DE Sidious vs Sith Emperor

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Having knowledge that Vitiate was the sith Emperor who existed 4,000 years ago won't prepare you for a battle. Having knowledge OF one or many of Vitiate's techniques would. Not sure why this has to be spelled out for you.

The foundation for preparation is intelligence (i.e. knowledge, not intellect). Palpatine, arguably the mythos's foremost expert on the Force, Sith, and their relevant history, would be reasonably expected to have knowledge of the individual who is arguably his most successful and historically important precedessor, particularly when Sidious is known to have knowledge of one of said predecessor's most accomplished agents. Vitiate, on the other hand, has no intelligence or knowledge of Sidious at all. Sidious66's point was that Sidious would therefore have more to draw on when forming a defense against Vitiate in terms of knowledge and preparation than Vitiate has against Sidious.

This is logically sound and very easy to understand and, coincidentally, is commensurate with everything that was said by either him or myself.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
The foundation for preparation is intelligence (i.e. knowledge, not intellect). Palpatine, arguably the mythos's foremost expert on the Force, Sith, and their relevant history, would be reasonably expected to have knowledge of the individual who is arguably his most successful and historically important precedessor, particularly when Sidious is known to have knowledge of one of said predecessor's most accomplished agents. Vitiate, on the other hand, has no intelligence or knowledge of Sidious at all. Sidious66's point was that Sidious would therefore have more to draw on when forming a defense against Vitiate in terms of knowledge and preparation than Vitiate has against Sidious.

This is logically sound and very easy to understand and, coincidentally, is commensurate with everything that was said by either him or myself.

Most successful and historically accurate predecessor? Perhaps you forgot Ruin's Empire which achieved more in every possible way, followed by the Brotherhood of darkness who followed that trend. While it's possible that sidious might have more to draw upon, it's equally possible that he would know next to nothing about Vitiate's techniques.

The New Sith Empire when it ruled the majority of the galaxy was not a single unified Empire but rather numerous Sith Kingdoms all at war with one another. Furthermore, many of the planets at the time were uninhabited due to a massive plague outbreak. As for the BoD, they really didn't rule a large portion of the galaxy but instead waged a rather succesful campaign beofre being stopped at Ruusan.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Most successful and historically accurate predecessor?

Arguably, yes.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Perhaps you forgot Ruin's Empire which achieved more in every possible way, followed by the Brotherhood of darkness who followed that trend.

I don't have the Atlas or chronologies on hand, so feel free to enlighten me with these monumental achievements relative to those of the Cold War-era empire.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
While it's possible that sidious might have more to draw upon,

It's highly probable (not possible, but probable) that Sidious has knowledge of Vitiate based on what we know of Sidious and the resources at his disposal. The same can't be said for Vitiate.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
it's equally possible that he would know next to nothing about Vitiate's techniques.

No one claimed that this was so, though again, the idea that he would be completely ignorant of Vitiate's Force achievements approaches absurd. The fact remains that he simply has more to prepare himself with in terms of intelligence than Vitiate, which was Sidious66's point.

I don't have the Atlas or chronologies on hand, so feel free to enlighten me with these monumental achievements relative to those of the Cold War-era empire.

Aside from the fact that they controlled exponentially more territory than their predecessors and that they instituted a Republic Dark Age? No atlas is needed.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Aside from the fact that they controlled exponentially more territory than their predecessors and that they instituted a Republic Dark Age?

Originally posted by ares834
The New Sith Empire when it ruled the majority of the galaxy was not a single unified Empire but rather numerous Sith Kingdoms all at war with one another. Furthermore, many of the planets at the time were uninhabited due to a massive plague outbreak. As for the BoD, they really didn't rule a large portion of the galaxy but instead waged a rather succesful campaign beofre being stopped at Ruusan.

Both of you seem to be lacking substantiated sources, but it seems that Ares has sunk your battleship. Not that it matters, of course, since I typed 'arguably' for a reason.

Unfortunately for both of you, it was called "The New Sith Empire", not "The New Sith collection of kingdoms". So while you can choose to argue semantics, my position was that the New Sith Empire achieved more. The fact that you acknowledged this means we can move on from your concession.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Unfortunately for both of you, it was called "The New Sith Empire", not "The New Sith collection of kingdoms".

But that is what it is. It's not one Empire. Regardless, CoL's point was not that the True Sith Empire was the most succesful Empire but that Vitate was perhaps the most succesful Sith. Ruin, on the other hand, was long dead when the New Sith "Empire" ruled the majority of the galaxy.

Did you attend any of the classes in law school where they encouraged you to cite precedence and sources for your arguments, or did it come across as just a mild suggestion? I realize that it's ultimately tangential to the actual topic, but it would be nice for you to demonstrate that all that money wasn't wasted by applying your honed skills of citation and substantiation to use.

Where are these monumental achievements? Be specific, as you claimed they accomplished more in "every possible way."

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Did you attend any of the classes in law school where they encouraged you to cite precedence and sources for your arguments, or did it come across as just a mild suggestion? I realize that it's ultimately tangential to the actual topic, but it would be nice for you to demonstrate that all that money wasn't wasted by applying your honed skills of citation and substantiation to use.

Where are these monumental achievements? Be specific, as you claimed they accomplished more in "every possible way."

Aside from the fact that they controlled exponentially more territory than their predecessors and that they instituted a Republic Dark Age? No atlas is needed.

Amusing though coming from someone who is citing a wiki article on a piece of literature that hasn't been released. You're definitely wise enough to reconsider your law school plans.

you, page 9
Exact quotes please?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Amusing though coming from someone who is citing a wiki article on a piece of literature that hasn't been released.

Me
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Book..._the_Dark_Side_(real-life_book)

^ It has the extensive publisher's description

👆

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You're definitely wise enough to reconsider your law school plans.

Yes, especially armed with the knowledge that it clearly doesn't increase your knowledge of the law, debate, or rhetoric in any way.

we know that The Book of Sith features detailed accounts courtesy of Darth Malgus

From the description:

A war journal kept by Darth Malgus during the Great Galactic War, describing methods of war and the campaigns of the Sith army.

I didn't know a war journal describing methods of war somehow equate to accounts of the hierarchy of the sith much less the sith emperor.

So yea, again good choice on reconsidering.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
From the description:

First, you accept the description I provided. Next, you question it in order to provide your desperate need for ammunition in a cockfight you are losing badly. And now you accept it again.

That's what I thought.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I didn't know a war journal describing methods of war somehow equate to accounts of the hierarchy of the sith much less the sith emperor.

I said detailed accounts, not detailed accounts of the Imperial hierarchy. Though one might be inclined to believe that a war journal written by a warlord detailing the methods of warfare utilized in a galactic war that was initiated, perpetuated, and fought on behalf of the Sith Empire might pique Palpatine's interest and investigations into who was responsible. Naturally, though, you'd prefer the idea that Sidious would somehow be unaware of Vitiate's existence. Come back to me when there's actually reason for you to believe that.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
So yea, again good choice on reconsidering.

I apparently have no need of law school, since it seems I'm in a better position to actually practice it in every meaningful way. Who wants to spend all that time and money when the person who has is chronically disinclined to provide any source for his arguments and demands that others accept his interpretation. Sounds like a real Johnny Cochran to me.

Get to work on those quotes and sources.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
First, you accept the description I provided. Next, you question it in order to provide your desperate need for ammunition in a cockfight you are losing badly. And now you accept it again.

That's what I thought.

I said detailed accounts, not detailed accounts of the Imperial hierarchy. Though one might be inclined to believe that a war journal written by a warlord detailing the methods of warfare utilized in a galactic war that was initiated, perpetuated, and fought on behalf of the Sith Empire might pique Palpatine's interest and investigations into who was responsible. Naturally, though, you'd prefer the idea that Sidious would somehow be unaware of Vitiate's existence. Come back to me when there's actually reason for you to believe that.

I apparently have no need of law school, since it seems I'm in a better position to actually practice it in every meaningful way. Who wants to spend all that time and money when the person who has is chronically disinclined to provide any source for his arguments and demands that others accept his interpretation. Sounds like a real Johnny Cochran to me.

Get to work on those quotes and sources. [/B]

You have PoD.. You also have the NEC which I can't seem to find. It should be in there. Also, since there was an Imperial Capital, I guess that still makes it an empire huh? Anyways, come back with some ammo..

Edit: Oh yea,

Prior to 1,042 BBY the Empire collapsed in a civil war and fragmented into smaller states led by warring self-proclaimed Sith Lords, including such states as the Chagras Hegemony. From the ashes, Lord Kaan established the Brotherhood of Darkness in 1,006 BBY.

So I guess these smaller states lasted 42 out of 1,000 years.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
There's no need.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/New_Sith_Empire

You have PoD.. You also have the NEC which I can't seem to find. It should be in there. Also, since there was an Imperial Capital, I guess that still makes it an empire huh? Anyways, come back with some ammo..

Well if we are using wookiepedia as a source...

"possibly even rivaling the power once held by the Sith Empire of the Great Galactic War/Cold War era over sixteen hundred years prior."

So at best it rivaled the True Sith Empire...

Edit: Oh yea,

So I guess these smaller states lasted 42 out of 1,000 years.

And guess what years it was that the New Sith Empire was at it's largest...

I'm using Wiki as a source because I recall those details in the sources I listed. The opinion you added is listed nowhere. I know one of you have the NEC and it's in there.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
No, I'm pointing out your inconsistencies and proof that you made the right decision. Good try though, pretending you're winning. You're really good at it.

I appreciate your obedient nature and your final acceptance of the publisher's summary. Such obsequiousness will hopefully serve you now that your career in law is out of the question. Grocery stores and fast food chains across the country will bask in your servile nature and, no doubt you'll climb the ladder. Continue to hone such skills and you'll be just fine.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
(Hint: I'm not arguing that he had knowledge of Vitiate

[quote]me
Sidious66's point was that Sidious would therefore have more to draw on when forming a defense against Vitiate in terms of knowledge and preparation than Vitiate has against Sidious.

This is logically sound and very easy to understand and, coincidentally, is commensurate with everything that was said by either him or myself.

me
I appreciate your obedient nature

me
Such obsequiousness will hopefully serve you

me
Continue to hone such skills and you'll be just fine.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
There's no need.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/New_Sith_Empire

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Amusing though coming from someone who is citing a wiki article on a piece of literature

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The hypocrisy runs strong with you

your source
It encompassed a great percentage of the known galaxy, possibly even rivaling the power once held by the Sith Empire of the Great Galactic War/Cold War era over sixteen hundred years prior.

👆

you
Perhaps you forgot Ruin's Empire which achieved more in every possible way,

your source
It encompassed a great percentage of the known galaxy, possibly even rivaling the power once held by the Sith Empire of the Great Galactic War/Cold War era over sixteen hundred years prior.

you
Aside from the fact that they controlled exponentially more territory than their predecessors and that they instituted a Republic Dark Age? No atlas is needed.

[quote]your source
It encompassed a great percentage of the known galaxy, possibly even rivaling the power once held by the Sith Empire of the Great Galactic War/Cold War era over sixteen hundred years prior.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You have PoD..

you, page 9

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Anyways, come back with some ammo..

Eviscerating your enemy with his own bullets? Priceless.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I appreciate your obedient nature and your final acceptance of the publisher's summary. Such obsequiousness will hopefully serve you now that your career in law is out of the question. Grocery stores and fast food chains across the country will bask in your servile nature and, no doubt you'll climb the ladder. Continue to hone such skills and you'll be just fine.

👆

Exact quotes please?[/quote]

Eviscerating your enemy with his own bullets? Priceless. [/QUOTE]

No, I'm pointing out your inconsistencies and proof that you made the right decision. Good try though, pretending you're winning. You're really good at it.

Followed by:

I'm using Wiki as a source because I recall those details in the sources I listed. The opinion you added is listed nowhere. I know one of you have the NEC and it's in there.

Ouch.. That hurts.. I don't suppose I have to tell you that blatantly ignoring posts in order to re-quote yourself isn't a tactic that law school professors will appreciate (in before you accuse me of doing the same thing not realizing I'm not actually ignoring anything you wrote because you're not addressing anything in particular). Better have a plan B.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm using Wiki as a source because I recall those details in the sources I listed.

Then rather than assert definitive statements that are ultimately irrelevant to the actual discussion, you make like a good lawyer and cover your ass. This is why in all our interactions I emphasize the use of semantics and clever wordplay; do it well enough and your enemies will hate you for it, but they'll be unable to do to you what Ares and I are doing to you right now.

There was no reason for you to even bring the other Sith factions into this beyond a last-ditch attempt to undermine the argument that Sidious would have had knowledge of Vitiate because of his high profile nature in Sithdom.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The opinion you added is listed nowhere. I know one of you have the NEC and it's in there.

You asked for exact quotes from me earlier in this thread and we'll function by the same standard. I'll gladly accept your word that you will endeavor to seek out these statements in the immediate future.

DS,

You could at least try to conceal your desperation. Great men don't run, they make other men run. Remember that. I can't even quote that mess, it's so distorted.