Galactus vs The Celestials...

Oh, and Power Cosmic II, one more comment to support my claims:

On one page, Nathaniel states the following: "I have seen hundreds of iterations of this day--relived it countless times. I have interceded. I have manipulated. I have done everything I could to produce a new outcome .. and my every effort failed. You see, Son. This is the day all your sins caught up to you. It's the day you died. BUT FRANKLIN FIGURED IT OUT. AND HE WOULDN"T HAVE IT. HE WOULDN'T STAND FOR IT. "Every boy deserves a father." Now go back and read FF# 582. See Franklin made the difference here by sending 616 Nathaniel back to Reed. Nathaniel wanted to stay and do things his way, as he'd done numerous times already and failed. But Franklin and Valeria made new plans. Sequencing is very important. Again Nathaniel states he tried everything and failed, BUT Franklin figured out why. That was the turning point.

Originally posted by Doon
Oh, and Power Cosmic II, one more comment to support my claims:

On one page, Nathaniel states the following: "I have seen hundreds of iterations of this day--relived it countless times. I have interceded. I have manipulated. I have done everything I could to produce a new outcome .. and my every effort failed. You see, Son. This is the day all your sins caught up to you. It's the day you died. BUT FRANKLIN FIGURED IT OUT. AND HE WOULDN"T HAVE IT. HE WOULDN'T STAND FOR IT. "Every boy deserves a father." Now go back and read FF# 582. See Franklin made the difference here by sending 616 Nathaniel back to Reed. Nathaniel wanted to stay and do things his way, as he'd done numerous times already and failed. But Franklin and Valeria made new plans. Sequencing is very important. Again Nathaniel states he tried everything and failed, BUT Franklin figured out why. That was the turning point.

Yes you're correct in that regard...but having looked at 604 again last night, we both glanced over the fact that the narrative explaining franklin sacrificing himself, etc. isn't Nathaniel...it's the actual story narrative. That undermines the whole supposition that Nathaniel is explaining what's going on as he perceives. Go back to 604 and you'll notice that Nathaniel has a very distinctive text box that indicates it's him narrating. As soon as Franklin dives into the hole Galactus blasted in the final Celestial, the narrative text CHANGES. It's NOT Nathaniel explaining it as he sees. It's the narrator telling us what is unfolding.

So the whole point is moot.

Originally posted by Doon
That said, if you want to make the assumption that Adult Franklin needed Young Franklin's help specifically for the fight, you're welcome to (and you obviously have). In my opinion, though, there's little concrete evidence to support that theory. It's open to interpretation.

Fact: Adult Frank gathered young Frank's power and easily slew a Celestial.
Fact: Adult Frank withOUT young Frank's power had to kill himself just to beat the second Celestial... And that was AFTER Galactus had already softened it up.

You really think such a vast difference in displayed power between Frank having the amp, and not having the amp, can be chalked up to pure coincidence? Chalked up to huge differences in Celestial power? C'mon. It seems pretty clear that adult Frank used some of young Franklin's power to kill the first Celestial--especially given the ease in which he did it.

Originally posted by Doon
Slight flaw in your logic. Adult Franklin began training young Franklin how to best use his powers right? He told him to keep it somewhere safe and to avoid using it at all costs until the time is right. Young Franklin disobeyed and used a little of his power in the first confrontation with the Celestials. Adult Franklin tells him it's okay, but hopefully there's enough left. In my opinion, Adult Franklin wouldn't risk using more of the power contained in his young counterpart's orb against the Celestials when he went to such trouble advising young Frank not to use it during training. Reviving Galactus is no easy task and Adult Franklin already knew that Young Franklin used some of his power in the first confrontation against the Celestials. Therefore, he wouldn't waste it in the battle, especially when he has power of his own.

Quite frankly that, rather ambiguous, comment could have easily/logically been referring to using the orb to accomplish multiple tasks. Example: "Hopefully it'll be...[Enough to fight off the Celestials long enough to resurrect Galactus.]"

See my point? You cannot put a limit on an open-ended comment.

Originally posted by Doon
When the Celestials first encounter Adult Franklin (prior to taking young Franklin's powers to revive Galactus), how do they react? Again, what words are used? "Danger" "Doom" You're clearly overlooking this fact. If he couldn't beat at least one or two of them on his own without an amp, they would not be so terrified of him. They feared him for a reason. Galactus himself stated that he feared a confrontation with Franklin. Wrong or right? Reed was like, "You feared??"

Even WITH the amp, adult Franklin was NOT powerful enough to defeat the Celestials by himself. It's right there in black and white.

You're very quick to point the "assumption finger", yet that's ALL I see you doing in your posts.

Originally posted by Galan007
It is the only logical conclusion, unless YOU are "assuming" that the final Celestial's power (the one Galactus easily blasted through with his eye-beams) was several times greater than the other Celestials. Not only would THAT be an "assumption", but it would be an assumption backed by absolutely nothing. If the writers intended for the final Celestial to be THAT much more powerful than the others, we WOULD have known about it... But the fact is: throughout this event, ALL of the mad Celestials were portrayed as being near-equals.

Fact: Adult Frank gathered young Frank's power and easily slew a Celestial.
Fact: Adult Frank withOUT young Frank's power had to kill himself just to beat the second Celestial... And that was AFTER Galactus had already softened it up.

You really think such a vast difference in displayed power between Frank having the amp, and not having the amp, can be chalked up to pure coincidence? Chalked up to huge differences in Celestial power? C'mon. It seems pretty clear that adult Frank used some of young Franklin's power to kill the first Celestial--especially given the ease in which he did it.

You're assuming Frank's statement:

was only referring to ONE task--resurrecting Galactus.

Quite frankly that, rather ambiguous, comment could have easily/logically been referring to using the orb to accomplish multiple tasks. Example: "Hopefully it'll be...[Enough to fight off the Celestials long enough to resurrect Galactus.]"

See my point? You cannot put a limit on an open-ended comment.

And YOU are, once again, ignoring what was blatantly stated by Nathaniel:

Even WITH the amp, adult Franklin was NOT powerful enough to defeat the Celestials by himself. It's right there in black and white.

You're very quick to point the "assumption finger", yet that's ALL I see you doing in your posts.

"Fact: Adult Frank gathered young Frank's power and easily slew a Celestial."
CORRECT

"Fact: Adult Frank withOUT young Frank's power had to kill himself just to beat the second Celestial... And that was AFTER Galactus had already softened it up."
INCORRECT. Once again, you're making an assumption here. (Not saying that's a bad thing, mind you.) First of all, did they explicitly come out and say that Franklin was dead? Did they show his dead body? No. Indeed, there was a dramatic scene which occurred following the epic conflagration, but that's certainly open to interpretation. Some, like yourself, felt that Franklin did, in fact, perish at the end of the struggle against the Celestials prior to emerging from Galactus' hands. I, however, remain uncertain specifically because what you describe as a "mourning scene" could very well be interpreted as a fearful reaction to the notion that Franklin might not have survived. Again, it's kind of like watching a loved one rush into a burning building to save the life of a child, only to see the same building collapse. At first, you jump to conclusions and fight back grief, thinking the worst. Then you're relieved when you see that the person whom you thought was dead somehow made it out alive. How many times have we seen that very scenario played out on films and TV shows? So Franklin emerged from Galactus' hands. Does that tell us, without a doubt, that he was dead? Not really. When people die, what's the first thing people say? I didn't see a body! Did you see Franklin's dead body? No. Certainly, Galactus' form looked a lot closer to being dead than Franklin's. He got wrecked by the Super Celestial. That said, it's open to interpretation -- mine or yours and that of everyone else.

"It is the only logical conclusion, unless YOU are "assuming" that the final Celestial's power (the one Galactus easily blasted through with his eye-beams) was several times greater than the other Celestials. Not only would THAT be an "assumption", but it would be an assumption backed by absolutely nothing. If the writers intended for the final Celestial to be THAT much more powerful than the others, we WOULD have known about it... But the fact is: throughout this event, ALL of the mad Celestials were portrayed as being near-equals."

The only logical conclusion? I think not. As you've stated above, Galactus did indeed blast a hole through the final Celestial. The Celestial then retaliated with a beam of concussive force. It clearly hurt Galactus, but did not kill him. If pressed further, Galactus might have been able to take him out, especially with Franklin's aid. Keep in mind, it was two against one now (Franklin and Galactus against the last Mad Celestial). So Franklin's kamikaze-like move technically wasn't necessary. It was an act he selflessly chose to perform. No one forced him to make the decision.

And there's something else you're not considering. I never said the last Celestial was more powerful than the others. (I believe someone else in this thread did) Moreover, said Celestial doesn't have to be more powerful in order to emphasize my point. Why? Well, in FF# 15, upon learning that young Franklin used some of his power in his first encounter with the Celestials, we see Adult Franklin tell his younger counterpart that he hopes whatever power he was able to conserve is still enough to save everyone. What does that tell you? It tells you that the more energy expended, the less powerful Franklin becomes (although, in the past, the goods have been shown to return over certain periods of time). Taking that into account, let's examine the start of the fight again. Adult Franklin (without an amp of any kind) shows up. The Celestials themselves, highly intelligent beings, use the words DANGER and DOOM at the mere sight of him. (As I stated in a previous post, they wouldn't be so afraid of Franklin if he wasn't capable of taking out at least one or two of them. You conveniently ignored this point.) He then expends some energy shunting the Celestials away in a flash of light. When they come back, like you said, he easily takes out the first of the three remaining Mad Celestials. The fact that he was is in possession of Young Franklin's orb at this time does not necessarily mean the aforementioned feat was the result of an amp. However, he again used some power right? So that means he's getting weaker. Considering that he loses power as his energies are expended, it's "logical" that Franklin would experience more difficulty in taking out his opponents as the fight continued to progress. There's no reason to assume the last Celestial was more powerful than the others. Franklin was obviously spent.

"You're assuming Frank's statement was only referring to ONE task--resurrecting Galactus"

Although, like you and others in this thread, I have indeed made assumptions based on events which are clearly open to interpretation, when it comes to the orb, my argument relies mostly on facts.

Again, we see Franklin give the orb to his future self right? FACT
We see him use the same ball to resurrect Galactus' presumably dead or comatose body. FACT
Those are solid facts right there! It's all we know FOR CERTAIN.

"Quite frankly that, rather ambiguous, comment could have easily/logically been referring to using the orb to accomplish multiple tasks. Example: [i]"Hopefully it'll be...[Enough to fight off the Celestials long enough to resurrect Galactus.]"

Sure. It's open to interpretation, which could go either way. That's my whole point. Maybe the orb did help Franklin defeat the first Celestial so easily; and maybe it did not. We don't know for sure. All we know FOR SURE is that it brought back Galactus. Again, though, considering that the Mad Celestials clearly feared the Adult Franklin prior to acquiring the orb (using words like DOOM), it begs the question, "Why were they so afraid?" If he couldn't defeat one or two of them, why use words like DANGER and DOOM? The Celestials themselves said this. Not Nathaniel. Not a narrator. The Celestials. Food for thought.

"And YOU are, once again, ignoring what was blatantly stated by Nathaniel"

Actually I'm not. I'm aware that Franklin could not beat all THREE Celestials at the same time. He is certainly capable of defeating one or two of them, however, with or without young Franklin's assistance in my opinion.

Out of curiousity, in light of your thinking Adult Franklin's powers were somewhat increased by an amp simply because he was in possession of the orb, what do you make of Galactus? The same orb you think empowered the already powerful Adult Franklin was transferred to Galactus. You obviously very much support the notion that the orb had other possible uses (aside from resurrecting the deceased Galactus), not explicitly revealed in the storyline. So one could say that Galactus too was amped by the power of Young Franklin right? It's possible isn't it?

I swiftly skimmed through your post and saw this, so I stopped reading:

Originally posted by Doon
First of all, did they explicitly come out and say that Franklin was dead? Did they show his dead body? No. Indeed, there was a dramatic scene which occurred following the epic conflagration, but that's certainly open to interpretation.

Frankly, you seem to incessantly ignore what the writer flat-out TELLS US (you've done this a few times now.) That said, I don't expect you to ever comprehend my stance, if you aren't even willing to acknowledge the [blatant] events of the comic itself.

No offense intended, just don't want to waste my time.

Originally posted by Galan007
I swiftly skimmed through your post and saw this, so I stopped reading:
Franklin did commit suicide in order to destroy the final Celestial. This, again, was explicitly stated in black and white:

"Look at the one who would sacrifice himself so that we all might live."

Frankly, you seem to incessantly ignore what the writer flat-out TELLS US (you've done this a few times now.) That said, I don't expect you to ever comprehend my stance, if you aren't even willing to acknowledge the [blatant] events of the comic itself.

No offense intended, just don't want to waste my time.

You only stopped reading because you don't have a strong enough argument to counter what I said in my last post; and that was expected.

And I already explained this scene with the following comment:

"First of all, did they explicitly come out and say that Franklin was dead? Did they show his dead body? No. Indeed, there was a dramatic scene which occurred following the epic conflagration, but that's certainly open to interpretation. Some, like yourself, felt that Franklin did, in fact, perish at the end of the struggle against the Celestials prior to emerging from Galactus' hands. I, however, remain uncertain specifically because what you describe as a "mourning scene" could very well be interpreted as a fearful reaction to the notion that Franklin might not have survived. Again, it's kind of like watching a loved one rush into a burning building to save the life of a child, only to see the same building collapse. At first, you jump to conclusions and fight back grief, thinking the worst. Then you're relieved when you see that the person whom you thought was dead somehow made it out alive. How many times have we seen that very scenario played out on films and TV shows? So Franklin emerged from Galactus' hands. Does that tell us, without a doubt, that he was dead? Not really. When people die, what's the first thing people say? I didn't see a body! Did you see Franklin's dead body? No. Certainly, Galactus' form looked a lot closer to being dead than Franklin's. He got wrecked by the Super Celestial. That said, it's open to interpretation -- mine or yours and that of everyone else."

On the 24th page (excluding the ads), we see that Franklin obviously survived even though they all thought he might not have.

Originally posted by Doon
You only stopped reading because you don't have a strong enough argument to counter what I said in my last post; and that was expected.

And I already explained this scene with the following comment:

"First of all, did they explicitly come out and say that Franklin was dead? Did they show his dead body? No. Indeed, there was a dramatic scene which occurred following the epic conflagration, but that's certainly open to interpretation. Some, like yourself, felt that Franklin did, in fact, perish at the end of the struggle against the Celestials prior to emerging from Galactus' hands. I, however, remain uncertain specifically because what you describe as a "mourning scene" could very well be interpreted as a fearful reaction to the notion that Franklin might not have survived. Again, it's kind of like watching a loved one rush into a burning building to save the life of a child, only to see the same building collapse. At first, you jump to conclusions and fight back grief, thinking the worst. Then you're relieved when you see that the person whom you thought was dead somehow made it out alive. How many times have we seen that very scenario played out on films and TV shows? So Franklin emerged from Galactus' hands. Does that tell us, without a doubt, that he was dead? Not really. When people die, what's the first thing people say? I didn't see a body! Did you see Franklin's dead body? No. Certainly, Galactus' form looked a lot closer to being dead than Franklin's. He got wrecked by the Super Celestial. That said, it's open to interpretation -- mine or yours and that of everyone else."

On the 24th page (excluding the ads), we see that Franklin obviously survived even though they all thought he might not have.

This is why further debate with you is entirely pointless.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, keep ignoring what the writer tells us, and replace it with your own conjecture.

Makes you look really smart. 👆

Didn't replace a thing on the contrary. It's called interpretation. Nathaniel clearly states, "Look at the one who WOULD sacrifice himself so that we all might live". The word "would" is important here specifically because it implies Franklin would be willing to sacrifice himself; and we clearly see that he was willing when he headed straight for the Celestial. On page 24, however, we see that he survived.

Look at it this way. If someone says, "You.. you WOULD sacrifice yourself for me?", that's obviously quite different from someone saying, "You.. you sacrificed yourself for me?" In the latter sentence, you'd be addressing a ghost.

facepalm

😆

Quite a few positive reviews for FF#604 have popped up all over the interwebs. Here's one that very briefly touches on the notion of Galactus possibly being 'killed" in his previous encounter with the Celestials as well as his new status as Franklin's herald.

http://shakefire.com/blogs/lee-roberts/2012/03/15/fantastic-four-gives-galactus-a-new-mission-ultimate-spiderman-and-char

Strange to have a being that is potentially more powerful then yourself as your herald but shrug I then again think that a good explanation to the whole story (Franklin being dead or not, Galactus being dead or not, what actually happened with young Franklins energy, what the altered event was, what Galactus future role will be etc.) will be given in 605, so I'm looking quite a bit forward to 605. 🙂

Originally posted by Utrigita
I then again think that a good explanation to the whole story (Franklin being dead or not, Galactus being dead or not, what actually happened with young Franklins energy, what the altered event was, what Galactus future role will be etc.) will be given in 605, so I'm looking quite a bit forward to 605. 🙂

That would be nice, but I doubt all of our questions will be answered in #605. A Q&A session with Hickman would be even better I think. BTW, Future Foundation #16 is also coming out pretty soon. Maybe next week or the week following.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Strange to have a being that is potentially more powerful then yourself as your herald but shrug I then again think that a good explanation to the whole story (Franklin being dead or not, Galactus being dead or not, what actually happened with young Franklins energy, what the altered event was, what Galactus future role will be etc.) will be given in 605, so I'm looking quite a bit forward to 605. 🙂

I tweeted Hickman to get some more concrete answers. If he responds, I'll be sure to post his reply here.

There are no questions. Stop trying to force your speculation. Galactus was ktfo (possibly, but not likely, dead) and was restored (possibly, but not likely, resurrected). Franklin clearly sacrificed himself and was clearly resurrected.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
There are no questions. Stop trying to force your speculation. Galactus was ktfo (possibly, but not likely, dead) and was restored (possibly, but not likely, resurrected). Franklin clearly sacrificed himself and was clearly resurrected.

I'm welcome to do as I please. If you don't like it, that's your problem. You don't moderate these boards.

^ I'm welcome to do as I please, which is rebutting and commenting. If you don't like it, that's your problem. You don't moderate these boards.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I'm welcome to do as I please, which is rebutting and commenting. If you don't like it, that's your problem. You don't moderate these boards.

Actually, all you do is make condescending remarks; you offer nothing productive. From here on out, you're on my ignore list. "Problem" solved. Have fun conversing with yourself or getting owned by Galactic Storm. Bye now. 😆

^ Later, schmuck.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
There are no questions. Stop trying to force your speculation. Galactus was ktfo (possibly, but not likely, dead) and was restored (possibly, but not likely, resurrected). Franklin clearly sacrificed himself and was clearly resurrected.

While I agree with you ODG (based on what we have seen and been told so far), I also think we might as well wait until 605 before jumping into a huge debate over it, when the circumstances can all change with a single issue. I mean with the preview for 604 many was "OMG Franklin just killed 3 Celestials with a wave of his hand" while in reality he would lose against them. So again imo lets wait and see.