DE Sidious vs Sith Emperor

Started by Stealth Moose28 pages
Stealth Moose Umbrella Elite

To be fair, I can't exactly recall every single detail of every fictional character I've created.

But we're mostly full or part time SW debaters, and we're specifically trained to nitpick everything to death, catching inaccuracies so that we can crush the competition.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

That sounds alot cooler than 'we're nerds.'

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Which we are.

Stealth Moose Umbrella Elite

There's always another group we can cite as being worse. That's what helps us sleep at night. Well, for Gideon there's that Sidious full body pillow.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Trekkies and sports fans. Bunch o' weirdos.

Dr McBeefington Restricted
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
There's always another group we can cite as being worse. That's what helps us sleep at night. Well, for Gideon there's that Sidious full body pillow.

I was going to go with the Sidious vibrator.

RevanSpoilers Restricted

Just because your "fiancée" prefers the company of other {real} men and/or vibrators and/or farm animals doesn't mean that the rest of us share her inclination.

It certainly isn't my fault that the guy Janus fantasizes about has twenty years on Ian McDiarmid and guy you fantasize about isn't even human.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Whether or not my fiance prefer's a vibrator is irrelevant to your sexual stimulant preference.

Eminence Boss

DS
What more powerful sith lords?

Palpatine and Bane. The "from" was deliberately inclusive of everyone relevant who wasn't Kota or Worror, too.

But you both missed the point, which I think we'll let go, and neglected to answer my question:

[quote]LS
Gethzerion: Killed an entire squad of storm troopers with....a flick of her finger

DS
Cool, a feat replicated by MANY others.

E
Stretching that a bit, Emperor Palpatine and Starkiller come to mind. Distinguished company. Who else?
[/quote]

DS
Also, your main fault is comparing my argument to SWL.

No, you just don't understand what it was you were supposed to glean from the comparison. Read it again twice, and while drunk, please.

DS
I never asserted that it's impossible for some members during the Galactic Empire to be more powerful than some of the Dark Council.

Your stance on the matter is clear:

DS
[quote]Sure, lets compare dark side adepts to full fledged dark lords.

Seeing as how they're just adepts and nothing more, compared to dark lords of the sith who command various myriads of force techniques (and no i don't need to specify), there's no real comparison here.

There's nothing suggesting these adepts were anywhere near the level of the dark lords of the true sith empire.

Yea, they've shown power beyond these dark side adepts so unless you have ANY kind of evidence that they're even on par with these darths, you lose..
[/quote]
That last one's particularly important, because they haven't. We have seen two members of that Dark Council in combat, and it will suffice to say that ten members of the Council have not shown power beyond any of the dark side adepts in question, and the set of inferences we can make on their abilities from what implications exist in the text does not include the idea that they have power beyond all of the dark side adepts in question.

DS
Sure, it's possible. But given what we know based on Lightsnake's argument, it's highly unlikely that anyone other than that Nightsister woman or Marek have any showings worthy of comparison.

I'd argue that Joruus, Kadann and Cronal are all contenders as well. If we're being honest here they all have considerably more to their names than the inferences you're making for the Sith based on what must have been a very selective reading of Revan. Xedrix, the senior member of the Dark Council, is at the time of his death so enfeebled by age and the ravaging effects of the dark side that his reserves of power are emptied by the gathering of energy for a single gout of lightning; this assault rips through Scourge's defense but ultimately keeps him off his feet for mere moments. Xedrix, literally powerless, is then promptly executed.

Even if I were to generously propose that such infirmity is unique among his peers to him, that his "enormous" (per Scourge) power is not, and that as such any of them would have performed more admirably in that situation, this sets a far lower bar for maintenance of status on the Council than you'd have me believe. Lord Scourge admits that even a warrior as formidable as he wouldn't have a chance at selection before spending years establishing his name and lobbying for influence, and his discussions with Nyriss confirm that much of the strife council members deal with originates from political and economic subterfuge rather than any overt contest in combat. The truth is that while a place on the council carries with it an implication of uncommon Force-sensitivity (again, per Scourge), it is a guarantee first and foremost of bureaucratic and conspiratorial prowess and not of consistently formidable ability in combat.

DS
I really want to use the TOR game for these dark lords and their ridiculous feats but it's a beta so that'll be the winning argument after the game is released.

Given that it'll take place roughly three hundred years after their collective deaths I find it exceedingly unlikely that they'll be afforded any such retrospection. Don't hold your breath.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Eminence
Palpatine and Bane. The "from" was deliberately inclusive of everyone relevant who wasn't Kota or Worror, too.

Fair enough.

I want to list examples from the new video games, what these overpowered sith lords are capable of.


Your stance on the matter is clear:

I don't think it is, so unless you elaborate I'll take that as filler material. I've made it clear where I stand and where I differ from SWL.


That last one's particularly important, because they haven't. We have seen two members of that Dark Council in combat, and it will suffice to say that ten members of the Council have not shown power beyond any of the dark side adepts in question, and the set of inferences we can make on their abilities from what implications exist in the text does not include the idea that they have power beyond all of the dark side adepts in question.

Because we've seen one dark council member, it's fair to assume the others have powers around that range. I'm essentially dealing with less material but you almost make it seem that those with more feats to their names equates to victory for those characters. But I would argue that the one force blast from Xedrix is enough to kill force users. Scourge's armor was virtually destroyed and his injuries were considerable even from that one force blast.

I'd argue that Joruus, Kadann and Cronal are all contenders as well. If we're being honest here they all have considerably more to their names than the inferences you're making for the Sith based on what must have been a very selective reading of Revan. Xedrix, the senior member of the Dark Council, is at the time of his death so enfeebled by age and the ravaging effects of the dark side that his reserves of power are emptied by the gathering of energy for a single gout of lightning; this assault rips through Scourge's defense but ultimately keeps him off his feet for mere moments. Xedrix, literally powerless, is then promptly executed.

I'm now familiar with relevant combat applications or martial prowess of those characters. I remember the most important thing Joruus did was mind link a few thousand crew members. And yes, Xedrix is the weakest member of the dark council but I suppose my biggest fault is including knowledge from a game nobody else here has played, which is what I'm going on, not the Revan novel. And the reason I include it while it's a beta is because most of those cut scenes (if not all), won't change. Based on 2-3 builds already, the only thing that seems to change is Revan's status after the flashpoint and the Emperor's final duel.

Even if I were to generously propose that such infirmity is unique among his peers to him, that his "enormous" (per Scourge) power is not, and that as such any of them would have performed more admirably in that situation, this sets a far lower bar for maintenance of status on the Council than you'd have me believe. Lord Scourge admits that even a warrior as formidable as he wouldn't have a chance at selection before spending years establishing his name and lobbying for influence, and his discussions with Nyriss confirm that much of the strife council members deal with originates from political and economic subterfuge rather than any overt contest in combat. The truth is that while a place on the council carries with it an implication of uncommon Force-sensitivity (again, per Scourge), it is a guarantee first and foremost of bureaucratic and conspiratorial prowess and not of consistently formidable ability in combat.

There is a certain battle ritual that has happened a few times on Kaas City in the game, over the past few thousand years, that has almost destroyed the planet. The ritual occurs usually between two dark council members. Maybe Janus could help me with the name of it but it's a pretty big part of the history of Dromund Kaas. Mix that in with the amount of sick force feats in the Dark Temple and you have the makings of some incredibly powerful sith, past and present. Obviously, again, this may be premature in a debate where only 1-2 people have actually played the game.

Given that it'll take place roughly three hundred years after their collective deaths I find it exceedingly unlikely that they'll be afforded any such retrospection. Don't hold your breath. [/B]

Referring to the current dark council members, as well as their underlings.

Also, not that it matters anymore but you haven't answered MY question as to how I'm misusing certain terms.

Eminence Boss

DS
Fair enough.

I want to list examples from the new video games, what these overpowered sith lords are capable of.


Those overpowered Sith Lords aren't the ones we're discussing; the Dark Council circa TOR is comprised entirely of different people than the one in Revan.

DS
I don't think it is, so unless you elaborate I'll take that as filler material.

?

I just posted four of your own appraisals of the adepts relative to the members of the Dark Council. Unless you haven't been accurately representing your stance I know exactly what it is.

DS
I've made it clear where I stand and where I differ from SWL.

Again: you missed the point. I wasn't comparing your stance on the Dark Council to Legend's stance on the Dark Council, I was noting a similarity between how you insinuated virtual ubiquity of a feat among higher end Force-users, from which follows a lack of significance, to the way Legend asserts that characters like Vader or Bane are imperfect and fallible in a manner intended to undermine any case being made for them. It's a weak front.

Honestly, just don't worry about it. It's an issue tangential to something that isn't the focus of this discussion and not worth getting mixed up about.

But you still haven't answered my question.

DS
Because we've seen one dark council member, it's fair to assume the others have powers around that range.

Eminence: Legend
And then there's this ridiculous line of reasoning. Darth Nyriss is clearly an uncommonly formidable Force-user, but her might doesn't associatively reflect on her peers on the Dark Council any more than that of Mace Windu or Yoda upon Coleman Trebor or Yarael Poof, a fact illustrated unambiguously by the Jedi assault on Chancellor Palpatine.

Your model has discrepancies of its own anyway, namely that we've seen two dark council members miles apart in ability and your estimation only takes into account the stronger one.

DS
I'm essentially dealing with less material but you almost make it seem that those with more feats to their names equates to victory for those characters.

No, simply that they have enough to their name that we can make inferences just as you have, but they're less nebulous because we have more to work with.

DS
But I would argue that the one force blast from Xedrix is enough to kill force users.

It's enough to kill some, sure. But you need to keep in mind that he required the intervention of two of his acolytes to keep distance and steal time with which to gather the power - all of it - for that one attack, and there are many far stronger than Lord Scourge whose defenses probably wouldn't be shredded so easily to begin with.

DS
Scourge's armor was virtually destroyed and his injuries were considerable even from that one force blast.

There's no mention of damage to his armor, but yes, he does suffer burns and a great deal of pain. Still, he's on his feet in a few moments.

DS
I'm now familiar with relevant combat applications or martial prowess of those characters. I remember the most important thing Joruus did was mind link a few thousand crew members. And yes, Xedrix is the weakest member of the dark council but I suppose my biggest fault is including knowledge from a game nobody else here has played, which is what I'm going on, not the Revan novel. And the reason I include it while it's a beta is because most of those cut scenes (if not all), won't change. Based on 2-3 builds already, the only thing that seems to change is Revan's status after the flashpoint and the Emperor's final duel.

Once more: those are not the same Dark Lords. This is like comparing the KOTOR Jedi High Council to that of the PT. It doesn't work.

DS
There is a certain battle ritual that has happened a few times on Kaas City in the game, over the past few thousand years, that has almost destroyed the planet. The ritual occurs usually between two dark council members. Maybe Janus could help me with the name of it but it's a pretty big part of the history of Dromund Kaas.

Remember to share the specifics when you find them.

DS
Also, not that it matters anymore but you haven't answered MY question as to how I'm misusing certain terms.

I will, later. I have the final draft of a term paper to turn in tonight and haven't been following you closely enough over the past few months to recall past examples of the behavior in question; I will dig through the Battle Bar later this week to find our last discussion, where the most recent case in memory lies.

Don't worry about that for now.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Eminence
Those overpowered Sith Lords aren't the ones we're discussing; the Dark Council circa TOR is comprised entirely of different people than the one in Revan.

Maybe I need to clarify that when I was talking about the Dark Council, I was overlapping the time periods intentionally.


I just posted four of your own appraisals of the adepts relative to the members of the Dark Council. Unless you haven't been accurately representing your stance I know exactly what it is.

No, my stance was that it's certainly possible that some of these adepts were more powerful than some of the Dark Council members, while you initially claimed that my stance didn't allow for that possibility.

Again: you missed the point. I wasn't comparing your stance on the Dark Council to Legend's stance on the Dark Council, I was noting a similarity between how you insinuated virtual ubiquity of a feat among higher end Force-users, from which follows a lack of significance, to the way Legend asserts that characters like Vader or Bane are imperfect and fallible in a manner intended to undermine any case being made for them. It's a weak front.

But I give credit where credit is due. In this case it's martial prowess or relevant combat experience. Certainly you don't expect anything less when someone is trying to use the destruction of someone like Ood Bnar to attempt to prove someone else's power level? MOST of the examples were either nothing but obscure quotes, or force abilities that didn't involve combat. I'd say my response, while not being the best, was a pretty standard rebuttal.

Honestly, just don't worry about it. It's an issue tangential to something that isn't the focus of this discussion and not worth getting mixed up about.

But you still haven't answered my question.

I'm trying to go back to Dromund Kaas and play some of that stuff over so I can be quite specific to answer your question. I'll probably need some help from Janus who's playing as an Inquisitor on or about the Dromund Kaas level.

Your model has discrepancies of its own anyway, namely that we've seen two dark council members miles apart in ability and your estimation only takes into account the stronger one.

Sure, but my argument is based primarily on combat prowess, which despite what you might think about their political maneuverings, is what the Dark Council excels at.

Once more: those are not the same Dark Lords. This is like comparing the KOTOR Jedi High Council to that of the PT. It doesn't work.

Well then, I will refine my position to use the Dark Council whom we do have information on.

Remember to share the specifics when you find them.

I will, with the help of Janus.

I will, later. I have the final draft of a term paper to turn in tonight and haven't been following you closely enough over the past few months to recall past examples of the behavior in question; I will dig through the Battle Bar later this week to find our last discussion, where the most recent case in memory lies.

Don't worry about that for now. [/B]


You didn't have to make the unsupported bolded claim then if you're just admitting that you haven't followed my posts closely.

Eminence Boss

DS
Maybe I need to clarify that when I was talking about the Dark Council, I was overlapping the time periods intentionally.

You shouldn't have been, but if you'd rather shift the discussion to the later time period I don't have anything to say about it. You've said you and Janus can compile information about them down the line, and that's fine; I'm not making claims about those guys one way or another.

DS
No, my stance was that it's certainly possible that some of these adepts were more powerful than some of the Dark Council members,

Good.

DS
while you initially claimed that my stance didn't allow for that possibility.

I never claimed anything of the sort. You need to read more carefully and keep a bead on context, DS.

DS
I'm trying to go back to Dromund Kaas and play some of that stuff over so I can be quite specific to answer your question. I'll probably need some help from Janus who's playing as an Inquisitor on or about the Dromund Kaas level.

The question was about what other Force-users had replicated - or, in keeping with my standards and to make it easier for you, approximated - the obliteration of a stormtrooper squad with the "flick of a finger." Fourth time now.

DS
Sure, but my argument is based primarily on combat prowess, which despite what you might think about their political maneuverings, is what the Dark Council excels at.

Are you referring to the TOR Council now? Because what I think about the Council in Revan has basis in the text, DS, and I've cited it appropriately. If you're not interested in rebutting that with material from the same text and would rather focus on the TOR Sith, then do it, but delineate appropriately and don't make clams about one based on yet-to-be-seen evidence that only says anything about the other.

DS
Well then, I will refine my position to use the Dark Council whom we do have information on.

That's fine, but then it's a different argument, and one that I've never tackled because for a plethora of reasons I can't judge that Council the same way as the older one.

DS
You didn't have to make the unsupported bolded claim then if you're just admitting that you haven't followed my posts closely.

But I haven't admitted anything like that. What I said was that you have a history of doing something and that, given that I haven't really been here as of late, the most recent historical example of such behavior I can recall lies buried under several dozen pages of mod activity. I will find it when I have the time, which will be very soon.

Now, for what's left of this topic you need to address what I'm saying and not the most convenient strawman, understood? Let's not run this in circles.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Eminence
You shouldn't have been, but if you'd rather shift the discussion to the later time period I don't have anything to say about it. You've said you and Janus can compile information about them down the line, and that's fine; I'm not making claims about those guys one way or another.

Then I should have made that position known from the very beginning.

I never claimed anything of the sort. You need to read more carefully and keep a bead on context, DS.

I have. If you recall, this is what I said:

I never asserted that it's impossible for some members during the Galactic Empire to be more powerful than some of the Dark Council.

To which you responded with:

Your stance on the matter is clear:

As if to say "no, that isn't your stance. So if that wasn't my stance, then the only other stance I could possibly have involves the adepts having no chance against the members of the dark council.

The question was about what other Force-users had replicated - or, in keeping with my standards and to make it easier for you, approximated - the obliteration of a stormtrooper squad with the "flick of a finger." Fourth time now.

I've already addressed this twice saying I need to go back to dromund kaas so I can be specific with a comparable feat.

Are you referring to the TOR Council now? Because what I think about the Council in Revan has basis in the text, DS, and I've cited it appropriately. If you're not interested in rebutting that with material from the same text and would rather focus on the TOR Sith, then do it, but delineate appropriately and don't make clams about one based on yet-to-be-seen evidence that only says anything about the other.

Again, I grouped the dark council from Revan and the games. I should have been more clear and I intend to be as I finish playing my character. The feats I have seen were ridiculous but I'll need the exact feat on the exact planet to be specific.

But I haven't admitted anything like that. What I said was that you have a history of doing something and that, given that I haven't really been here as of late, the most recent historical example of such behavior I can recall lies buried under several dozen pages of mod activity. I will find it when I have the time, which will be very soon.

Now, for what's left of this topic you need to address what I'm saying and not the most convenient strawman, understood? Let's not run this in circles. [/B]


notsreifsrs about strawman

Your habit of calling others out on exaggerated or altogether nonexistent faults notwithstanding

Where is this strawman?

Eminence Boss

DS
I have. If you recall, this is what I said:

To which you responded with:

As if to say "no, that isn't your stance.

So if that wasn't my stance, then the only other stance I could possibly have involves the adepts having [b] no chance against the members of the dark council.[/b]


No DS, it means that you have made it explicitly clear that you don't think there is much merit to the idea that more than two of the Imperial-era adepts Lightsnake listed could be compared to members of the Dark Council, and that's after prodding from me. You're trying to retroactively doctor your case with a degree of flexibility that was not expressed before I got involved. Literally nowhere have I remotely mischaracterized facets of your stance as they were was expressed.

DS
I've already addressed this [b]twice saying I need to go back to dromund kaas so I can be specific with a comparable feat.[/b]

Unless this yields "MANY" specific and comparable feats, DS, you will not have adequately supplanted your earlier assertion, and unless these feats are performed by individuals of relatively minor ability you won't have actually made any progress on the original point.

DS
notsreifsrs about strawman


[quote]E
Your habit of calling others out on exaggerated or altogether nonexistent faults notwithstanding, it is evident that you don't know what psychoanalysis is.

E
I have the final draft of a term paper to turn in tonight and haven't been following you closely enough over the past few months to recall past examples of the behavior in question; I will dig through the Battle Bar later this week to find our last discussion, where the most recent case in memory lies.

DS
You didn't have to make the unsupported bolded claim then if you're just admitting that you haven't followed my posts closely.
[/quote]
That I haven't followed your posts closely over the past few months - largely because I have scarcely been here over the past few months - does not mean that I have not followed your posts closely enough during periods of activity prior to the past few months to have seen adequate evidence of your tendency to make unfounded and misleading charges.

Once more:

E
What I said was that you have a history of doing something and that, given that I haven't really been here as of late, the most recent historical example of such behavior I can recall lies buried under several dozen pages of mod activity. I will find it when I have the time, which will be very soon.

Capiche?

DS
Where is this strawman?

... I don't get it?

But there are examples in the first few pages of this thread - all directed at Lightsnake, of course - of you making false claims

[quote]LS
Palpatine doesn't throw out titles like candy.
You don't have rank or status in Palpatine's Dark Side Corps unless you earn in. Every member of the Emperor's Hands earned his or her title. You think a position like "Dark Side Elite" is for fun and games? The seven most powerful of Palpatine's servants?

DS
Oh, I see you're back to psychoanalyzing fictional characters as yet another last resort.
[/quote]

or blatantly strawmanning yourself

[quote]LS
I love how you kept flaunting out how Vitiate is so amazing for 1000 years of whatever, but Arden is 25 times that.

DS
He is now saying that Arden Lynn is more impressive because she survived for 25,000 years, than the 1,400 year old immortal empire. Yes, that is not a typo.
[/quote]
so if you don't mind more recent examples being cited neither do I.

But it seems we've already completely dropped the topic in favor of examining polemical flaws, which rarely goes anywhere productive but a discussion of what you're doing with your life and how when you're here you only really argue stances that you think are weak to begin with, so...

about Assassin's Creed.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

I will get back to you when I finish playing my character storyline. But while I'm here I might as well address this:

or blatantly strawmanning yourself
I love how you kept flaunting out how Vitiate is so amazing for 1000 years of whatever, but Arden is 25 times that.
He is now saying that Arden Lynn is more impressive because she survived for 25,000 years, than the 1,400 year old immortal empire. Yes, that is not a typo.

If you somehow see a difference between what I said and what he said, or that I somehow misrepresented his position, then either you're experimenting too much in college or we're on different wavelengths as far as reading comprehension is concerned.

The interesting thing is you're trying to focus on my alleged strawmans while completely ignoring Lightsnake's actual strawmans.

And I already have a pirated copy of Revelations on PC. About to start playing it. And yes it's going to be godly.

Eminence Boss

DS
If you somehow see a difference between what I said and what he said, or that I somehow misrepresented his position, then either you're experimenting too much in college or we're on different wavelengths as far as reading comprehension is concerned.

They're not mutually exclusive, you know, but option B is and always has been painfully true.

But the straw man is such because LS was using that logic to mock you. Yes, he does attach greatly misattributed significance to Lyn's age, but he only ever makes a direct comparison to the Sith Emperor in that instance; he's not trying to milk it for more than a dig at you and he clearly doesn't actually believe that Lyn is greater than the Sith Emperor because she's older.

DS
The interesting thing is you're trying to focus on my alleged strawmans while completely ignoring Lightsnake's [b]actual strawmans.[/b]

Why are those relevant to me? You've pointed them out, right?

DS
And I already have a pirated copy of Revelations on PC. About to start playing it. And yes it's going to be godly.

skyrim

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

This was a strange argument.

Eminence Boss

The politeness on his end?

Bitch knows his place.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Eminence
[B]They're not mutually exclusive, you know, but option B is and always has been painfully true.

But the straw man is such because LS was using that logic to mock you. Yes, he does attach greatly misattributed significance to Lyn's age, but he only ever makes a direct comparison to the Sith Emperor in that instance; he's not trying to milk it for more than a dig at you and he clearly doesn't actually believe that Lyn is greater than the Sith Emperor because she's older.


That's a strawman? By claiming LS was being facetious and as a result, THATS not a strawman but somehow my statement is? You have got to be kidding me faunus. I want what you're smoking. Btw, he sounded dead serious.

You have GOT to do better than that. At least make sense when you're defending someone, not illogical excuses.

Btw, the fact that you don't find a distinction between actually being immortal and living for 1,00 years, and happening to be in some kind of stasis for 25,000 years, concerns me.