Dude, you asked the question. I just provided an answer. Don't blame me if it was a dumb question.
It wasn't a choice between the two. By the time Vitiate offered them the ritual they had lost the war and were freaking desperate. It wouldn't have been that hard to convince them. They had quite literally no other options at that point.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, you asked the question. I just provided an answer. Don't blame me if it was a dumb question.It wasn't a choice between the two. By the time Vitiate offered them the ritual they had lost the war and were freaking desperate. I wouldn't have been that hard to convince them. They had quite literally no other options at that point.
"Some refused to answer his call. But many more came. After all, what could one man do against a hundred Sith Lords? Remember, he was not the Emperor back then. He was merely Lord Vitiate, ruler of a single planet of no particular importance. He hadn't fought in any battles of note or achieved any great victories or conquests beyond his homeworld. He had the reputation of a scholar, not a warrior." (Nyriss to Scourge)
Some refused his call. Not everybody was desperate. The Sith Lords who answered his call were curious about what Vitiate had to offer. This does not suggests that they were fools or could be easily fooled.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So? That isn't what you said. You asked if a single individual could manipulate 100 Sith Lords and I said, yeah, Naga Sadow did just that. The same gullable Sith lords who believed Sadow about the "Imminent Republic Invasion" were the guys who participated in Vitiates ritual.
I'm sorry but manipulate by deception and through sheer force of will are two different things.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm so enlightened I could shit.I don't get why you think we're arguing. You asked a question and I answered. You were wrong. Its ok.
Go outside your home and try to gather a large crowd of people and convince or manipulate them to support your cause, if you have any. Unless you are famous, people will not fall for your words.
Naga Sadow and Revan were famous individuals. The latter was particularly very charismatic. Vitiate was not renowned like them.
Get the point?
Here is another example of Palpatine's own will power, taken from the DE handbook...
Under Luke's entry: "After a brief lightsaber battle, the Emperor subdued Luke and broke his will"
Under Palpatine's entry: "Resisting the dark side one last time, Luke was able to destroy almost all of the Emperor's clones-in-waiting before he succumbed to Palpatine's strength.
But Palpatine could not foresee the strength of the light side as Leia finally got through to her brother and pulled him out of the darkness."
Also, in the actual DE comic, Luke practically cries out for help to Leia mentally. This is clear evidents that he was being controled against his own will.
It would be a waste of Vitiate's time to try to mentally control Palpatine. He was sent flying backwards when he tried it on Revan a second time, imagine what Palpatine would do to him if he tried it on him [Palpatine].
It would be a waste of Vitiate's time to try to mentally control Palpatine. He was sent flying backwards when he tried it on Revan a second time, imagine what Palpatine would do to him if he tried it on him [Palpatine].
Which is a dumb argument considering Revan understood as to how Vitiate did it and prepared for him. Palpatine wouldn't do anything to him, other than either attempt to resist it or successfully resist it.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Here is another example of Palpatine's own will power, taken from the DE handbook...Under Luke's entry: "After a brief lightsaber battle, the Emperor subdued Luke and broke his will"
It is pointed out in TEC that Sidious subdued Luke in a duel. There is no hint of any telepathic domination.
The feat of Sidious is not the same as that of Vitiate. The latter could crush the will of his opponent even before the duel would occur.
Also, why Palpatine failed to crush the will of Leia? She was not as strong as Luke.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Under Palpatine's entry: "Resisting the dark side one last time, Luke was able to destroy almost all of the Emperor's clones-in-waiting before he succumbed to Palpatine's strength.
But Palpatine could not foresee the strength of the light side as Leia finally got through to her brother and pulled him out of the darkness."
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, in the actual DE comic, Luke practically cries out for help to Leia mentally. This is clear evidents that he was being controled against his own will.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It would be a waste of Vitiate's time to try to mentally control Palpatine. He was sent flying backwards when he tried it on Revan a second time, imagine what Palpatine would do to him if he tried it on him [Palpatine].
Under telepathic barrage of Vitiate, traditional offensive moves against him from his opponents have never been witnessed. His telepathic assault is so strong.
Originally posted by ares834
I'm unsure how any of that indicates that Palpatine was controlling Luke.
After Palpatine disarms Luke he tells him what he [Luke] will do, which was to go with him to collect Palpatine's holocron from Leia and to crush the alliance once and for all, and Luke simply obeys after he had just resisted and defied Palpatine. There was nothing to indicate that Luke willfully submitted to the dark side again. In fact, Luke crying out to Leia tells me that Luke was being held against his own will.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Which is a dumb argument considering Revan understood as to how Vitiate did it and prepared for him. Palpatine wouldn't do anything to him, other than either attempt to resist it or successfully resist it.
It is not a dumb argument. Palpatine is vastly more powerful than Revan and has mental powers that are on Par with Vitiates own, if not greater. Palpatine would likely be more prepared for Vitiate than Vitiate would be for Palpatine. Vitiate has never faced an opponent as powerful as Sidious.
It is not a dumb argument. Palpatine is vastly more powerful than Revan and has mental powers that are on Par with Vitiates own, if not greater. Palpatine would likely be more prepared for Vitiate than Vitiate would be for Palpatine. Vitiate has never faced an opponent as powerful as Sidious.
Palpatine being vastly more powerful requires proof. We know he's more powerful, vastly is highly debatable. Nothing about Sidious' mental powers puts him above Vitiate. Equals sure but that's it. The fact that Revan had to prepare for something he understood negates your entire argument. Sidious has also never faced a more powerful opponent.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
After Palpatine disarms Luke he tells him what he [Luke] will do, which was to go with him to collect Palpatine's holocron from Leia and to crush the alliance once and for all, and Luke simply obeys after he had just resisted and defied Palpatine. There was nothing to indicate that Luke willfully submitted to the dark side again. In fact, Luke crying out to Leia tells me that Luke was being held against his own will.
Now explain to me that why Sidious failed to crush the will of Leia.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It is not a dumb argument. Palpatine is vastly more powerful than Revan and has mental powers that are on Par with Vitiates own, if not greater. Palpatine would likely be more prepared for Vitiate than Vitiate would be for Palpatine. Vitiate has never faced an opponent as powerful as Sidious.
Sidious have not demonstrated the capability to use his mental powers as a WEAPON in combat situation. Vitiate has.
And if this gives you some hint: Vitiate was confident that he could handle Revan, Meetra, and Scourge simultaneously. Now do the math.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And just to clarify just in case some of you did not know, the DE handbook is a different book than the sourcebook.As for you S_W_LeGenD, I'm not going to waste time with you. Sorry...
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Palpatine being [b]vastly more powerful requires proof. We know he's more powerful, vastly is highly debatable.[/B]
Didn't you once agree that DE Palpatine and Vitiate are pretty close in terms of force power? Than wouldn't you also agree that would put Palpatine far above Revan, since Vitiate is? The DE endnotes described Palpatine as being so powerful that he can tear open the fabric of space/time. So there is the proof that the raw energies at Palpatines disposal are far greater than Revan's, unless you can give an example where Revan comes close to this level of power. And I'm pretty sure you would agree that Palpatine's mastery of the force is greater than Revan's.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Nothing about Sidious' mental powers puts him above Vitiate. Equals sure but that's it. The fact that Revan had to prepare for something he understood negates your entire argument. Sidious has also never faced a more powerful opponent.
So then basically it's who will mentally dominate who first. Is that what you're saying? If so, then Palpatine would be more prepared than Vitiate, since Palpatine would have some knowledge about Vitiate.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Didn't you once agree that DE Palpatine and Vitiate are pretty close in terms of force power? Than wouldn't you also agree that would put Palpatine far above Revan, since Vitiate is? The DE endnotes described Palpatine as being so powerful that he can tear open the fabric of space/time. So there is the proof that the raw energies at Palpatines disposal are far greater than Revan's, unless you can give an example where Revan comes close to this level of power. And I'm pretty sure you would agree that Palpatine's mastery of the force is greater than Revan's.
So then basically it's who will mentally dominate who first. Is that what you're saying? If so, then Palpatine would be more prepared than Vitiate, since Palpatine would have some knowledge about Vitiate. [/B]
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
After Palpatine disarms Luke he tells him what he [Luke] will do, which was to go with him to collect Palpatine's holocron from Leia and to crush the alliance once and for all, and Luke simply obeys after he had just resisted and defied Palpatine. There was nothing to indicate that Luke willfully submitted to the dark side again. In fact, Luke crying out to Leia tells me that Luke was being held against his own will.
I don't know. It always seemed to me that Palpatine was simply putting Luke in his place and not mentally dominating him. Sure there may have been some mental manipulations going on but I don't see the need to say domination.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I appreciate your use of hyperbole when it suits your needs. Let's do it your way. Revan was like "staring into the heart of the force". So I guess the heart of the force>fabric of space/time.
Except, in Palpatine's case, it is not hyperbole as he litterally tears holes in space and time...
Originally posted by ares834
I don't know. It always seemed to me that Palpatine was simply putting Luke in his place and not mentally dominating him. Sure there may have been some mental manipulations going on but I don't see the need to say domination.
I'm not sure what else it could be. Palpatine used his standard manipulative tactics at Endor and again at Byss, but they were insufficient to truly bring Luke to the dark side. After their duel in the cloning chamber, Palpatine beats him into submission and forces the yoke of the dark side upon him. The audio extract from Dark Empire even goes so far as to feature a scene where Sidious and Luke are engaged in a battle of wills over Luke's very identity, which ends with Luke screaming and submitting to Palpatine: "I have no name."
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Really? I don't recall a hole being torn in space/time.
That's what a Force Storm is: a rend in the space/time continuum, similar to a hyperspace tunnel.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Based on what exactly?
I really wasn't keeping track of your discussion with Nephthys on this matter, but your implications that Sidious has no knowledge of Vitiate is facetious in nature, correct? Setting aside Palpatine's unparalleled knowledge of the Force and the fact that Vitiate's Sith empire isn't likely to be misplaced in the annals of history, we know that The Book of Sith features detailed accounts courtesy of Darth Malgus, a prominent Sith in Vitiate's empire, and these accounts found themselves in Palpatine's possession. The idea that Palpatine is ignorant of Vitiate's existence is... peculiar at best.