Originally posted by Korto VosA quan is happens once in an entire generation. He leads by example and doesn't ever give into peer pressure. He fights for what is right and may come off as a bit harsh for all his subjects benefits.
What exactly is a "quan" and what constitutes a quan being "far and benevolent" since you are completely opposite of that huhu?
Originally posted by PlacidityI pretty much agree with this post and have always supported the idea just because in the lotr universe only mount doom can destroy it this doesn't necessarily count for all other movie universes. With that being said I still don't believe it cuts through the magical ring based on Gandalf's power in the movies and his acceptance of not being able to destroy it yet slay a Balrog.
I disagree with this.Elrond said what he thought to be true.
It may well have been virtually indestructible in his universe, but could possibly be destroyed by other means:
- A power greater than Sauron, he didn't know about.
- Physical powers he did not know about, e.g The heat of the sun, a Black Hole.
- In the same vein Greater physical powers outside of LOTRU Elrond had not even contemplated, e.g PC Superman.
- Greater magical powers outside the LOTR Universe.
In conclusion, what a character claims in a film, may not be the be all and end all in MVF.
That said, I do believe that the level of magic that protects the ring would've been very high, enough to protect it from the heat of a light saber.
The thing about magic is sometimes people assume it transcends everything. When you consider the whole movie multiverse, then that belief becomes quite dubious. Magic has its limits too IMO, even against physical forces great enough. The Juggernaut is a good example. He is powered by magic and is likely believed to be "unstoppable", but we know he has been stopped, by magical powers greater than he, or physical forces that surpass the limits of his magic. The only thing I would say is supreme with certainty would be an omniscient, omnipotent being - i.e God.
I think the saber can cut through metal railways but can't cut through this. It's just an opinion type thread there's no real way to prove or disprove it. Entirely subjective.
Originally posted by Placidity
I disagree with this.Elrond said what he thought to be true.
It may well have been virtually indestructible in his universe, but could possibly be destroyed by other means:
- A power greater than Sauron, he didn't know about.
- Physical powers he did not know about, e.g The heat of the sun, a Black Hole.
- In the same vein Greater physical powers outside of LOTRU Elrond had not even contemplated, e.g PC Superman.
- Greater magical powers outside the LOTR Universe.
In conclusion, what a character claims in a film, may not be the be all and end all in MVF.
That said, I do believe that the level of magic that protects the ring would've been very high, enough to protect it from the heat of a light saber.
The thing about magic is sometimes people assume it transcends everything. When you consider the whole movie multiverse, then that belief becomes quite dubious. Magic has its limits too IMO, even against physical forces great enough. The Juggernaut is a good example. He is powered by magic and is likely believed to be "unstoppable", but we know he has been stopped, by magical powers greater than he, or physical forces that surpass the limits of his magic. The only thing I would say is supreme with certainty would be an omniscient, omnipotent being - i.e God.
This commits the limits fallacy.
It is applying limits to the durability to the ring that did not exist, at all. Arbitrarily applying or implying baseless limits have no solid ground and cannot be used in any reasonable discussion. For the purposes of the MVF, the only thing usable is Mount Doom.
In a place that is not a versus forum, you can baseless speculate.
Edit - Your post would have a place if you start a thread with "Assume that a lightsaber can cut the One Ring"... Obviously, that's not supportable with any sort of facts...but it is a potential way to start a thread.
Strangly I don't think Impediment was the only frunk person last night.
Originally posted by dadudemon
1. This isn't a fight.
And yet it is in the versus forum.
Originally posted by dadudemon
2. He cited direct quotes from the movies as evidence.
Which has been refuted.
Originally posted by dadudemon
3. As you can see further down in the thread, it is not really debatable.
Yes is it, hence why we are debating it.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I know this.However, you COULD prove you point by also proving that there is only one Volcano in all of middle earth. 🙂
Then why ask me to prove the exact opposite?
'No, you need to point out that there IS another volcano'
Again I voice my suspicions that you were inebriated.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Then my point would still be right, no matter what you came up with...which you know already.However, it would lead your argument a bit more credibility: the reason they had to use that Volcano was because it was the ONLY volcano.
No you wouldn't be and no I don't. I'm not the kind to argue just for the sake of arguing when its obvious I can't win. You are wrong here, hence our disagreement.
Indeed.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Uhhh...no. That's absurdly non-sequitur of you.
That is exactly what you said.
'the reason they had to use that Volcano was because it was the ONLY volcano.' (Sauron used it because it was the only volcano)
'Sauron didn't forge it in there because it was a 'magical volcano' (again, lol), but because it was a volcano period.' (Sauron used it because it was the only volcano)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Already did. Suck it.
Gandalf or Elrond's opinions are not proof, you cretin. This has been explained in the thread very succintly by The Dread Lord Blax.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I didn't even bother reading what you said this to because no matter what it is, it contradicts me and everything I stated is correct (minus the portions where I'm clearly speculating...)
Ok, now I know you're trolling.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I see what you're saying, now.You missed the point entirely...and that's just hilarious because I clearly explained my direction in the post you are responding to.
You forgot about this part:
"you need to point out that there IS another volcano because you're the one claiming that it was the heat from the volcano and that any volcano would have done (or heat), not just Mount Doom. Or did you forget the part where you asked about Mount Doom being "magical?"
"If you do so, then you not only prove yourself wrong, you prove me right. If you find that no other volcanoes exist then you could still be right."
Again I find myself bewildered as to your contradictions and questioning as to your state of mind. Please Great DDM, explain to this humble servant in small words the meaning behind your heady logic. I fear my tiny peasant brain is not up to the task of understanding it presently.
What I'm getting is:
1) I need to prove there IS other volcano's.
2) This will prove that any volcano would have done, not just Mount Doom.
3) This will prove me wrong and you right.
4) But if I prove that there aren't any volcano's I might still be right.
Originally posted by dadudemon
You're obviously both because I was quite clear:"you need to point out that there IS another volcano because you're the one claiming that it was the heat from the volcano and that any volcano would have done (or heat), not just Mount Doom. Or did you forget the part where you asked about Mount Doom being "magical?"
"If you do so, then you not only prove yourself wrong, you prove me right. If you find that no other volcanoes exist then you could still be right."
Originally posted by dadudemon
You're the one claiming that it was just the heat needed (obviously wrong and incontestable by movie canon) so you just need to prove that Mount Doom was the only volcano so you can prove your point.
Its the only one on the map that we see at the start of Fellowship of the Ring and its the only one we see all through the movies. Therefore it is the only volcano seen in the Lord of the Rings movies. Therefore it is the only volcano known.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I also like how you twisted my words into "I can't prove a negative...rawr!" lol No, you're not proving a negative, you're proving that Mount Doom was unique in middle earth.
Well no, your logic is flawed here. You see, its impossibe to prove definitively that something does not exist. Have you ever heard of the Flying Spagetti Monster, and the argument behind it? Its the same basic principle. If I can't prove that other volcano's don't exist then they MUST exist. This is a logical fallacy. I can't prove that theres no other volcano's beyond pointing you to a map. However, since there is no evidence of other volcano's other than Mount Doom, I win automatically.
We know Mount Doom exists. We don't know whether or not other volcano's exist. We can neither prove that they do or do not. Therefore the entire possibility of other volcano's is a moot point. So I win. 😉
Originally posted by dadudemon
Back on topic, you're just plain wrong because I KNOW that there are other Volcanoes in the LotR universe.
Well I KNOW there aren't. SO THERE! NEENER NEENER NEENER!
'Knowing' that your right, is not acceptable evidence in a debate.
Originally posted by dadudemon
You don't want to try and prove your point about just needing a volcano for heat because you'd end up proving yourself horribly wrong on all accounts. So why would a person want to prove himself wrong?
I ask myself that while trying to look at your retarded-ass arguments.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Simple: Read #1 for why we even went down this path (hint, it applies to you)
aAM8iz4QJgI&feature=related
Originally posted by Nephthys
It resisted an [b]axe. 😬CLEARLY IT IS INVINCIBLE! 🙄 [/B]
You're being difficult, and that wasn't his point; you know that.
-The ring has shown to not heat up to what we can safely assume was a normal wood fire.
-The ring was completely unharmed by a blow from an axe and also caused a small explosion or shock as a result, if iirc.
-Gandalf specifically said it had to be destroyed where it was forged. Not "any volcano will do."
-It was destroyed in a couple minutes in a volcano, the volcano where it was forged.
Those four points tell us that the ring has special resistances and stipulations on how it can be destroyed and they don't support a "just apply X amount of heat" angle .
ie Lightsabre > volcano won't do it here, considering we're dealing with magic.
I find it interesting that people continue to argue againgst my post that even in the Movie Multiverse, "Mount Doom" is the only thing that can destroy the Ring. Clearly some people did not grasp the logic I was putting across.
So, for example, the greatest magicians and skyfather/transcedent level beings (who could blink Sauron out of existence) from the comics couldn't undo the ring?
An even more irrefutable example which I already mentioned - a omnipotent depiction of God from another film, couldn't undo the ring? Please.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Strangly I don't think Impediment was the only frunk person last night.
derpy derpy doooo! peaches
Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet it is in the versus forum..
And yet, this doesn't contradict what I said.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which has been refuted.
Which it has not been refuted in any legitimate way. Do better than "nuh uhhh".
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes is it, hence why we are debating it.
Not it isn't: we have a bunch of haters being idiots which is why there are posts. It is not debateable but only to those who are being willfully ignorant. derpy derpy dooo!
Originally posted by Nephthys
Then why ask me to prove the exact opposite?.
I didn't. Suck it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
'No, you need to point out that there IS another volcano'Again I voice my suspicions that you were inebriated?
You are creating a false delima and I've explained how. Try harder, please.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No you wouldn't be and no I don't. I'm not the kind to argue just for the sake of arguing when its obvious I can't win. You are wrong here, hence our disagreement.Indeed.
Yes I would and you do because you've proven so in pasts post at me.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That is exactly what you said.'the reason they had to use that Volcano was because it was the ONLY volcano.' (Sauron used it because it was the only volcano)
'Sauron didn't forge it in there because it was a 'magical volcano' (again, lol), but because it was a volcano period.' (Sauron used it because it was the only volcano)
Please troll harder:
When I am representing your argument, you cannot try and pass it off as my argument.
Please go back and read the entire section you have taken out of context:
You said:
"I don't know why I would try to prove that there are other volcano's given that I pretty heavily implied I didn't think there were other ones."
To which I said:
"Then my point would still be right, no matter what you came up with...which you know already.
However, it would lead your argument a bit more credibility: the reason they had to use that Volcano was because it was the ONLY volcano."
To make it clearer for you....
You want to why you should prove that there are other volcanoes or just the one volcano.
Your argument could be supported in the following way IF you did so because..."the reason they had to use that Volcano was because it was the ONLY volcano."
That position is not true, which I already knew from the onset. However, you asked "why" and I told you why.
So, please, leave the trolling to the trolls and think a bit more before you post someone's words.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Gandalf or Elrond's opinions are not proof, you cretin. This has been explained in the thread very succintly by The Dread Lord Blax.
They are proof and it was confirmed. If you want to hold the position that something hot enough, when Gandalf clearly explained that not even the most powerful dragon's breath could undo the ring (but only Mount Doom), go ahead: it's a baseless position to contradict the canon books.
It's also baselesss to say, "Derpy do! Lite Saberz totally reckers teh ring! dur" since that contradicts actual canon in both the movies and the books. Heat is not sufficient: only the fires of Mount Doom are...because Mount Doom is magical and ALSO magically tied to Sauron.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok, now I [b]know you're trolling.[/B]
No, it's the truth. At that point in the thread, there was no legitimate way to contradict me EXCEPT for the very explicit portions that I had speculated.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Again I find myself bewildered as to your contradictions and questioning as to your state of mind.
Look, another "you're an idiot and drunk" joke. It wasn't funny the first time.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Please Great DDM, explain to this humble servant in small words the meaning behind your heady logic. I fear my tiny peasant brain is not up to the task of understanding it presently.
That much is obvious.
What I'm getting is:
Originally posted by Nephthys
1) I need to prove there IS other volcano's.
I will throw you one and only one bone:
thangorodrim.
Originally posted by Nephthys
2) This will prove that any volcano would have done, not just Mount Doom.
That's up to you, not me.
We already have "proof" that only the fires of Mount Doom can undo the one ring because that's where Sauron forged it (aka, magical volcano that is magically tied to the ring).
Originally posted by Nephthys
3) This will prove me wrong and you right.
It will not: you've been proven wrong, already, without the need of invoking other volcanoes, which the burden is on YOU to do, not me.
Originally posted by Nephthys
4) But if I prove that there aren't any volcano's I might still be right.
No, you'd still be wrong. I just said that your position my be more credible if there were other volcanos: it is still wrong, however.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its the only one on the map that we see at the start of Fellowship of the Ring and its the only one we see all through the movies. Therefore it is the only volcano seen in the Lord of the Rings movies. Therefore it is the only volcano known.
Because that map covers the entirety of the entire Earth, right? dur
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well no, your logic is flawed here. You see, its impossibe to prove definitively that something [b]does not exist..[/B]
Wrong: by proving that Mount Doom is unique, you have proven the position of 'no other volcanoes exist and Mount Doom HAD to be used". Proving uniqueness is not proving "nothing."
That burden was on you because YOU'RE the one that claimed "any ol' Volcano could have worked, dewd!" O really? Prove that Mount Doom was the ONLY Volcano in Middle-Earth. 🙂
In order to hold that position, you would have to have proven that it was the only Volcano around. It obviously was not. Why go through the ultra-hard journey through Mordor if they could have just taken a much easier path to another Volcano? "Because it was farther away, RAWR!" But that still does not answer the question I posed: it would have been far easier to travel 1000 miles; to an easy to reach, unprotected by tens of thousand of enemy troops, and the all seeing Eye of Sauron; than it would to have travled the hundreds of miles that the hobbits did.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Have you ever heard of the Flying Spagetti Monster, and the argument behind it? Its the same basic principle. If I can't prove that other volcano's don't exist then they MUST exist. This is a logical fallacy. I can't prove that theres no other volcano's beyond pointing you to a map. However, since there is no evidence of other volcano's other than Mount Doom, I win automatically.
See previous arguments for why you fail.
The position was never to prove that no volcanoes exist. It was to prove that Mount Doom was the only one.
Originally posted by Nephthys
We know Mount Doom exists. We don't know whether or not other volcano's exist. We can neither prove that they do or do not. Therefore the entire possibility of other volcano's is a moot point. So I win. 😉
See previous arguments for why you fail.
The position was never to prove that no volcanoes exist. It was to prove that Mount Doom was the only one.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I KNOW there aren't. SO THERE! NEENER NEENER NEENER!
You're wrong, suck it. 🙂
Originally posted by Nephthys
'Knowing' that your right, is not acceptable evidence in a debate.
In my case, it is. In your case, it is not.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I ask myself that while trying to look at your retarded-ass arguments.
You mean what you thought were "retarded-ass arguments" but were actually inexorable facts that you did not realize you could not contend with...but did so in blind futility.
Originally posted by Placidity
So, for example, the greatest magicians and skyfather/transcedent level beings (who could blink Sauron out of existence) from the comics couldn't undo the ring?
Correct.
Neither could they make Sauron not exist.
The powers are over their creation/multiverse, not this one.
You'd be making the claim that one "God" is more powerful than another "God".
Sauron is not destroyable: he is immortal. His soul/essence is only destroyable by his own God...and that is not even proven as we do not know of any Valar/Maiar that are permanently destroyable...they just move on to other planes when killed in Ea.
The ring is virtually a horcrux: it has only once place it can be destroyed.
That God from another universe could destroy it by teleporting it to Mount Doom or Mount Doom to it....boom...solved.
That's assuming they would even be granted power outside of their own multiverse, however. What makes you think that their powers are preserved in other Gods' realms?
Originally posted by Placidity
An even more irrefutable example which I already mentioned - a omnipotent depiction of God from another film, couldn't undo the ring? Please.
Correct.
An omnipotent being from another multiverse is magically omnipotent in a a multiverse that He or She is not part of?
Please.
Your position is unsupportable and it commits a no limits fallacy (lol). You presume that their powers have any place in a universe that they are not the supreme god of. On what grounds? Why are they preserved? Would that not be up to the discretion of the Supreme Creator of the mulitverse they step into? How did they get there? Why do you presume that the God of one multiverse is also God of another?
What you REALLY mean to say is this:
If the thread starter says that their powers are intact, then they can do whatever they want. It's all about the OP. 🙂
Case in point: Neo, The Matrix, and The Trainman. Neo wasn't the god in another "universe". The Trainman was God in his universe and he made that quite clear to Neo who tried to fight against him. 🙂
Originally posted by dadudemon
Correct.An omnipotent being from another multiverse is magically omnipotent in a a multiverse that He or She is not part of?
Please.
Your position is unsupportable and it commits a no limits fallacy (lol). You presume that their powers have any place in a universe that they are not the supreme god of. On what grounds? Why are they preserved? Would that not be up to the discretion of the Supreme Creator of the mulitverse they step into? How did they get there? Why do you presume that the God of one multiverse is also God of another?
Wrong.
Sauron is not an omnipotent being, nor is he a God, that much is clear. If we were considering two Supreme beings clashing, then you would have a point. However, my examples show an obvious and huge difference in the level of powers.
Its funny you mention no limits fallacy, because that is exactly what you have committed. Let me ask you this, could the "God" INSIDE the LOTRU destroy the Ring?
The point is when non omniscient people like Elrond make claims, they are only making claims based on the best of their knowledge, whether that is based in science, magic or anything else does not matter.
It would be the same as Stryker saying adamantium is indestructible. He is saying that best to his knowledge and what the science of his age has shown. Does that mean it is FACT? No, especially when there are forces that he had not even contemplated or could even comprehend when he or other scientists when concluded it was indestructible. 8th Day Juggernaut FROM THE SAME X-men Universe would snap adamantium in half (punches through dimensions).
Again, the main point is the claimer is NOT omniscient, it has nothing to do with powers being preserved across multiverses, quite frankly I don't see how you could have twisted my arguments into something so unrecognizable.
If you applied some simple logic you would understand what I am saying - just because someone says something he believes is true, does not necessarily mean it is unless the character is omniscient. That also doesn't mean it can't be true. That IS the point.
Sauron could be destroyed DDD, just the concept of evil itself as personified by his boss Melkor/Morgoth would remain in existence until the Final Battle (think Ragnarok meets the Christian concept of the Final Judgment) whereupon Beren, a simple human, would slay him once and for all.
You don't need to be an omnipotent being to unmake an artifact made by a being who has no feats to suggest he's even on the level of someone like Dr Strange...
I personally don't think that the lightsaber would harm the ring. But I'm not going to try to base this on any logical principle, any "no-limits" or "limits" fallacy.
I just feel like the Ring>Lightsaber and if that isn't sufficient I'll just point out that within its own Universe the lightsaber is not an end-all-be-all cutting tool and there are several materials that can frustrate or outright defeat it.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Sauron could be destroyed DDD, just the concept of evil itself as personified by his boss Melkor/Morgoth would remain in existence until the Final Battle (think Ragnarok meets the Christian concept of the Final Judgment) whereupon Beren, a simple human, would slay him once and for all.
It was Turin, not Beren ;P