. He only won because...get this...Maul got too cocky. 🙂That version of Obi Wan is vastly inferior to the RotS version of Obi Wan.
🙂Thanks for falling into the trap, though.
The point I am making is Vader was losing skill wise and only won due to stabbing through himself into Maul from what I hear. Is that true ? If so there goes your point.
Didn't suit Vader win against Maul in a Saber Duel in the EU (rhetorical question)?[/B]
Anakin beat Dooku because he had years and a partner to take him on unfairly. Who knows how great Maul would have become if he had years to further hone his skills. Anakin had a buddy along for the trip whereas Maul took on two at a time. Anakin wouldn't beat Maul. Sorry about your day.
You mean there is no proof that MAUL is better than Vader and only movie canon proof that Vader is better than maul based off of the choreographer's saber skill ratings.And that additional line of reasoning is actually made up bullshit.
Stick with what is seen on screen: Anakin beat Dooku. No need to add your bullshit opinion. 🙂 [/B]