Hickman only has 15 more issues combined of F4 and FF. If the answers will come, it'll probably be sooner rather than later since he stated all his issues from here on out are single-story, one-and-done types.
And I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll get them, since Hickman doesn't force fans to make up their own conclusions about poorly written story like a certain Fraction
Originally posted by Utrigita
I also think we might as well wait until 605 before jumping into a huge debate over it, when the circumstances can all change with a single issue. I mean with the preview for 604 many was "OMG Franklin just killed 3 Celestials with a wave of his hand" while in reality he would lose against them. So again imo lets wait and see.
This is true. Then again, through Adult Franklin's machinations, he technically was able to defeat the three Celestials with assistance from Galactus. First, he blasted a hole in one of them (as seen on pages 9 and 10 (not counting ads). He then proceeded to defeat/destroy the blue Celestial after it attacked him. Then he used the orb encompassing Young Franklin's powers to resurrect the deceased or comatose Galactus, making him his personal herald! Galactus soon rips apart the Celestial that was injured by Franklin's initial attack. Galactus then proceeds, under Frank's direction, to attack and subsequently injure the remaining Celestial. At this point it was still 2 against one (Franklin and Galactus against the Celestial), but Franklin chose to end the fight quickly by heading straight for the Space God, Superman-style. Once the conflagration dies down, we first see Galactus and then Adult Franklin emerge from the hands of his new herald. So yeah, AF couldn't beat all three on his own, but he clearly found a way to defeat them nonetheless.
Not sure how much #605 will expand on the story, but who knows? Incidentally, the epilogue for the Doom and Forever storylines are supposedly coming with Future Foundation #16, according to the solicits.
Originally posted by Doon
This is true. Then again, through Adult Franklin's machinations, he technically was able to defeat the three Celestials with assistance from Galactus. First, he blasted a whole in one of them (as seen on pages 9 and 10 (not counting ads). He then proceeded to defeat/destroy the blue Celestial after it attacked him. Then he used the orb encompassing Young Franklin's powers to resurrect the deceased or comatose Galactus, making him his personal herald! Under Franklin's direction, Galactus attacked and injured the remaining Celestial. At this point it was still 2 against one (Franklin and Galactus against the Celestial), but Franklin chose to end the fight quickly by heading straight for the Space God, Superman-style. Once the conflagration dies down, we first see Galactus and then Adult Franklin emerge from the hands of his new herald. So yeah, AF couldn't beat all three on his own, but he clearly found a way to defeat them nonetheless.Not sure how much #605 will expand to the story, but who knows? Incidentally, the epilogue for the Doom and Forever storylines are supposedly coming with Future Foundation #16, according to the solicits.
I don't agree with your exact usage of "technically". Franklin would have lost without summoning Galactus. Technically means "according to the exact facts or meaning" and that literally means of the 4 Celestials, Franklin and Galactus each killed 2.
It's much more apt to say
"technically Galactus wouldn't have the opportunity to kill another Celestial without Franklin's intervention"
and
"technically Franklin would have lost if he did not re-introduce Galactus into the situation"
and
"technically Sol's Anvil allowed Franklin the opportunity to kill 2 Celestials and make possible the death of a 4th, after the 1st Celestial was already killed"
Also, somewhere after the first Celestial Franklin killed, either his power exponentially decreased, or the risk of him losing exponentially increased. The flaw of saying "he chose to end it quickly" means you're implying that it was something he always could have done at any moment.
Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
I don't agree with your exact usage of "technically". Franklin would have lost without summoning Galactus. Technically means "according to the exact facts or meaning" and that literally means of the 4 Celestials, Franklin and Galactus each killed 2.It's much more apt to say
"technically Galactus wouldn't have the opportunity to kill another Celestial without Franklin's intervention"
and
"technically Franklin would have lost if he did not re-introduce Galactus into the situation"
and
"technically Sol's Anvil allowed Franklin the opportunity to kill 2 Celestials and make possible the death of a 4th, after the 1st Celestial was already killed"
Indeed. Thanks for the correction.
Originally posted by Doon
This is true. Then again, through Adult Franklin's machinations, he technically was able to defeat the three Celestials with assistance from Galactus. First, he blasted a hole in one of them (as seen on pages 9 and 10 (not counting ads). He then proceeded to defeat/destroy the blue Celestial after it attacked him. Then he used the orb encompassing Young Franklin's powers to resurrect the deceased or comatose Galactus, making him his personal herald! Galactus soon rips apart the Celestial that was injured by Franklin's initial attack. Galactus then proceeds, under Frank's direction, to attack and subsequently injure the remaining Celestial. At this point it was still 2 against one (Franklin and Galactus against the Celestial), but Franklin chose to end the fight quickly by heading straight for the Space God, Superman-style. Once the conflagration dies down, we first see Galactus and then Adult Franklin emerge from the hands of his new herald. So yeah, AF couldn't beat all three on his own, but he clearly found a way to defeat them nonetheless.Not sure how much #605 will expand on the story, but who knows? Incidentally, the epilogue for the Doom and Forever storylines are supposedly coming with Future Foundation #16, according to the solicits.
My point is that jumping to conclusions (as it was indeed the case with the preview for 604 for many, myself included) have been proven to be incorrect at best. Hence my request for people to calm down and await 605, I'm sure the majority of the questions will be answered, there. Else in regard to your post concerning the battle I'll like to point out that the Celestial that Franklin damaged and Galactus later ripped apart healed from the damage Franklin did to it, else PCII have basically said the rest.
Originally posted by Utrigita
My point is that jumping to conclusions (as it was indeed the case with the preview for 604 for many, myself included) have been proven to be incorrect at best. Hence my request for people to calm down and await 605, I'm sure the majority of the questions will be answered, there. Else in regard to your post concerning the battle I'll like to point out that the Celestial that Franklin damaged and Galactus later ripped apart healed from the damage Franklin did to it, else PCII have basically said the rest.
I got your point. Question. What makes you think the Celestial Franklin damaged was healed before Galactus ripped it apart? On page 10 (not including the ads), you can see that he was still injured. And after that, there wasn't a very clear image of his chest from the front. (The Celestial who blasted Frank on page 14 wasn't the same Celestial, btw.) Next, we see Galactus reaching his hands into the very area that was left exposed by Adult Franklin's previous attack. It's a little hard to tell if said Celestial was still damaged, as there were visibly expended energies coming from the chest area. I think he was still damaged.
BTW, don't you think Future Foundation#16 will have some of the answers you expect to find in F4# 605?
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@zopzopYou my boy, but do you care to take back all that stuff about these Mad Celestials being less powerful than their 616 counterparts now?
Absolutely not. The writing was complete sh|t. So many inconsistencies with the story (power level wise), I don't know where to begin.
Originally posted by Galan007
Inconsistencies? Care to elaborate?I thought things were quite tidy.
How could they (the Rogue Celestials) be in total fear of young Franklin/adult Franklin before they combined powers, yet adult Franklin + young Franklin's combined power was unable to take out the 3 remaining Rogue Celestials without rezzing/awakening Galactus?
They were crapping their pants screaming about "Doom" and "Universal level reality shaper" regarding just one of the Franklin's individually.
Originally posted by zopzop
How could they (the Rogue Celestials) be in total fear of young Franklin/adult Franklin before they combined powers, yet adult Franklin + young Franklin's combined power was unable to take out the 3 remaining Rogue Celestials without rezzing/awakening Galactus?They were crapping their pants screaming about "Doom" and "Universal level reality shaper" regarding just one of the Franklin's individually.
My thinking is this. They were afraid of Adult Franklin (before he took Young Franklin's orb) because, although he couldn't defeat all three on his own, he did have the power to destroy two of them. That's still a significant feat in itself. He's a powerful contender any way you look at it.
Also, Franklin only used Young Franklin's powers to resurrect Galactus -- not to aid him in the fight.
I typed up a pretty lengthy explanation regarding the above not long ago. Here's some of it.
"Galactus did indeed blast a hole through the final Celestial. The Celestial then retaliated with a beam of concussive force. It clearly hurt Galactus, but did not kill him. If pressed further, Galactus might have been able to take him out, especially with Franklin's aid. Keep in mind, it was two against one now (Franklin and Galactus against the last Mad Celestial). So Franklin's kamikaze-like move technically wasn't necessary. It was an act he selflessly chose to perform. No one forced him to make the decision.
And there's something else you're not considering. I never said the last Celestial was more powerful than the others. (I believe someone else in this thread did) Moreover, said Celestial doesn't have to be more powerful in order to emphasize my point. Why? Well, in FF# 15, upon learning that young Franklin used some of his power in his first encounter with the Celestials, we see Adult Franklin tell his younger counterpart that he hopes whatever power he was able to conserve is still enough to save everyone. What does that tell you? It tells you that the more energy expended, the less powerful Franklin becomes (although, in the past, the goods have been shown to return over certain periods of time). Taking that into account, let's examine the start of the fight again. Adult Franklin (without an amp of any kind) shows up. The Celestials themselves, highly intelligent beings, use the words DANGER and DOOM at the mere sight of him. (As I stated in a previous post, they wouldn't be so afraid of Franklin if he wasn't capable of taking out at least one or two of them. You conveniently ignored this point.) He then expends some energy shunting the Celestials away in a flash of light. When they come back, like you said, he easily takes out the first of the three remaining Mad Celestials. The fact that he was in possession of Young Franklin's orb at this time does not necessarily mean the aforementioned feat was the result of an amp. However, he again used some power right? So that means he's getting weaker. Considering that he loses power as his energies are expended, it's "logical" that Franklin would experience more difficulty in taking out his opponents as the fight continued to progress. There's no reason to assume the last Celestial was more powerful than the others. Franklin was obviously spent.
Galan007 said, "You're assuming Frank's statement was only referring to ONE task--resurrecting Galactus"
Although, like you and others in this thread, I have indeed made assumptions based on events which are clearly open to interpretation, when it comes to the orb, my argument relies mostly on facts.
Again, we see Franklin give the orb to his future self right? FACT
We see him use the same ball to resurrect Galactus' presumably dead or comatose body. FACT
Those are solid facts right there! It's all we know FOR CERTAIN.
Galan007 said, "Quite frankly that, rather ambiguous, comment could have easily/logically been referring to using the orb to accomplish multiple tasks. Example: [i]"Hopefully it'll be...[Enough to fight off the Celestials long enough to resurrect Galactus.]"
Sure. It's open to interpretation, which could go either way. That's my whole point. Maybe the orb did help Franklin defeat the first Celestial so easily; and maybe it did not. We don't know for sure. All we know FOR SURE is that it brought back Galactus. Again, though, considering that the Mad Celestials clearly feared the Adult Franklin prior to acquiring the orb (using words like DOOM), it begs the question, "Why were they so afraid?" If he couldn't defeat one or two of them, why use words like DANGER and DOOM? The Celestials themselves said this. Not Nathaniel. Not a narrator. The Celestials. Food for thought."
Originally posted by Doon
I got your point. Question. What makes you think the Celestial Franklin damaged was healed before Galactus ripped it apart? On page 10 (not including the ads), you can see that he was still injured. And after that, there wasn't a very clear image of his chest from the front. (The Celestial who blasted Frank on page 14 wasn't the same Celestial, btw.) Next, we see Galactus reaching his hands into the very area that was left exposed by Adult Franklin's previous attack. It's a little hard to tell if said Celestial was still damaged, as there were visibly expended energies coming from the chest area. I think he was still damaged.BTW, don't you think Future Foundation#16 will have some of the answers you expect to find in F4# 605?
Well the evidence to support that the Celestial healed have already been posted once in this thread, no reason to repost it tbh, I think it was page 27 or something like that. But if you don't want to look through the thread, you can look at where the damage is located on the Celestial (at the upper part of his torso, right after Reeds father tells us that Franklin can't win on his own) you see that in the page right after Franklin destroy the one Celestials head, the upper torso of the previously damaged Celestial is fine, which is actually in fine line with the speed of which the Celestials generally regenerate.
nvm found it:
Originally posted by Galan007
👆Here's the gaping hole Franklin originally left in the Celestial:
The hole appears to run from its abdomen to its neck.Couple pages later, the wound appears to be healed:
Couple pages later, the only discernible damage to the Celestial is where Galactus is double-fisting it:
So yeah, the Celestial apparently healed from Frank's attack. Rapidly.
Originally posted by zopzop
How could they (the Rogue Celestials) be in total fear of young Franklin/adult Franklin before they combined powers, yet adult Franklin + young Franklin's combined power was unable to take out the 3 remaining Rogue Celestials without rezzing/awakening Galactus?They were crapping their pants screaming about "Doom" and "Universal level reality shaper" regarding just one of the Franklin's individually.
They wasn't really crapping their pants, if you look at how the actually battle played out, it went pretty much as the Celestials themselves said, the one saying Doom was indeed killed but the two others saying danger only got that. Imo given that the Celestials like Galactus have a degree of Cosmic Awarness they was most likely aware of what would happen to each of them in the coming confrontation. But that is just my take on it. It's also possible that it's their verdict on what should happen to Franklin since that they presented Galactus with a similar speech.
Originally posted by Utrigita
Well the evidence to support that the Celestial healed have already been posted once in this thread, no reason to repost it tbh, I think it was page 27 or something like that. But if you don't want to look through the thread, you can look at where the damage is located on the Celestial (at the upper part of his torso, right after Reeds father tells us that Franklin can't win on his own) you see that in the page right after Franklin destroy the one Celestials head, the upper torso of the previously damaged Celestial is fine, which is actually in fine line with the speed of which the Celestials generally regenerate.nvm found it:
Thanks for saving me the trouble of searching for it.
Regarding this scan ..
I agree that the Celestial looks healed from this angle, but on the same token, it isn't the clearest shot. You can't really see his chest in that image, only the upper torso; the rest is cut off.
As for this one..
Not entirely convinced. All the energies surrounding his chest area makes it somewhat difficult to see.
That said, yes, Celestials are definitely known to heal up quickly and sufficient time might have passed for the Celestial in question to do so. Still not entirely sure, but you may be right.
Originally posted by Doon
Thanks for saving me the trouble of searching for it.Regarding this scan ..
I agree that the Celestial looks healed from this angle, but on the same token, it isn't the clearest shot. You can't really see his chest in that image, only the upper torso; the rest is cut off.
As for this one..
Not entirely convinced. All the energies surrounding his chest area makes it somewhat difficult to see.
That said, yes, Celestials are definitely known to heal up quickly and sufficient time might have passed for the Celestial in question to do so. Still not entirely sure, but you may be right.
I think it's pretty clear, taken the holes location into consideration, coupled with how effortlessly the Celestials healed from the damage given to them in 603 that the damage Franklin dealt was rapidly healed. But then again that is just my take on it. I find it hard to believe (seeing what the Celestials recovered from in 603) that this particular Celestial didn't recover, when he recovered from worse damage in 603.
As for Galactus, all that energy is most likely coming from Galactus ripping the Celestial chest open. The major difference to me is that, in top scan (from your post), the Celestial wasn't bleeding energy from his chest, (which was clearly the case on Galan's first scan) something that was happening in the later scan with Galactus hands clearly piercing his torso. I then find it reasonable to assume that the Celestial did indeed heal.
But to each his own 🙂
