Originally posted by abhilegend
So jake, are you implying that characters who have no superspeed but have tagged speedsters on many ocassions should be given the benefit of doubt? If that's your reasoning then at least half the characters in DCU are able to tag superman and at least 25% of MU has spidey level speed. This is just a cop out, you know writers would be jobless if they portray superman,flash and others as untouchable. I am not denying thor's capacity to tag people faster than him, but speed has always been a problem with thor. You are doing exactly what you were against in previous posts, taking thor's high end feats for speed throughout his history and passing it like his norm. Thor is a high herald only because of his lack of speed, give him true speed and he would railroad any herald.
No, PIS is PIS, regardless of how many times it happens. Batman's punked out Kal-El and various other JLAers through out his career. It's on panel, it's happened and more than once. It's still raging PIS.
Characters like Thor, who have tried and true instances of actually keeping up in battle against super-speedsters as well as the means to tag a fast being outside of just being in the right place and the right time, tagging people like Superman or analogues like him doesn't qualify as PIS. And I specifically cited it's an issue for him in my previous posts and that it gives an opponent an edge, so I'm not sure where most of this is coming from. It's consistent with his history and considering Thor can move Mjolnir at speeds far greater than light, there's nothing wrong with it. Furthermore, if I was exclusively using Thor's high end feats, well, frankly, this would be a massacre against Gladiator. And I also stated why using high end only feats is stupid as shit in my previous posts, anyway.
I also find it funny that every time Superman or Flash don't move at speeds far beyond light, it's somehow wrong or PIS, but their high end feats...aren't? This might not be a popular thought, but maybe the inverse is true? Perhaps it's the high end feats that are far from the norm. Hell, we know for a fact that Superman doesn't consistently operate at light-speeds, especially in an inhabited atmosphere. Obviously, I don't think Superman's high end feats are nessacarily PIS, but it's strange how anything except those feats gets written off. Averaging things out is the only method that even makes sense when debating comic book characters, and even then, you have to be able to objectively declare what's PIS and what's not.
Batman soloing the JLA = PIS.
Thor fighting beings with explicit superspeed and not being overwhelmingly disadvantaged = Not PIS.
But I digress. There's this irrational stigma that speed and speed alone gets a pass for extrapolation and baseless claims with no on panel evidence or examples to cite from most of the time and that speed is "god."
That's ridiculous.
And Thor already has the means to railroad most heralds and he doesn't need speed to do it.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
No, PIS is PIS, regardless of how many times it happens. Batman's punked out Kal-El and various other JLAers through out his career. It's on panel, it's happened and more than once. It's still raging PIS.Characters like Thor, who have tried and true instances of actually keeping up in battle against super-speedsters as well as the means to tag a fast being outside of just being in the right place and the right time, tagging people like Superman or analogues like him doesn't qualify as PIS. And I specifically cited it's an issue for him in my previous posts and that it gives an opponent an edge, so I'm not sure where most of this is coming from. It's consistent with his history and considering Thor can move Mjolnir at speeds far greater than light, there's nothing wrong with it. Furthermore, if I was exclusively using Thor's high end feats, well, frankly, this would be a massacre against Gladiator. And I also stated why using high end only feats is stupid as shit in my previous posts, anyway.
I also find it funny that every time Superman or Flash don't move at speeds far beyond light, it's somehow wrong or PIS, but their high end feats...aren't? This might not be a popular thought, but maybe the inverse is true? Perhaps it's the high end feats that are far from the norm. Hell, we know for a fact that Superman doesn't consistently operate at light-speeds, especially in an inhabited atmosphere. Obviously, I don't think Superman's high end feats are nessacarily PIS, but it's strange how anything except those feats gets written off. Averaging things out is the only method that even makes sense when debating comic book characters, and even then, you have to be able to objectively declare what's PIS and what's not.
Batman soloing the JLA = PIS.
Thor fighting beings with explicit superspeed and not being overwhelmingly disadvantaged = Not PIS.
But I digress. There's this irrational stigma that speed and speed alone gets a pass for extrapolation and baseless claims with no on panel evidence or examples to cite from most of the time and that speed is "god."
That's ridiculous.
And Thor already has the means to railroad most heralds and he doesn't need speed to do it.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Hehe, actually Batman has never defeated superman on panel in canon. Justice league can go to hell for I care.:tongue:. Oh, I never said thor tagging speedsters is PIS, just that it's not normal for him to do so. You can deny it all you want but thor has some very low showing against speed. Just as you can prove them PIS with his high showings in speed, someone can prove his high showings in speed PIS using his low ones which is frankly much easier because people tag speedsters all the time. I want to say high heralds or do you think thor railroads Kal?
He's embarrassed Kal to degrees that I'd say fall into PIS territory, plot device weakness exploitation or no. Batgod's the king of PIS.
The thing is, though? It is normal for him to do so. He's hit literally every single speedster he's fought. And he's outright beaten most of them. And yes, they did use their speed in combat. Perhaps not the unstoppable DBZ style speed blitz combo to KO, but hell, since that method's never been used in comics to the degrees people claim, I could give a shit. They or anyone else wants to have their argument taken seriously? Post some examples of this technique in action. I'm pretty sure if it was the be-all end-all road to victory people claim it is, we would have seen it in action at least once.
Further more, and I'm not sure you understand this, but Thor isn't limited to just swinging aimlessly with Mjolnir or his fists. He literally does not have to directly hit an opponent with physical means, not when he can omniblast from all directions, summon storms, and has a weapon capable of homing in on a target. And they're all things he's done on panel and more than once. And if you go purely on reflexes and not take into account his plethora of abilities, he still has the feats needed to argue the point.
People citing examples of lesser foes troubling Thor with their speed doesn't invalidate Thor's history of battling Superman/flying brick archetypes and outright beating them. And the argument, "Well, they didn't use their speed because the writer wanted Thor to go over" is a weak one.
Thor isn't some random street level guy with kung fu jobber aura that tags speedsters. He's a high herald with feats expliclitly showing him contending with super speedsters as well as having a powerset and weapon that outright makes up in dividends against his lack of speed. Which has never been damning against his speedier peers.
Thor doesn't railroad Kal. Neither does Kal railroad Thor. They're the two top beings in their respective universes, with people like GL and the Surfer not far behind.
Originally posted by h1a8alrighty i'm back.
Decent feat, but not as fast as Glad could possibly move.
Not a speed feat. Thor hit the ground. Smart move as Quicksilver can't fly.Again not much of a speed feat. Hermes wasn't going that fast and plus who cares if Thor can chase someone down. That has nothing to do with battle speed. Thor can reach FTL speeds if he takes time to reach those speeds.
Boo. Moves like the wind means that she is slow as hell (in comparison to light speeds).
Nothing you shown was impressive or shows Thor embarrassing a speedster while the speedster is using speed.
Boooooo.
There is no way Thor can defend against Glads fighting at super speed from up close. Thor might be able to defend a single attack if Glads tries to rush from a long distance. But other than that Thor is at a disadvantage.
Well if we are going to go into the possibles then I can say Thor from the get go releases a huge amount of godly energy like when he did against Durak. At the very least stunning Gladiator. Then he throws his hammer at many times ftl and takes him out right there. On average Gladiator wont be moving much faster then that in a fight. And Thor has shown he has the means to counter it. I'd like for you to pointo to an instance where Gladiator shows some sort of combo to KO against anyone Thor's level.
QS was fast enough to dodge lightning bolts like they were nothing. Its hardly to much for him to have just ran a litle farther and popped up around Thor. Its not like his blow leveled the entire building. Only a part where QS was standing basically. QS just couldnt react is all. And Thor had him by the throat almost before he hit the ground. Thor is very fast when he wants to be.
Why did you think he wasnt going very fast? He's the god of speed. We assume he's using said speed unless there's something obviously showing he's not . Besides he was able to catch him by the ankle. Not exactly slow. And in the second scan he took him off his chariot while being rushed. That would be considered combat speed.
Meh. She was moving pretty fast.
Why not? Swinging his hammer is not the only way to counter someone. And assuming Gladiator in a fight will immediately just go onto a full on bltiz rush is reaching. If you say that I say Thor from the get go launches his hammer at incredible speeds at him. Or erupts with a huge burst of lightning leveling everything in the vicinity. Or creates and impenetrable shield around him while he bombards the entire planet they are fighting in with the wind of a thousand worlds. But I wont. Because Thor doesnt do that. At least not on an average portrayal. And gladiator doesnt do the whole immediate ftl blitz either.
In conclusion: Thor can hit Gladiator. He's got what it takes to do it and he will.
NOW ON TOPIC: In a slugfest where they stand there and hit each other Thor wins also. At least more than vice versa.
Originally posted by zopzopYou right about the first scan. The second one shows Thor dodging a from behind attack of Hermes and then countering his rush. He still needed the reflezes to be able to take him off his chariot like that.
Wasn't Thor in flight and chasing Hermes in the first scan and charging right at him in flight again in the second scan? Isn't this a Mjolnir flight speed feat and not Thor combat/reflex speed feat? Or am I missing something?
I seem to notice a lot of people tend to use the "Spiderman Vs Masterson Thor fight" and the "Mongoose incident" to state speed will overwhelm Thor.The problem of using this arguments are too flawed.
First Off The Spiderman Vs Masterson Thor can't be used since Spidey isn't even fighting the real Thor.Herc humiliated Spidey in their confrontation.One could say Herc pulled this off because of experience.So the real Thor would have probably done the same thing Herc did to Spidey.Not to mention using Spidey(an Agility based Character) isn't gonna workout comparing speedsters.Because Agility requires Flexibility of Body.And I doubt Gladiator,Flash, or any speedsters have agility feats comparable to Spidey.Now the Mongoose incident wont work out as well.Mongoose is a character that was created that has the combination of Agility and Superspeed.Spidey was able to keep up with him for a while.This indicates Spidey's agility is slightly superior to Mongoose.But because Mongoose has superspeed which Spidey lacks.Spidey almost got killed if it weren't for Thor.So I could say Thor got overwhelmed via a combination of Mongoose's superspeed and agility.
So next time when using Mongoose or Spidey in an argument to say Speed will overcome Thor, ask them to post some agility feats from said Speedsters that is comparable to Spiderman and Mongoose.
So Thor will beat Gladiator.Even if he has Superspeed, he isn't an agility based character.
Originally posted by cdtm
I don't see a problem with any of this. 😕Higher end speedsters can still blitz Thor before he throws the hammer, though.
LOL Even if he does get blitzed, its not like he's going down that second.. He is THOR.. We're not talking about Wolverine or Spiderman here.. He can take a good Blitz.. Heck he's taken a number of shots from Odin! (And this of course assuming he wnt be able to react to a Speed Blitz even though evidence points to the contrary)..
But Blitz or not, he will certainly get a chance to throw Mjolnir, or do the Multiple Dircetional Lightning strikes, or have a thousand thousand hurricanes overwhelming his opponent, or do whatever form of attack he wants. He's just got so many options to deal with speedsters.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL Even if he does get blitzed, its not like he's going down that second.. He is THOR.. We're not talking about Wolverine or Spiderman here.. He can take a good Blitz.. Heck he's taken a number of shots from Odin! (And this of course assuming he wnt be able to react to a Speed Blitz even though evidence points to the contrary)..But Blitz or not, he will certainly get a chance to throw Mjolnir, or do the Multiple Dircetional Lightning strikes, or have a thousand thousand hurricanes overwhelming his opponent, or do whatever form of attack he wants. He's just got so many options to deal with speedsters.
Thor can't do anything if he is getting attacked well. It's not like the faster character is just going to sit there and let Thor do whatever he wants. Thor must earn the chance, in which I don't see him doing if the other character is constantly and aggressively pouring on the attack.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor at his best cannot be harmed by Gladiator.Thor at his best can easily kill Gladiator.
Thor at his best is as fast as Gladiator.
Therefore Thor stomps. I should have used H1n8's approach more often, debating this is way so much easier.
QFT.
Playing the "High End Feat War" game with Gladiator against Thor is unfair to Kallark.