DE Sidious vs Sith Emperor

I really wasn't keeping track of your discussion with Nephthys on this matter, but your implications that Sidious has no knowledge of Vitiate is facetious in nature, correct? Setting aside Palpatine's unparalleled knowledge of the Force and the fact that Vitiate's Sith empire isn't likely to be misplaced in the annals of history, we know that The Book of Sith features detailed accounts courtesy of Darth Malgus, a prominent Sith in Vitiate's empire, and these accounts found themselves in Palpatine's possession. The idea that Palpatine is ignorant of Vitiate's existence is... peculiar at best.

The Book of Sith is what exactly? And I was talking about familiarity with Vitiate's techniques and force powers, which is speculation at best.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The Book of Sith is what exactly?

The companion piece to The Jedi Path; essentially the handbook of Sith Lords. The conceit is that Palpatine compiled ancient texts from five or six of his precedessors and bound them together in a single tome for aspirant dark siders.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And I was talking about familiarity with Vitiate's techniques and force powers, which is speculation at best.

Agreed, though I'd say that given Vitiate's high profile nature in Sith history and Palpatine's aptitude for historical insight, it's not baseless conjecture.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I'm not sure what else it could be. Palpatine used his standard manipulative tactics at Endor and again at Byss, but they were insufficient to truly bring Luke to the dark side.

Sure. Yet people change. Simply because it failed on the Death Star under certain circumstances doesn't mean it will always fail under diffrent circumstances.

The audio extract from Dark Empire even goes so far as to feature a scene where Sidious and Luke are engaged in a battle of wills over Luke's very identity, which ends with Luke screaming and submitting to Palpatine: "I have no name."

This, on the otherhand, does suggest mental domination.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
The companion piece to The Jedi Path; essentially the handbook of Sith Lords. The conceit is that Palpatine compiled ancient texts from five or six of his precedessors and bound them together in a single tome for aspirant dark siders.

Agreed, though I'd say that given Vitiate's high profile nature in Sith history and Palpatine's aptitude for historical insight, it's not baseless conjecture.

Do you have a download link?

No, it won't be released 'til February.

So where is the description of Palpatine possessing it and/or knowing about Malgus, etc.

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. Yet people change. Simply because it failed on the Death Star under certain circumstances doesn't mean it will always fail under diffrent circumstances.

That's why I mentioned Byss as well. Sidious persuaded Luke to take up his father's mantle in order to develop the skills and obtain the knowledge necessary to kill him. Luke paid lip-service to Sidious but was working actively the entire time to sabotage Palpatine's military ventures. Which is why during their duel in the cloning chamber, he simply beat Luke into submission, physically and telepathically.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
So where is the description of Palpatine possessing it and/or knowing about Malgus, etc.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Book_of_Sith:_Secrets_from_the_Dark_Side_(real-life_book)

^ It has the extensive publisher's description.

That looks... Sweet. Perhaps the most important piece of star wars literature... Ever

Edit: Nevermind, I just read everything involved. I think it's a stretch to say that because Malgus' piece is in there, Sidious would know anything about the Sith Emperor. What if Malgus never mentioned him? What if he just mentioned that their empire is controlled by the Emperor? None of that is enough information for Sidious to do anything with.

And typical of great Star Wars releases, Palpatine is at the center of it. But what's this? No Dooku? No Revan?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Edit: Nevermind, I just read everything involved. I think it's a stretch to say that because Malgus' piece is in there, Sidious would know anything about the Sith Emperor. What if Malgus never mentioned him? What if he just mentioned that their empire is controlled by the Emperor? None of that is enough information for Sidious to do anything with.

I realize that you and LeGenD are on the back foot here, but no one claimed that Sidious would have intimate knowledge of Vitiate's abilities or whatnot; what was said is that since Vitiate is a prominent and pivotal galactic figure and Sidious is proven time again to have secured more Force knowledge than anyone else in the mythos, Palpatine would have knowledge of Vitiate's existence and therefore more to work with in terms of preparation than Vitiate with Sidious.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I realize that you and LeGenD are on the back foot here, but no one claimed that Sidious would have intimate knowledge of Vitiate's abilities or whatnot; what was said is that since Vitiate is a prominent and pivotal galactic figure and Sidious is proven time again to have secured more Force knowledge than anyone else in the mythos, Palpatine would have knowledge of Vitiate's existence and therefore more to work with in terms of preparation than Vitiate with Sidious.

Unfortunately for you, I'm not even close to being on the backfoot because I'm not really involved in this and when I am, you guys can't seem to prove your case, but I understand it helps you sleep better at night.

And since we don't know what Malgus mentions in there, the best you can hope for is Sidious knowing that a sith emperor ruled the empire 4,000 years ago.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Unfortunately for you, I'm not even close to being on the backfoot because I'm not really involved in this and when I am,

Sure.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
you guys can't seem to prove your case,

[quote]me
It doesn't make much sense that Vitiate could be capable of all these things and yet allow his most powerful agents to act independent and openly plot against him, when it has been reiterated consistently throughout the book that his paranoia is palpable. The obvious answer to this conundrum is similar to Sidious's: there are clear limitations to Vitiate's ability to influence others through the Force.

you
okidokie

Every point I've endeavored to make seems to meet with warm reception by you, so I'd consider that a success.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
but I understand it helps you sleep better at night.

Your humble concessions do make my pillows the tiniest bit softer at night, yes.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
the best you can hope for is Sidious knowing that a sith emperor ruled the empire 4,000 years ago.

me
what was said is that since Vitiate is a prominent and pivotal galactic figure and Sidious is proven time again to have secured more Force knowledge than anyone else in the mythos, Palpatine would have knowledge of Vitiate's existence

Which again, is what was said by me in the first place. Concession accepted.

I realize that you and LeGenD are on the back foot here, but no one claimed that Sidious would have intimate knowledge of Vitiate's abilities or whatnot

I would be on the backfoot if I ever claimed anything aside that Sidious MIGHT have knowledge of Vitiate's existence. Reading Comprehension Ftw. YOUR concession is accepted 😂

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I would be on the backfoot if I ever claimed anything aside that Sidious MIGHT have knowledge of Vitiate's existence. Reading Comprehension Ftw. YOUR concession is accepted 😂

Spoiler:
You were arguing against a point that was never raised by anyone in a [not so subtle] effort to undermine the argument in favor of Palpatine. I tried to explain to you repeatedly that no one said Sidious would have intimate knowledge of Vitiate's abilities, but you were too keen on setting your own manufactured strawman ablaze. The bottom line is that what you conceded-- that Sidious would have historical knowledge of Vitiate-- is what was originally claimed by myself and Sidious66. Perhaps you could dial down the intent to give Vitiate some credibility, because your current tactics are not only not helping the pro-Vitiate case, they are in fact obstructing the discussion at hand, which is typical of strawman methods.

Tl;dr version: No one said Sidious would have deep knowledge of Vitiate's powers. What was claimed is that he would have historical knowledge of Vitiate's existence, giving Sidious more to work with than Vitiate would have. That you conceded this is great and hopefully we can carry on with the discussion.

So then basically it's who will mentally dominate who first. Is that what you're saying? If so, then Palpatine would be more prepared than Vitiate, since Palpatine would have some knowledge about Vitiate.

Read the part which indicates Sidious would have knowledge of Vitiate and his techniques, thereby being more prepared for Vitiate. Swing and a miss.. Again.. 😂

Edit: In case you plan on arguing that he simply meant Sidious would have knowledge of Vitiate, you wouldn't be able to conclude Sidious would be prepared for Vitiate unless he had some knowledge of Vitiate's techniques, not just his history.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Read the part which indicates Sidious would have knowledge of Vitiate and his techniques,

Me
but no one claimed that Sidious would have intimate knowledge of Vitiate's abilities or whatnot;

Me
I tried to explain to you repeatedly that no one said Sidious would have intimate knowledge of Vitiate's abilities,

Me
No one said Sidious would have deep knowledge of Vitiate's powers.

Edit: In case you plan on arguing that he simply meant Sidious would have knowledge of Vitiate, you wouldn't be able to conclude Sidious would be prepared for Vitiate unless he had some knowledge of Vitiate's techniques, not just his history.

Try it again. This time without the word "intimate" in there..

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Edit: In case you plan on arguing that he simply meant Sidious would have knowledge [b]of Vitiate, you wouldn't be able to conclude Sidious would be prepared for Vitiate unless he had some knowledge of Vitiate's techniques, not just his history. [/B]

Originally posted by Sidious66
If so, then Palpatine would be more prepared than Vitiate, since Palpatine would have some knowledge about Vitiate.

No one claimed that Sidious would be able to summon an adequate defense based on his knowledge of Vitiate, only that he would have more knowledge on Vitiate than Vitiate had on him, and therefore would enable him to be more prepared for Vitiate than Vitiate would be for him.

Having knowledge that Vitiate was the sith Emperor who existed 4,000 years ago won't prepare you for a battle. Having knowledge OF one or many of Vitiate's techniques would. Not sure why this has to be spelled out for you.