Achilles vs. Darth Vader (ROTS pre suit)

Originally posted by quanchi112
Obi didn't beat him by being a better swordsman or even appear in his league. Vader had a long drawn out fight which was still basically a stalemate in which he did something stupid against an inferior opponent. The context is entirely different, daduder.

I think you misunderstood: you should not have responded. There is literally nothing you can post at all, after my post, that would work as any sort of counter UNLESS George Lucas himself said something that contradicted the information in my post. This is your problem: sometimes, you are just wrong. Just admit it and move on. In FACT, your post is only agreeing with mine. Your comparison failed, I called you on it, and now you're tryingto pass off my point by saying the same exact thing I already have...just using different words. Do you realize that you just conceded that entire line of reasoning by agreeing with me?

Originally posted by quanchi112
The point I am making is Vader was losing skill wise and only won due to stabbing through himself into Maul from what I hear. Is that true ? If so there goes your point.

I think you missed the point for a second time in a row. Let's try this again:

"Didn't suit Vader win against Maul in a Saber Duel in the EU (rhetorical question)?"

The correct answer is, "yes, dadudemon, Vader won that fair saber duel against Maul...in his suit, in the EU." No need for anything else.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Anakin beat Dooku because he had years and a partner to take him on unfairly. Who knows how great Maul would have become if he had years to further hone his skills. Anakin had a buddy along for the trip whereas Maul took on two at a time. Anakin wouldn't beat Maul. Sorry about your day.

I guess you don't know anything about the EU, then, huh? Maul got his "years".

And, my day has been great. Sorry about shitting on yours by making you look the fool. It's hard being right about just about everything, but I get along just fine despite being like that.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The point I am making is Vader was losing skill wise and only won due to stabbing through himself into Maul from what I hear. Is that true ? If so there goes your point.

Anakin beat Dooku because he had years and a partner to take him on unfairly. Who knows how great Maul would have become if he had years to further hone his skills. Anakin had a buddy along for the trip whereas Maul took on two at a time. Anakin wouldn't beat Maul. Sorry about your day.

And if you're indulging in EU for the moment, then Anakin beat Dooku do to a momentary surge in simultaneous lucidity and anger. Anakin couldn't defeat Dooku until he tapped the Dark Side. Obi-Wan was cast aside like he was nothing, even after both he and Anakin pulled the 'ol switcheroo on Dooku. Vader would later go on dominate his fight with Obi-Wan.

Maul also was pushed back by an enraged Padawan Kenobi, and utilized Qui-Gon's age and saber style to his advantage. A much, much older-than-Maul-and-Jinn Dooku easily trounced a more skilled and powerful Obi-Wan than Maul did, while simultaneously fending off an even more powerful Anakin. Dooku>>>Maul. Anakin>>>Maul. Obi-Wan>>>Maul. Maul= 🙁

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Maul also was pushed back by an enraged Padawan Kenobi, and utilized Qui-Gon's age and saber style to his advantage. A much, much older-than-Maul-and-Jinn Dooku easily trounced a more skilled and powerful Obi-Wan than Maul did, while simultaneously fending off an even more powerful Anakin. Dooku>>>Maul. Anakin>>>Maul. Obi-Wan>>>Maul. Maul= 🙁

Lulz.

From how I read the novel, Dooku went into that fight to kill Obi Wan (he almost did a couple of times) and kill/defeat Anakin. If Anakin defeated Dooku, Sidious would spare Dooku and Anakin would take over as his Apprentice. If Dooku won, Anakin proved to be not worthy of the apprenticeship. It turns out that Sidious, being a sith lord, counted on Vader (probably saw the future) becoming his Sith Lord and rulin the galaxy for quite a long time with him...unbeknownst to Dooku.

Dooku was played as a punk b*tch once Anakin turned it on into overdrive, Sidious got a massive erection from it (seriously, just watch his pleasure watching it happen in the film) and Dooku shit himself once he realized he was played the fool and was only a tool this whole time for Sidious: head went bye-bye.

But, yes, Maul<Dooku<Anakin. Maul is skilled, alright, but he has a ways to cover before he makes it into the top 5 like Anakin.

Lucas said in the film's commentary that Sidious was testing the both of them. Whoever won the fight got to live as his apprentice. Dooku, though, went in to the engagement believing that he was meant to kill Kenobi to enrage Anakin, then lose to Anakin (likely legitimately) and the three would rule together as a triad of Sith Lords. When Dooku realized mid-fight what Sidious was doing, he amped it up. Anakin went through three separate mental stages: Jedi, angry, and what we call "Z0ne" Anakin.

When Dooku took out Obi-Wan, Anakin became angry and started pushing Dooku back. Dooku then pretty much said "Yeah, how very Jedi of you", and Anakin regressed from anger and Dooku regained the advantage. At one final prompt from Sidious, Anakin "transformed in to teh Z0ne" and casually and easily disarmed Dooku within seconds. Such quick and decisive ownage over one of the best swordsman the Order ever produced is why we so often hold RotS Anakin's saber skills in such high esteem. And it's worth noting that RotS Obi-Was was considered one of the best defensive swordsmen who ever lived, and both Dooku and Vader took him to proverbial school in that book.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Lucas said in the film's commentary that Sidious was testing the both of them. Whoever won the fight got to live as his apprentice. Dooku, though, went in to the engagement believing that he was meant to kill Kenobi to enrage Anakin, then lose to Anakin (likely legitimately) and the three would rule together as a triad of Sith Lords. When Dooku realized mid-fight what Sidious was doing, he amped it up. Anakin went through three separate mental stages: Jedi, angry, and what we call "Z0ne" Anakin.

When Dooku took out Obi-Wan, Anakin became angry and started pushing Dooku back. Dooku then pretty much said "Yeah, how very Jedi of you", and Anakin regressed from anger and Dooku regained the advantage. At one final prompt from Sidious, Anakin "transformed in to teh Z0ne" and casually and easily disarmed Dooku within seconds. Such quick and decisive ownage over one of the best swordsman the Order ever produced is why we so often hold RotS Anakin's saber skills in such high esteem. And it's worth noting that RotS Obi-Was was considered one of the best defensive swordsmen who ever lived, and both Dooku and Vader took him to proverbial school in that book.

It's coming back to me now (it's been years since I read the novel).

But, I do remember Dooku shitting himself AFTER Anakin had two sabers at his neck. He didn't realize what Sidious plan was until after he was defeated like a punk b*tch.

But wait...

Anakin killed Dooku ONLY because Palpatine gave him the go ahead, right? Because he had supreme power at that moment in time, right? However, when Mace wanted to kill Palpatine, he had no authority because the only single individual with enough political power to give the order to slaughter someone high up was the emperor himself, right?

The reason I ask...a Star Wars hater was on about Anakin's hypocrisy when he demanded that Palpatine stand trial. Technically, Palpatine had not killed anyone nor did he do anything corrupt: he was just a person of the dark side which did not seem anything other than a religious debate, to an outsider.

Am I wrong?

That's how I explained it to the hater...but he did not buy it. I thought that's why went down.

This is important to the thread...I swear.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It's coming back to me now (it's been years since I read the novel).

But, I do remember Dooku shitting himself AFTER Anakin had two sabers at his neck. He didn't realize what Sidious plan was until after he was defeated like a punk b*tch.

But wait...

Anakin killed Dooku ONLY because Palpatine gave him the go ahead, right? Because he had supreme power at that moment in time, right? However, when Mace wanted to kill Palpatine, he had no authority because the only single individual with enough political power to give the order to slaughter someone high up was the emperor himself, right?

The reason I ask...a Star Wars hater was on about Anakin's hypocrisy when he demanded that Palpatine stand trial. Technically, Palpatine had not killed anyone nor did he do anything corrupt: he was just a person of the dark side which did not seem anything other than a religious debate, to an outsider.

Am I wrong?

That's how I explained it to the hater...but he did not buy it. I thought that's why went down.

This is important to the thread...I swear.

And Anakin killed Dooku because he wanted to, and needed encouragement from his friend and mentor, not his superior. It wasn't a legal or authoritative choice, it was bloodlust and hate. He needed the moral green light from someone he looked up to, namely Palpatine. Even when he stepped in before Mace could kill him, he concluded his reason for a "trial" as more of a desire for personal gain--"I need him!" Nothing legal, just lip-service to morality and selfish reasons.

The novel (in one of many instances that make it better than the film) addresses the issue of Palpatine's arrest and "trial". After the duel in his chamber, he altered the recordings to favour him. To paraphrase some of it:

Mace: "You are a Sith Lord."
Palpatine: "Am I? Where's the proof? And so what if I am? My personal philosophy has nothing to do with why you're attacking me."

After Palpatine reveals his nature to Anakin, instead of a cut to black and the implication that Anakin merely departed, they actually sit down and chat a while. Palpatine describes himself similar to what you said; just a guy with a different perspective and different motivation. He himself had committed no atrocities, he was technically innocent. Of course it looks over all the stuff he was pulling the strings for and ordering on his behalf, but Anakin was traumatized, so it's forgivable.

And I always like it when Star Wars brings up the fact that to the common person, Sith and Jedi aren't too dissimilar. The KotOR loading screens said that--"To many people, there's no difference between Jedi and Sith." It makes Mace's determination to end Palpatine before he has a chance to appeal to populism all the more credible.

And yes, this is all relevant. Totally.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think you misunderstood: you should not have responded. There is literally nothing you can post at all, after my post, that would work as any sort of counter UNLESS George Lucas himself said something that contradicted the information in my post. This is your problem: sometimes, you are just wrong. Just admit it and move on. In FACT, your post is only agreeing with mine. Your comparison failed, I called you on it, and now you're tryingto pass off my point by saying the same exact thing I already have...just using different words. Do you realize that you just conceded that entire line of reasoning by agreeing with me?

I will be honest here sometimes I wish I was wrong more often than I actually am because I'd like to fit in more with the rest of the human race.

I think you missed the point for a second time in a row. Let's try this again:

"Didn't suit Vader win against Maul in a Saber Duel in the EU (rhetorical question)?"

The correct answer is, "yes, dadudemon, Vader won that fair saber duel against Maul...in his suit, in the EU." No need for anything else.[/B]

You screwed up because someone who has greater skill doesn't have to ever resort to stabbing through themselves to beat their competition. You do that against someone because you aren't more skilled. To say oh yeah I had this guy totally outclassed just to fool him I stabbed him through my hip he totally didn't see it coming.

I was right and the fact Vader would win doesn't mean in a forum fight he does so. He won because of who he is as a character. Just like Harry Potter wasn't ever killed by Voldemort but in a forum battle Voldemort easily demolishes him. Just because we know a hero can't lose that doesn't mean we take that same rationale into a forum thread.

I guess you don't know anything about the EU, then, huh? Maul got his "years".

And, my day has been great. Sorry about shitting on yours by making you look the fool. It's hard being right about just about everything, but I get along just fine despite being like that. [/B]

I'm right--teehee.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The Maul Doppelganger that Vader killed was ambiguous in nature. Whether it was a phantom or a clone is unknown, as is the the discrepancy in skill and power from the original.

And if you're indulging in EU for the moment, then Anakin beat Dooku do to a momentary surge in simultaneous lucidity and anger. Anakin couldn't defeat Dooku until he tapped the Dark Side. Obi-Wan was cast aside like he was nothing, even after both he and Anakin pulled the 'ol switcheroo on Dooku. Vader would later go on dominate his fight with Obi-Wan.

Maul also was pushed back by an enraged Padawan Kenobi, and utilized Qui-Gon's age and saber style to his advantage. A much, much older-than-Maul-and-Jinn Dooku easily trounced a more skilled and powerful Obi-Wan than Maul did, while simultaneously fending off an even more powerful Anakin. Dooku>>>Maul. Anakin>>>Maul. Obi-Wan>>>Maul. Maul= 🙁

Maul is better with a saber. Vader is the luckiest guy in star wars. He's the McClane. He loses time and time again but lives on.

Yes, Maul was pushed back and then easily bested him due to Obi losing himself due to anger. Guess what Vader does loses himself due to anger. Thanks for helping me illustrate my point as well.

Maul was better than Anakin or Dooku with a saber.

Originally posted by quanchi112
We debate this based on objective evidence not because someone else stated their opinion. If you want someone else to do your thinking for you that's fine but don't expect me to do the same.

I'm glad you're conceding the point. Yes, the fight choreographer, who discussed the characters abilities in detail with Lucas, decided upon the abilities and portrayed their abilities on a scale of 1-10, and represented them on screen for us.

Thank you for conceding that you are not being objective at all and I was being the absolute most objective.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I will be honest here sometimes I wish I was wrong more often than I actually am because I'd like to fit in more with the rest of the human race.

Then I'll let you in on a little secret: you're wrong just as much as the average human...you just don't know it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Context.

You screwed up because someone who has greater skill doesn't have to ever resort to stabbing through themselves to beat their competition. You do that against someone because you aren't more skilled. To say oh yeah I had this guy totally outclassed just to fool him I stabbed him through my hip he totally didn't see it coming.

I was right and the fact Vader would win doesn't mean in a forum fight he does so. He won because of who he is as a character. Just like Harry Potter wasn't ever killed by Voldemort but in a forum battle Voldemort easily demolishes him. Just because we know a hero can't lose that doesn't mean we take that same rationale into a forum thread.

Now now, don't get all pissed because you got schooled.

You need to just take a step back and admit this:

The correct answer is, "yes, dadudemon, Vader won that fair saber duel against Maul...in his suit, in the EU." No need for anything else.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I never said I did but I have heard how Vader bested him. I heard Vader was losing until he stabbed through himself to win which doesn't scream greatly skilled to me it screams desperation.

I'm right--teehee.

Now now, no need to dismiss an EU feat because it makes you directly wrong. Sorry, pal...but you're wrong. 🙂

Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul was better than Anakin or Dooku with a saber.

hysterical

I'm going to just save this lil' tidbit here...and requote it everynow and again when you get out of hand.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm glad you're conceding the point. Yes, the fight choreographer, who discussed the characters abilities in detail with Lucas, decided upon the abilities and portrayed their abilities on a scale of 1-10, and represented them on screen for us.

Thank you for conceding that you are not being objective at all and I was being the absolute most objective.[/B]

Then I'll let you in on a little secret: you're wrong just as much as the average human...you just don't know it.[/B]

Now now, don't get all pissed because you got schooled.

You need to just take a step back and admit this:

The correct answer is, "yes, dadudemon, Vader won that fair saber duel against Maul...in his suit, in the EU." No need for anything else.[/B]

Now now, no need to dismiss an EU feat because it makes you directly wrong. Sorry, pal...but you're wrong. 🙂 [/B]

You're a true pal. 🙂

Originally posted by quanchi112
I am not conceding the point I am saying this is just one man's opinion which isn't canon. He doesn't get to decide the outcomes of the battles so thus it's just an opinion.
I wish I wasn't always so darn objective sometimes I want to be emotional like my fellow mvs brethren and debate based on my personal preference.

Yes, you accidentally conceded that point. Your fault. He decided this one. Deal with it. 🙂

Originally posted by quanchi112
So stabbing through your own body is proof you're superior in terms of skills with a saber ? Come on, you're lucky I don't have the comic in front of me because from what I have heard Maul was owning him up until that move further proving I am right that Maul would lose but is more skilled. Just like Voldemort can't kill Potter for all time in a movie but in the versus thread annihilates him.

You misunderstand. You should not be responding with anything other than:

"yes, dadudemon, Vader won that fair saber duel against Maul...in his suit, in the EU."

No need for anything else.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The eu battle backs up my reasoning not yours. It was pretty awesome of you to do so.

You're a true pal. 🙂

You misunderstand. You should not be responding with anything other than:

"yes, dadudemon, Vader won that fair saber duel against Maul...in his suit, in the EU."

No need for anything else.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I am not indulging in the eu he brought it up so I simply told him from what I heard which might be inaccurate but I doubt it the reason Maul lost is because Vader was desperate and had to stab through himself not because he easily crushed him due to superior skill.

Maul is better with a saber. Vader is the luckiest guy in star wars. He's the McClane. He loses time and time again but lives on.

Yes, Maul was pushed back and then easily bested him due to Obi losing himself due to anger. Guess what Vader does loses himself due to anger. Thanks for helping me illustrate my point as well.

Maul was better than Anakin or Dooku with a saber.

Maul was being pushed back because Obi-Wan was lost in anger. But Maul was still superior and defeated him. Vader was legitimately defeating Obi-Wan due to his own rage, and was bested by overconfidence. Please remember that--Vader was downed by his own overconfidence, not Kenobi's skill. Just as like Maul. And within the EU, Maul is not superior to Dooku in either the Force, or saber skills. That is a fact, not opinion.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, you accidentally conceded that point. Your fault. He decided this one. Deal with it. 🙂

You misunderstand. You should not be responding with anything other than:

"yes, dadudemon, Vader won that fair saber duel against Maul...in his suit, in the EU."

No need for anything else.[/B]

You misunderstand. You should not be responding with anything other than:

"yes, dadudemon, Vader won that fair saber duel against Maul...in his suit, in the EU."

No need for anything else. [/B]

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You missed my other point about the doppelganger. We don't know what enhancements had been given to Maul at that time. Or whether it really was Maul at all. It may very well have been a Force phantom conjured by Palpatine himself. Or a clone given Force or genetic enhancements. The very fact that Maul existed at that time is a mystery in itself, never mind what his skills and powers were.

Maul was being pushed back because Obi-Wan was lost in anger. But Maul was still superior and defeated him. Vader was legitimately defeating Obi-Wan due to his own rage, and was bested by overconfidence. Please remember that--Vader was downed by his own overconfidence, not Kenobi's skill. Just as like Maul. And within the EU, Maul is not superior to Dooku in either the Force, or saber skills. That is a fact, not opinion.

Maul defeated Obi. Vader didn't defeat Obi. Maul was killed because after disarming him he taunted him. Vader never disarmed or defeated Obi. That's the difference.

This isn't the eu so it doesn't matter. I win again.

Are you saying Maul is a better fighter than Vader? Because he clearly was not

Originally posted by quanchi112
So why use it as a valid example....I guess what you are saying is dude shouldn't have brought it up. I agree he does get carried away at times. But hey is my pal so don't think you can start talking smack about my friend.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul defeated Obi. Vader didn't defeat Obi. Maul was killed because after disarming him he taunted him. Vader never disarmed or defeated Obi. That's the difference.

This isn't the eu so it doesn't matter. I win again.

Oh and as a fun fact, you're line of reasoning here is what we mock as A>B>C Logic. Pretty much goes: A>B, and B>C, ergo A>C! It dismisses all variables and insists on a child-like simplistic approach to problem solving.

Originally posted by playa1258
Are you saying Maul is a better fighter than Vader? Because he clearly was not

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I narrowed my eyes here in a confused and inquisitive stare. Then I realized you've never made much sense, so I relaxed my ocular muscles and let it go.

You are aware that, EU aside, there's 13 years difference between TPM and RotS? 13 years of training and experience, 3 of those years were constant war. You aren't actually insisting that Kenobi stayed the same as he did when he fought Maul, are you?

Oh and as a fun fact, you're line of reasoning here is what we mock as A>B>C Logic. Pretty much goes: A>B, and B>C, ergo A>C! It dismisses all variables and insists on a child-like simplistic approach to problem solving.

No, I am not insisting he didn't grow in skill and formidability I am stating what I saw from him since PM isn't enough for me to consider him beating Maul.

Maul defeats Vader not because of abc logic but because he's more athletic and doesn't let emotion cloud his decision making in battle.

Neph is right. Even Rudy wasn't this dumb.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Neph is right. Even Rudy wasn't this dumb.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I didn't concede anything you admitted you let others do your thinking for you. I'd ask a mod to edit that one.

Originally posted by dadudemon
...the fight choreographer, who discussed the characters abilities in detail with Lucas, decided upon the abilities and portrayed their abilities on a scale of 1-10, and represented them on screen for us.

Thank you for conceding that you are not being objective at all and I was being the absolute most objective/

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't ignore the context you do. Good to know.

I love this notion of superior skill but hey I am going to cut through my balls just to beat you. What a lesson Lord Vader taught this doppleganger Maul.

Originally posted by dadudemon
"Didn't suit Vader win against Maul in a Saber Duel in the EU (rhetorical question)?"

The correct answer is, "yes, dadudemon, Vader won that fair saber duel against Maul...in his suit, in the EU." No need for anything else.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So why use it as a valid example....I guess what you are saying is dude shouldn't have brought it up. I agree he does get carried away at times. But hey is my pal so don't think you can start talking smack about my friend.

Can't hate you...evah! You're too aweosme. lol