Originally posted by cdtm
I don't see a problem with any of this. 😕Higher end speedsters can still blitz Thor before he throws the hammer, though.
Except Thor's reacted instantly and at lightspeeds before, so under Full Capacity, seeing as he's done it before, he'll do so again in a forum fight.
And if you don't see a problem with Thor spamming someone with nigh undodgable homing Mjolnir strikes that bounce around all over the place, I'm afraid we have a problem.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And the funny thing is that based off on panel evidence, Gladiator has NEVER speedblitzed/combo-to-ko'd anybody of worth, let alone someone on Thor's level. But because he has superspeed, we'll assume he'll do this stratagem that is hardly ever played out in comics because of "PIS".Yet, on the other hand, everything I've listed about Thor he's actually done, absurd as it all is. But we don't seriously argue him doing that kind of shit...why? Because it is absurd, shown in comics or not. That's not what he typically does, even though it's well within his ability to do so.
But speedblitzing is okay because they could probably do it....even though no one hardly ever does a blitz until someone is knocked out (because of PIS/jobbing). I guess every fight ever with a speedster is now illegitimate.
If you really want to play this game where we arbitrarily assume how a fight goes based off what someone probably could do (but has never done), you're opening up the flood gates to a bunch of inane psycho babble. There's a reason no one wants to seriously commit 100% to that train of thought and apply it across the board for all powersets based off of what's "possible".
Because it's phucking stupid.
Dude, I think most people assume that Thor is slinging heat with planet busting attacks, and homing Mjolnir throws all the while conjuring powerful storms and energy attacks...
but unlike you no else seems to think that makes him unbeatable by top of the line Heralds.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because FTL attacks and planet busting blows are too much for any character short of Skyfather! durthorDang, what's up with all these comic books?
Unfortunately, Thor has feats where he absolutely decimates heralds so unless you have feats on par with that (ie. Superman), you'll have to be a Skyfather level being to hang with a "full capacity" Thor.
Energy blasts? Pfft, Thor wades through Odin's blasts and is only KO'd by Celestials firing at him. And that's if he's generous enough to tank them. He can absorb shit capable of wiping out galaxies.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Dude, I think most people assume that Thor is slinging heat with planet busting attacks, and homing Mjolnir throws all the while conjuring powerful storms and energy attacks...but unlike you no else seems to think that makes him unbeatable by top of the line Heralds.
😬
The issue is that I don't think Thor is unbeatable by top end heralds AT ALL.
That's the whole point.
As much as I like and respect Thor, I would never seriously argue him curbing everyone under Skyfather, let alone use his highest of the high end feats as some kind of norm for him in a forum battle. The speed thing? It's the exact same thing only Thor, for example, actually has feats of him doing these insane things. I've yet to see some actual instances of the mythical unstoppable speedblitz combo-to-ko theory, but it someone becomes a valid technique because people think it's possible albeit it never happening ever?
That's ridiculous.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Unfortunately, Thor has feats where he absolutely decimates heralds so unless you have feats on par with that (ie. Superman), you'll have to be a Skyfather level being to hang with a "full capacity" Thor.Energy blasts? Pfft, Thor wades through Odin's blasts and is only KO'd by Celestials firing at him. And that's if he's generous enough to tank them. He can absorb shit capable of wiping out galaxies.
Tweek the names and feats around slightly and you could just as easily be talking about Surfer, or Superman, or Hal, or Genis-Vell or anyone of many top of the line Heralds.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Tweek the names and feats around slightly and you could just as easily be talking about Surfer, or Superman, or Hal, or Genis-Vell or anyone of many top of the line Heralds.
Obviously.
Which brings us to a slippery slope if we start basically making up unlikely scenarios based on exclusively high end feats, or worse, make shit up based off what they could probably do in spite of it never happening.
If you do that, you mean as well just debate powersets instead of the characters using them. And if you do go that route, the forums will become infinitely more retarded.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
😬The issue is that I don't think Thor is unbeatable by top end heralds AT ALL.
That's the whole point.
As much as I like and respect Thor, I would never seriously argue him curbing everyone under Skyfather, let alone use his highest of the high end feats as some kind of norm for him in a forum battle. The speed thing? It's the exact same thing only Thor, for example, actually has feats of him doing these insane things. I've yet to see some actual instances of the mythical unstoppable speedblitz combo-to-ko theory, but it someone becomes a valid technique because people think it's possible albeit it never happening ever?
That's ridiculous.
I understand that you believe there is a double standard with speed compared to other types of abilities on the forum, but I don't see that as the case at all. You don't feel we are already affording Thor the same privilege with his power set as we are Gladiator with his speed? I mean, nine times out of ten Thor forgets he is anything more than a brawler and merely goes out to bang with Mjolnir... but we don't limit him to that on the forum. Very few people would make the argument that in a forum fight Thor will decide to limit himself strictly to a melee slug-fest even though he pretty much does it every time they fight. I feel like Thor gets the same benefit Glad's does, just with different abilities, and honestly most of the stuff you've mentioned for Thor kind of tounge-in-cheek to illustrate your point ready gets mentioned routinely in these Thor threads as it is.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Obviously.Which brings us to a slippery slope if we start basically making up unlikely scenarios based on exclusively high end feats, or worse, make shit up based off what they could probably do in spite of it never happening.
If you do that, you mean as well just debate powersets instead of the characters using them. And if you do go that route, the forums will become infinitely more retarded.
Agreed.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I understand that you believe there is a double standard with speed compared to other types of abilities on the forum, but I don't see that as the case at all. You don't feel we are already affording Thor the same privilege with his power set as we are Gladiator with his speed? I mean, nine times out of ten Thor forgets he is anything more than a brawler and merely goes out to bang with Mjolnir... but we don't limit him to that on the forum. Hell, it seems to me like most of the stuff you've mentioned for Thor kind of tounge-in-cheek to illustrate your point all ready gets mentioned routinely in these Thor threads as it is.
I, for one, don't seriously attempt to bring in Thor's Godblast or planetary level storms as what Thor normally does. Nor do I think he'll toss Mjolnir, mentally command it to home in on his opponent and watch as the hammer obliterates them from all sides and angles. Nor do I think that unless you're a bloodlusted skyfather being, Thor's going to no-sell your best efforts. And I certainly don't think that any and all energy based attacks are doomed to instant failure based on what Mjolnir has absorbed in moments.
It's ridiculous. Even as a Thor fan, I know that's wildly improbable based on his nature. But it's all shit he's done before, on panel.
So, I guess, under Full Capacity and citing exclusive high end feats, he's going to obliterate the living shit out of people he'd normally struggle with. Which strikes me as wrong.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I, for one, don't seriously attempt to bring in Thor's Godblast or planetary level storms as what Thor normally does. Nor do I think he'll toss Mjolnir, mentally command it to home in on his opponent and watch as the hammer obliterates them from all sides and angles. Nor do I think that unless you're a bloodlusted skyfather being, Thor's going to no-sell your best efforts. And I certainly don't think that any and all energy based attacks are doomed to instant failure based on what Mjolnir has absorbed in moments.It's ridiculous. Even as a Thor fan, I know that's wildly improbable based on his nature. But it's all shit he's done before, on panel.
So, I guess, under Full Capacity and citing exclusive high end feats, he's going to obliterate the living shit out of people he'd normally struggle with. Which strikes me as wrong.
You've never been in a Surfer debate, have you.
Originally posted by -Pr-
You've never been in a Surfer debate, have you.
Oh, I have, and ironically, Surfer/Thor ones at that. And Surfer/Superman ones, too.
It's a bunch of nonsense. Surfer's got an open ended powerset, sure. But I'm not going to write every time he didn't devolve someone or trap them in his board or use his cosmic awareness to instantly deduce a weakness as PIS.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I, for one, don't seriously attempt to bring in Thor's Godblast or planetary level storms as what Thor normally does. Nor do I think he'll toss Mjolnir, mentally command it to home in on his opponent and watch as the hammer obliterates them from all sides and angles. Nor do I think that unless you're a bloodlusted skyfather being, Thor's going to no-sell your best efforts. And I certainly don't think that any and all energy based attacks are doomed to instant failure based on what Mjolnir has absorbed in moments.It's ridiculous. Even as a Thor fan, I know that's wildly improbable based on his nature. But it's all shit he's done before, on panel.
So, I guess, under Full Capacity and citing exclusive high end feats, he's going to obliterate the living shit out of people he'd normally struggle with. Which strikes me as wrong.
You might not, but plenty of other posters freely cite those types of examples.
My view is that we go with the base line average to determine a character's overall attributes for purpose of debating, dropping the really high feats and the really low feats, so what you are mentioning is the type of stuff I would largely ignore unless someone brought up an equally ridiculous feat for the other character. Like bone claw Wolverine tanking a nuke, surviving a trip to the sun, climbing out of a vat of molten metal, or having a nuclear reactor vent on top of him with no ill effect and then him walking around burning so hot that he melts steel on contact ect ect ect, unless someone cites something absurd I pretend that stuff never happened.
Do view Gladiator's super speed in that context?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
My view is that we go with the base line average to determine a character's overall attributes for purpose of debating, dropping the really high feats and the really low feats, so that is the type of stuff I would largely ignore unless someone brought up an equally ridiculous feat for the other character. Like bone claw Wolverine tanking a nuke, surviving a trip to the sun, climbing out of a vat of molten metal, or having a nuclear reactor vent on top of him with no ill effect and then him walking around burning so hot that he melts steel on contact ect ect ect.Do view Gladiator's super speed in that context?
It's unfortunate that a bunch of zealous Thor fans or "Thorbags" think Thor is this grossly overpowered herald who's leagues beyond Hulk, Surfer, or Superman. And it's unfortunate that each of those characters in turn have fans who do the same thing, but it is what it is. Personally, I try hard not to play the high end feat game.
But, yes, I more or less view speed as an "average" baseline kind of thing.
I view his speed, and the speed of other flying bricks, as what it's been consistently portrayed as when opposed to Thor. They typically are fast enough to strike Thor once or even a few times, but not so overwhelmingly fast that Thor simply can't strike back, which he's done against foes flying directly at him. It's an edge, nothing more. And that's when compared against Thor's base reflexes, which while they do vary from time to time, ensure he's not out of his element against a foe of that archetype. Taking into account his means to attack from multiple directions instantly, defend from said directions, and control the battle field environment through weather control, and I'd say sheer speed in of itself isn't an auto-win against Thor. It never has been. And the comics support that.
In a forum fight, I don't think a character is going to suddenly drastically turn into some shell of their former self and start doing shit they've never done before because of PIS or the writer jobbing them out for the sake of a good story. And frankly, the people who do believe that are deluding themselves something fierce.
At absolute best, Gladiator's (or Hyperion's or Majestic's or Superman's, etc) speed will be an issue for Thor. They certainly won't be able to indefinitely tag him without fear of being tagged back nor will they "combo-to-ko" him before Thor retailiates. That's the reality of the situation. And in a typical confrontation, Thor's reflexes or powers or Mjolnir or whatever you want to cite it being will enable him to attack and counter-attack.
You can't label that as PIS if Thor has a history of doing it, but somehow try to seriously argue that him struggling with people with only human speed is the norm while in the same breath say he's going to be speedblitzed by someone who hardly ever uses speedblitzes, let alone at the speeds they're being cited as going in a forum fight. Not only is it hypocritical, but it's a shaky and ultimately ridiculous stance to take if you decide to apply it wholesale against all powers.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
My view is that we go with the base line average to determine a character's overall attributes for purpose of debating, dropping the really high feats and the really low feats, so what you are mentioning is the type of stuff I would largely ignore unless someone brought up an equally ridiculous feat for the other character.
That's generally how you're expected to do it, too.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It's unfortunate that a bunch of zealous Thor fans or "Thorbags" think Thor is this grossly overpowered herald who's leagues beyond Hulk, Surfer, or Superman. And it's unfortunate that each of those characters in turn have fans who do the same thing, but it is what it is. Personally, I try hard not to play the high end feat game.But, yes, I more or less view speed as an "average" baseline kind of thing.
I view his speed, and the speed of other flying bricks, as what it's been consistently portrayed as when opposed to Thor. They typically are fast enough to strike Thor once or even a few times, but not so overwhelmingly fast that Thor simply can't strike back, which he's done against foes flying directly at him. It's an edge, nothing more. And that's when compared against Thor's base reflexes, which while they do vary from time to time, ensure he's not out of his element against a foe of that archetype. Taking into account his means to attack from multiple directions instantly, defend from said directions, and control the battle field environment through weather control, and I'd say sheer speed in of itself isn't an auto-win against Thor. It never has been. And the comics support that.
In a forum fight, I don't think a character is going to suddenly drastically turn into some shell of their former self and start doing shit they've never done before because of PIS or the writer jobbing them out for the sake of a good story. And frankly, the people who do believe that are deluding themselves something fierce.
At absolute best, Gladiator's (or Hyperion's or Majestic's or Superman's, etc) speed will be an issue for Thor. They certainly won't be able to indefinitely tag him without fear of being tagged back nor will they "combo-to-ko" him before Thor retailiates. That's the reality of the situation. And in a typical confrontation, Thor's reflexes or powers or Mjolnir or whatever you want to cite it being will enable him to attack and counter-attack.
You can't label that as PIS if Thor has a history of doing it, but somehow try to seriously argue that him struggling with people with only human speed is the norm while in the same breath say he's going to be speedblitzed by someone who hardly ever uses speedblitzes, let alone at the speeds they're being cited as going in a forum fight. Not only is it hypocritical, but it's a shaky and ultimately ridiculous stance to take if you decide to apply it wholesale against all powers.
Seems reasonable enough, I think we are largely on the same page.
Out of curiosity do you feel the same way about Hulk's odds of tagging Superman / Glads / Hyperion?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Seems reasonable enough, I think we are largely on the same page.Out of curiosity do you feel the same way about Hulk's odds of tagging Superman / Glads / Hyperion?
👆
And yeah, I do. Granted, I think Thor has better instances of tagging said foes and also has more options at his disposal than striking out with a single blow or punch, but I think it's an edge - a greater one as opposed to Thor - against Hulk, nothing more, especially after reading more on Hulk.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
👆And yeah, I do. Granted, I think Thor has better instances of tagging said foes and also has more options at his disposal than striking out with a single blow or punch, but I think it's an edge - a greater one as opposed to Thor - against Hulk, nothing more, especially after reading more on Hulk.
Fair enough. I personally would give Superman an nearly insurmountable speed advantage over either of them, but I can understand and appreciate where you are coming from with your opinion. Objectively characters like Superman or Glads use their speed in combat sparingly, and routinely get into exchanges with much slower characters who don't seem to be at a sizable disadvantage but I'm not ready to ignoring it yet... even though in the long run I suppose I end up ignoring more examples of those characters fighting standard speed bricks then they have in speed feats.
🙁
So jake, are you implying that characters who have no superspeed but have tagged speedsters on many ocassions should be given the benefit of doubt? If that's your reasoning then at least half the characters in DCU are able to tag superman and at least 25% of MU has spidey level speed. This is just a cop out, you know writers would be jobless if they portray superman,flash and others as untouchable. I am not denying thor's capacity to tag people faster than him, but speed has always been a problem with thor. You are doing exactly what you were against in previous posts, taking thor's high end feats for speed throughout his history and passing it like his norm. Thor is a high herald only because of his lack of speed, give him true speed and he would railroad any herald.