DE Sidious vs Sith Emperor

@ Lightsnake

You need to read the novel before you can form a valid opinion. Don't try to act smart.

Just one Dark Council member was able to handle Lord Scourge and Jedi Exile simultaneously, both of whom were no jokes in combat and were expert duelists. Jedi Exile specially has history of defeating powerful Sith Lords.

Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
? This one says otherwise.

You being literal with a source? No way!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@ Lightsnake

You need to read the novel before you can form a valid opinion. Don't try to act smart.

Just one Dark Council member was able to handle Lord Scourge and Jedi Exile simultaneously, both of whom were no jokes in combat and were expert duelists. Jedi Exile specially has history of defeating powerful Sith Lords.

No, she defeated Meetra Surik. Meetra Surik is the Jedi Exile with a full lobotomy and a Midichlorian drian. Only way one can explain her in that book.

Lol.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, she defeated Meetra Surik.

She fought both Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik simultaneously and overpowered both of them. She was about to kill them both when Revan stepped in.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Meetra Surik is the Jedi Exile with a full lobotomy and a Midichlorian drian. Only way one can explain her in that book.

[quote]LS
Palpatine doesn't throw out titles like candy.
You don't have rank or status in Palpatine's Dark Side Corps unless you earn in. Every member of the Emperor's Hands earned his or her title. You think a position like "Dark Side Elite" is for fun and games? The seven most powerful of Palpatine's servants?

DS
Oh, I see you're back to psychoanalyzing fictional characters as yet another last resort.

LS
We know that there were accomplished Sith Sorcerers like Cronal in Palpatine's ranks. Hell, Cronal 's official title amongst the acolytes was 'Palpatine's Monster Maker' for his talent with Sith Alchemy.

[quote]LS
["He raised a hand, as if in a magician's gesture. Outside, from one of the ungainly projections of the hull of the Wennis, there was a faint, fast squirt of brilliant life. Instantly it streaked toward a cluster of gigantic Oswaft who, since ceasing to fight, had been watching and listening. Sen and Fey were among them.

As the light point reached them, they began glowing a pale, sickly green and disappeared without a trace before their dying screams had faded."]

LS
In second and third books of The Lando Calrissian Adventures, numerous references are made to a "deadly green light" which Gepta used to destroy the Order of Tund, (after learning its secrets), as well as turn the entire planet Tund into a "sterile ball".

LS
And also, on the Electromagnetic torpedo:
The electromagnetic torpedo was a container for Rokur Gepta's most powerful Force technique, which was one of the strongest powers of the dark side. It was the greatest achievement of any of the Sorcerers of Tund.

DS
That tells us absolutely nothing.

And it should be noted that Oswaft measure over half a kilometer across each, make independent hyperspace jumps, and engage in single combat with battle cruisers.

[quote]LS
Jeng Droga: Nearly killed Kyle Katarn in Lightsaber combat

DS
OHHHHHH

More telling, I think, is that Droga himself was strong enough to serve as a vessel for the reborn Emperor's spirit in the absence of a suitable permanent host, and emerged from his tenure with neither the degenerative dementia or accelerated physical decay that crippled the rest. The Emperor himself knew it would take strength unique in that time to the Skywalker bloodline to adequately contain his energies; that Droga could so for a time and survive relatively unscathed indicates that his own gifts are not inconsiderable.

[quote]LS
Gethzerion: Killed an entire squad of storm troopers with....a flick of her finger

DS
Cool, a feat replicated by MANY others.

Your reasoning here reminds me of what Legend tries to do with his observations about non-TOR characters and their traits. They're "not invincible," or hardly "perfect," as if this establishes an unseen and exploitable degree of incompetence. Hardly a single demonstration of prescience, skill or power from any of the Sith Lords newly featured in The Old Republic has not been approximated by someone else at some other point in time. Is Nyriss' assault on Scourge and the Exile - her singular combat feat, if I'm to take the evidence presented at face value - rendered unimpressive because hordes of characters have doled out similar domination elsewhere? Is Revan's handling of her lightning not that big of a deal because individuals from Rahm Kota to Worror have done something like it, too, sometimes against more powerful Sith Lords?

Of course not. A feat does not need to be unique to be impressive. Lightsnake has never asserted that any of Palpatine's non-Sith minions - or in the case of Gethzerion [and I suppose Starkiller], unassociated contemporaries - are uniquely powerful, merely that they are powerful, often unusually so and to a degree that indicates they may well rival or surpass some of the Sith of another age, Dark Lords or otherwise. I find it very plausible that Gethzerion, Starkiller, Cronal, and Joruus could be on par with or stronger than members of the Dark Council.

SWL
Just one Dark Council member was able to handle Lord Scourge and Jedi Exile simultaneously, both of whom were no jokes in combat and were expert duelists.

Oh, yes, and one other detail I keep pointing out: Cronal is on the level of a Dark Lord of the Sith. While it might be Cronal overestimating himself, Shadows of Mindor states he was more skilled in the darkside than even Vader. He also states he views titles like 'Jedi, Sith, etc' as something wholly meaningless. He's not a Sith because he's too hardcore a darksider for them

Originally posted by Eminence
Your reasoning here reminds me of what Legend tries to do with his observations about non-TOR characters and their traits. They're "not invincible," or hardly "perfect," as if this establishes an unseen and exploitable degree of incompetence.

Here is an example:

I doubt that Mace Windu was powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with Palpatine. Yet he did because of advantage of Vaapad and Shatterpoint.

In comparison, Yoda did not had this advantage. He had greater experience and command of the Force then Mace Windu and this enabled him to go toe-to-toe with Palpatine.

However, if we consider the possible outcomes of both duels on fair basis; Mace Windu came closer to kill Palpatine then Master Yoda.

See the point?

The problem here is that the fans of PT/OT era characters tend to ignore the weaknesses and limitations of these characters and only consider their strengths in arguments. They fail to acknowledge the dynamic nature of Star Wars.

Originally posted by Eminence
Hardly a single demonstration of prescience, skill or power from any of the Sith Lords newly featured in The Old Republic has not been approximated by someone else at some other point in time.

Originally posted by Eminence
Is Nyriss' assault on Scourge and the Exile - her singular combat feat, if I'm to take the evidence presented at face value - rendered unimpressive because hordes of characters have doled out similar domination elsewhere?

Originally posted by Eminence
Is Revan's handling of her lightning not that big of a deal because individuals from Rahm Kota to Worror have done something like it, too, sometimes against more powerful Sith Lords?

And Worror turned out to be a joke when he engaged in open confrontation with the two powerful Sith Lords. Lsu was the only opponent worth noting and she was cut down through unfair means.

Rahm Kota was good but hardly an elite. It can be argued that Lord Scourge alone was better combatant. This guy was an expert swordsman demonstrating Juyo, Ataru, and Soresu, and easily switching between these combat Forms amidst the duels. Revan noted that this guy had brilliant potential. Lord Scourge could also fight in extreme environmental conditions. He singlehandidly took care of an old Dark Council member and his two finest warriors by himself in a duel. And not to forget that Lord Scourge was well noted in the Empire for his exploits in battles outside of Kaas planet.

Originally posted by Eminence
Of course not. A feat does not need to be unique to be impressive.

Originally posted by Eminence
Lightsnake has never asserted that any of Palpatine's non-Sith minions - or in the case of Gethzerion [and I suppose Starkiller], unassociated contemporaries - are uniquely powerful, merely that they are powerful, often unusually so and to a degree that indicates they may well rival or surpass some of the Sith of another age, Dark Lords or otherwise. I find it very plausible that Gethzerion, Starkiller, Cronal, and Joruus could be on par with or stronger than members of the Dark Council.

Originally posted by Eminence
And then there's this ridiculous line of reasoning. Darth Nyriss is clearly an uncommonly formidable Force-user, but her might doesn't associatively reflect on her peers on the Dark Council any more than that of Mace Windu or Yoda upon Coleman Trebor or Yarael Poof, a fact illustrated unambiguously by the Jedi assault on Chancellor Palpatine.

Regardless of weak and strong argument; the collective might of 10 or 12 Dark Council members would have been incredible.

Some people just can't quit while they're behind.

Also

Your habit of calling others out on exaggerated or altogether nonexistent faults notwithstanding

This begs for proof.

Is Revan's handling of her lightning not that big of a deal because individuals from Rahm Kota to Worror have done something like it, too, sometimes against more powerful Sith Lords?

What more powerful sith lords?Also, your main fault is comparing my argument to SWL. I never asserted that it's impossible for some members during the Galactic Empire to be more powerful than some of the Dark Council. Sure, it's possible. But given what we know based on Lightsnake's argument, it's highly unlikely that anyone other than that Nightsister woman or Marek have any showings worthy of comparison. I really want to use the TOR game for these dark lords and their ridiculous feats but it's a beta so that'll be the winning argument after the game is released.

Originally posted by Kotor3
All out.

Darth Sidious without question.

Vitiate may pose a threat to Sidious in the force, but there is nothing to indicate that he can even stand up to Sidious in a lightsaber duel, which is what it may have to come down to.

Without question? Hardly. He does have more feats to his name.

Yes, without question. There is no way Vitiate can simply over come Sidious with the force (if he can overcome him at all. I still say DE Sidious is the superior force user); however, without Vitiate having much experience with a saber, Sidious would butcher him.

Don't think you're an authority of who Vitiate can overcome with the force. You saying no way is the same thing as me saying yes way and it means the same thing. But there are too many unknowns so the discussion is moot.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Don't think you're an authority of who Vitiate can overcome with the force. You saying no way is the same thing as me saying yes way and it means the same thing. But there are too many unknowns so the discussion is moot.

This is an all out battle though. Even if he can overcome Sidious in a force battle, it would take a lot of effort to do.

If you want to debate their power in the force, we can do that. But the all out goes to Sidious hands down, especially if Vitiate is not an experienced lightsaber duelist.

I'd give the saber fight to sidious.

Drew finally emailed me back.

I wrote:

> Hi Mr. Karpyshyn, I just wanted to bring one thing to your attention after
> reading your novel today. It seems you messed up on the math. When Darth
> Nyriss tells Scourge that the Emperor is "almost 1,000 years old", and
> that he was born a few decades before the Great Hyperspace War, the math
> fails. I'm assuming the year in the book is around 3,958-3,954 or so. The
> Great Hyperspace War was in 5,000 BBY which already makes him much older
> than 1,000 years old. But then it states that the sith Emperor was crowned
> by Ragnos, and lived on his planet for 100 years until Ragnos died and the
> hyperspace war began. At any rate, substituting "almost" for "more than"
> would have made more sense. Just my two cents.
>
> -Dave

He wrote:

Hey, Dave. (Call me Drew, by the way.)

What can I say - you're right. I must have whiffed on this. Either I made
a mistake and my editor never caught it, or my editor tweaked the original
manuscript for some reason. Probably my mistake, not hers.

I might have gotten mixed up between KOTOR and SWTOR. If I was writing
this part late at night, my tired brain might have said "SWTOR is 1,000
years after the Great Hyperspace War, but KOTOR is 300 years before that",
instead of "KOTOR is 1,000 years after the Great Hyperspace War, and SWTOR
is another 300 years after that".

Anyway, chalk it up to author error. Or the character of Nyriss just
getting careless with her choice of words.

Drew

So... he doesn't have an editor.

Have you READ his books?

No, yeah, I know. Obvious answer.

Question is how do you mix up KOTOR and swtor when you were largely responsible for the creation of both.