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Originally posted by Galan007
I Franklin (amped) killed one of the Celestials. Franklin resurrects Galactus. Galactus kills one of the Celestials, and blasts a hole in the final one. Franklin (unamped) preforms a kamikaze on the final Celestial.
Nice observation. The art is ok but can be misleading a bit without much dialogue between Frank & the Celestials.
I guess it can be acknowledged that if Frank remained amped, he could've stomped all 3 by himself. Nice to see Big G get some payback though.
Originally posted by SundippedThe 3 individually? Maybe. The 3 together? No way in hell.
I guess it can be acknowledged that if Frank remained amped, he could've stomped all 3 by himself.
Frank, quite literally, needed Galactus' awesomeness to come out on top--and even then he still had to 'die' to get the job done. The mad Celestials were insanely powerful.
Originally posted by Galan007
The 3 individually? Maybe. The 3 together? No way in hell.Frank, quite literally, needed Galactus' awesomeness to come out on top--and even then he still had to 'die' to get the job done. The mad Celestials were insanely powerful.
Yeah individually is what I meant. When you tally it up, G killed 2 outright & did major damage to one. Not bad at all.
^ Yep.
I think someone in this thread already mentioned it, but it was nice to see every character involved get their 'just deserts'. No one came out looking anything less than stellar--which was a very nice change in the modern world of comics where derogatory remarks and 'cosmic headbutts' are the end-all/be-all.
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Yep.I think someone in this thread already mentioned it, but it was nice to see every character involved get their 'just deserts'. No one came out looking anything less than stellar--which was a very nice change in the modern world of comics where derogatory remarks and 'cosmic headbutts' are the end-all/be-all.
👆
Nice change is a understatement. I'd rather see a being get ripped open as was shown opposed to a headbutt temporary ko.
Originally posted by Galan007
^ IF the final Celestial was more powerful than the others, the gap was marginal imo. That is why I feel that adult Franklin was using some of the power young Franklin gave him when he destroyed the first Celestial. I mean, he killed it ease. Fast-forward to the final Celestial, and [a now unamped] Franklin has to commit suicide just to get the job done.The only other explanation is that adult Franklin didn't use any of the power young Franklin gave him, and the final Celestial just happened to be SEVERAL TIMES more powerful than the others. Considering such was never stated, and that Galactus' eye-beams shredded through it without difficulty, I don't think that is the most logical interpretation out there. Like I said: if the final Celestial was THAT far beyond the others, we, the readers, would have been made aware of it as SOME point during this event.
u see..he killed it with ease..and he wasn't able to do so to the other two..i have a problem with that..u said they were all equals..if he can kill one with ease after facing two of them..he should be able to kill all..but he didn't..he kill one after taking on two..but when there's only two left..he suddenly can't beat it..WTH was that..he can't be tired after killing that one cuz he looked like he was ready for more..
Originally posted by Galan007
Considering it wasn't stated that he used "all" of the power young Franklin gave him to resurrect Galactus, I don't really think you can rule out the possibility that adult Franklin may have tapped some of it's power... Especially to destroy the first Celestial.After all, adult Franklin destroyed that first Celestial with ridiculous ease--and that was just after he took young Franklin's energies. Yet after adult Franklin used said energies to resurrect Galactus (leaving him with only his original power), he had to literally commit suicide in order to beat the last remaining Celestial. So on panel, adult Franklin /w/ young Franklin's power > adult Franklin alone.
Analogy time: if I can bench 500lbs on steroids, but can only bench 200lbs without steroids, I think it's safe to say the steroids made me stronger.
Just to be clear, I never said the possibility of Adult Franklin tapping some of Young Franklin's powers for the fight should be ruled out altogether. What I said is there isn't much evidence to support the notion -- only speculation.
Here are the facts:
1) In FF# 15, we see that Adult Franklin instructed young Franklin to conserve his power.
2) We see Young Franklin say, "I had to use some (to buy time for the other Foundation members).
3) In FF#604, we see young Franklin transfer much or all of his power to his adult counterpart. The former's powers are represented by a cosmic ball of sorts.
4) When do we see the ball again? We see him use the ball in resurrecting Galactus.
So we know for sure that Young Franklin's powers were used specifically to revive Galactus. Fact.
Does that mean Adult Franklin used some of it during the big fight? No; it does not. Sure you can make that assumption, but assumption is all it is really.
Adult Franklin is clearly quite powerful without an amp of any kind. Prior to acquiring Young Franklin's orb, how do the Celestials first react at the mere sight of him? What kind of words do they use? "Danger!" "Doom!" I don't know what language you speak, but the meaning of those particular words is pretty clear to me. It's obvious they were afraid of him. Sure, he was not able to defeat all three on his own, but he was certainly able to defeat 2 of them, which is a feat in itself. And technically, through his machinations, Franklin actually did defeat all three. He brought back his herald Galactus to help him out.
That said, if you want to make the assumption that Adult Franklin needed Young Franklin's help specifically for the fight, you're welcome to (and you obviously have). In my opinion, though, there's little concrete evidence to support that theory. It's open to interpretation.
Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
The same "drawing conclusions" bit can logically be applied to the perception that Galactus "died." The narrative in no way supports that Galactus is dead, or even hints at it: Take away the visual imagery and there's absolutely no indication that Galactus is dead or even down. This is in contrast to the whole "sad story" as bran likes to put it, for Franklin. Which is explained as follows:You're looking at Nathaniel in some kind of vacuum where he possesses the same level of knowledge as the other bystanders of the battle (Reed, Sue, rest of the FF, etc.), which is flawed logic. As stated in the narrative, Nathaniel has gone through every iteration of the battle now unfolding between Franklin and the Celestials, has manipulated events, has even directly intervened, and as stated on panel, all came to the same conclusion: Reed dies. Also explicitly stated, implied through Nathaniel's statements: Nathaniel [b]knows
, presumably through all his time travel and manipulations and going through every iteration of the confrontation (i.e., Reed will always go through the bridge to discover the Council, the Mad Celestials will ALWAYS destroy the council, Reed will ALWAYS pay the ultimate price) that Franklin CANNOT defeat the Celestials.That right there invalidates the presumption that Nathaniel is just another bystander like Reed, Black Bolt, Madusa, the Avengers, etc. who are just "watching" and happens to narrate what he perceives to be happening (he "assumed" Franklin died because of the attack. how can he reasonably "assume" when he's seen this battle before countless times and already knew the outcome of all of them prior to this one?). I argue that he's actually telling us what's happening since he has seen all possible iterations. Except THIS time, they introduced Galactus into the equation and he changed the outcome to be favorable to the Richards Family. in other words, if you read the arc from the very beginning of Hickman's run:
Adult Val and Franklin tell Sue to look to the skies, etc. when all hope is lost. Also they say "all hope lies in doom" or something to that effect (I don't remember who said it exactly, but it was mentioned 2 years ago).
Nathaniel comes back in time and starts scheming with young Val to try and save Reed from the inevitable outcome that is uniform across all permutations (Reed always dies at the hands of the Celestials, etc.) We never know what this plan is until a few issues ago
The plan was to buy enough time for Adult Val and Adult Franklin to ride the Revision Wave and then travel back in time to directly intervene in the Celestial battle (since the Celestials will always find Reed, etc). That whole process takes 27 seconds. However to the FF it's across several months or a year or whatever. The ultimate objective is to delay the Celestials long enough using several incidents:
Doom single-handed takes on the Celestials in the ruins of the Council while the rest make their escape. That delays the Celestials long enough ("all hope lies in Doom" is thus full-filled) for Reed to summon a prepped Galactus to the battle between the annihilation wave and the kree stellar armada, which he ends instantly.
Galactus and the Celestials battle, which in turn buys time for the assembly of Sol's Anvil, which destroys the combined celestial form and returns them to their three individual forms (Galactus having killed one in their initial battle).
Doom, Galactus, Sol's Anvil all buy enough time for Adult Franklin to come back. Franklin brings Galactus to the fray. Franklin loses to the Celestials without Galactus (already stated when Nathaniel says Franklin cannot beat the 3 remaining Celestials, having witnessed the battle countless times, etc.).
To sum up this long post, the plan was to use Doom, Galactus, Sol's Anvil to allow adult franklin time to battle the celestials and then re-introduce Galactus into the battle. That was the x-factor ("throughout all space and time, Galactus has had many heralds, franklin has only had one). If Galactus is on hand for every single time Franklin faces the Celestials, then the statement "throughout all space and time" would have been inaccurate.
EDIT: Also, someone mentioned that "technically" galactus only killed 1 Celestial. No, that's wrong. "Technically" he killed 2, because if we go by that flawed reasoning, then "technically" no one kills any Celestials except for Galactus if Sol's Anvil was never fired to take out the Combined Celestial, since the Combined Celestial>>>3 Celestials>Adult Franklin Richards. [/B]
Good analysis, but I take issue with one of your initial points.
First off, I agree that Nathaniel clearly knew a lot more about the unfolding events than everyone else with the exception of Adult Frank and Valeria perhaps. That's obvious. Here's the thing though. In every PREVIOUS attempt to prevent tragedy from occurring, Nathaniel has failed to save Reed correct? Indeed. However, this time it's different. Reed does not die! Due to Franklin's intervention, the events unfold differently this time. Nathaniel clearly states that it was Franklin who figured it out! The battle between Franklin and the Celestials is the ONE VARIABLE that did not occur in all those previous attempts to save Reed. Consider this. Way back in FF#582, Franklin takes away Nathaniel's ability to move through time and sends him falling towards the revision wave. Prior to falling, Nathaniel cries out, "Dammit Child1 I want to be here.. why are you taking that choice away from me?" Franklin replies, "It's Dad. See, when you collapsed every you into our reality.. When immortus commanded the great hunt and the calling of all the Nathaniel RIchardses-- and even though you didn't mean for it to happen-- You made every Reed Richards that's ever existed into an orphan. It's what's wrong with him.. it's what's wrong with all of them. Don't you understand.. Every boy deserves a father. Especially mine." He then kicks Nathaniel in the face, sending him toward the wave. Don't you see? It was Franklin whose actions deviated from his grandfather's plan. That's what made the difference here.
Originally posted by Galan007
There was nothing "obvious" about it. All of the mad Celestials were generally portrayed around the same level. I don't even recall any statements being made that their powers differed. That said, there is no reason to think the final Celestial was any more powerful than the rest--let alone THAT much more powerful (Galactus was able to physically rip through its armor, after all.)Adult Franklin had young Franklin's power when he [easily] killed the first Celestial. He did not have young Franklin's power when he killed the final Celestial, and had to preform a kamikaze/suicide attack to get the job done. Hard to imagine that just being coincidence.
Slight flaw in your logic. Adult Franklin began training young Franklin how to best use his powers right? He told him to keep it somewhere safe and to avoid using it at all costs until the time is right. Young Franklin disobeyed and used a little of his power in the first confrontation with the Celestials. Adult Franklin tells him it's okay, but hopefully there's enough left. In my opinion, Adult Franklin wouldn't risk using more of the power contained in his young counterpart's orb against the Celestials when he went to such trouble advising young Frank not to use it during training. Reviving Galactus is no easy task and Adult Franklin already knew that Young Franklin used some of his power in the first confrontation against the Celestials. Therefore, he wouldn't waste it in the battle, especially when he has power of his own.
The thing is that Galactus has huge fluctuations in power depending on how hungry or weak he is, but the Celestials are consistent with their enormous power. Plus the Celestials are extremely intelligent, so they would obviously hold off on confronting Galactus until he is weak.
Thus the Celestials would win.
Originally posted by Galan007
Imo, adult Frank's power was clearly augmented to at least some degree after gaining young Franklin's power.
When the Celestials first encounter Adult Franklin (prior to taking young Franklin's powers to revive Galactus), how do they react? Again, what words are used? "Danger" "Doom" You're clearly overlooking this fact. If he couldn't beat at least one or two of them on his own without an amp, they would not be so terrified of him. They feared him for a reason. Galactus himself stated that he feared a confrontation with Franklin. Wrong or right? Reed was like, "You feared??"
Another important point is that we see Nathaniel's logic, for all he's known and seen, is flawed to an extent. Both Valeria and Nathaniel acknowledged that it was "Franklin who figured it out."
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
Plus the Celestials are extremely intelligent.
Indeed. Extremely intelligent. And what are the words such beings use at the mere sight of Adult Franklin before he takes his young counterpart's orb meant for Galactus? "Danger" and "DOOM". And were they right about that? Absolutely. He destroyed two of them and (using young Frank's powers) brought back Galactus to finish off the third. Through his machinations, all three went down.
Whoa, having finally read all the issues in question i must say that this was very well done. Definitely blows cosmic headbutts out of the water. The power levels of the mad celestials have certainly been shown to be at the very least comparable to their 616 counterparts thats for sure. Heck Id say they have done more than any save Tiamut.
Galactus certainly comes off looking good here, No selling kree nega bombs, seemingly holding his own versus 3 celestials and even killing one, then coming back later and killing another...good stuff. Definitely hoping to see some more Celestial character development in the upcoming months as well.
I think Galactus kills 2 and a half of the 4 Mad Celestials. He kills one during the initial conflict, then the 3 form into one and ko Galactus. The 3 are then split apart, Franklin fights them and kills one (I think), whilst a revived Galactus rips apart another one and then blasts a great big hole in the final one, through which Franklin enters in a suicidal attack.
So my scoring for G is 2.5 Celestials downed by him.