DE Sidious vs Sith Emperor

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He failed to dominate Revan's will a second time, so there is no way he would be able to dominate Darth Sidious' will. Sidious is at least on par with Vitiate in mental abilities, being able to mind-screw millions of Coruscanti, and then later mentally dominate an entire planet with a population of about 20 billion. And if you want to use rituals, well prior to the events of ROTS, Sidious used a ritual that manipulated the anxieties of probably every force user in the galaxy, and also served to increase Anakin's hunger for power.

I don't see any way for Vitiate to win. I would be willing to say someone like Darth Bane would give Sidious more of a challenge in combat then Vitiate. Vitiate does not have any saber feats, and has probably never even used one in combat. [/B]

Luckily Sidious has probably the largest knowledge base in the mythos. And given how much he stole from Vitiates Empire, I'd say that he is quite well versed in the TOR era.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Please show us exactly what Sidious knows about Vitiate's empire. And explain how the largest knowledge base translates into power.

Are you kidding? His Empire is pretty much a carbon copy of the TOR-era version, right down to ship design and titles such as Moff. He is obviously well versed in it.

As my good friend Gideon told me not yesterday the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia dictates that only through intense study and discipline can one master the Force. Obviously one becomes more dangerous the more one achieves mastery of the Force, commands more powers and is more knowledgable about their art.

And I'm frankly baffled that you would even ask me that. Has not one of your greatest arguments for Revans power been that he plundered the Sith Academy on Malachor?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you kidding? His Empire is pretty much a carbon copy of the TOR-era version, right down to ship design and titles such as Moff. He is obviously well versed in it.

As my good friend Gideon told me not yesterday the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia dictates that only through intense study and discipline can one master the Force. Obviously one becomes more dangerous the more one achieves mastery of the Force, commands more powers and is more knowledgable about their art.

And I'm frankly baffled that you would even ask me that. Has not one of your greatest arguments for Revans power been that he plundered the Sith Academy on Malachor? [/B]

it certainly isn't conclusive enough to give vitiate a win over arguably the most powerful sith in the mythos. Revan is the ONLY example of a top-tier sith being completely mindfvcked. (Caedus is another, actually...) What are the chances that a fight between Sidious and Vitiate ends with a mind-domination? That didn't even take the Exile out of her fight with Vitiate, and the Exile was definitly set up in the novel to be a first class chump.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
No thanks to the copycats of bioware, but the only thing he can be reasonably versed in is the governmental structure. He doesn't have a dark council or thousands of sith lords.

Unless you can quantify just how much Sidious studied, you can't use that as evidence of his supposed superiority.

Yea, and the fact that his inferiors (those he trained) possessed certain skills therefore he must have them also. But your argument structured around Sidious' knowledge base. That's not conclusive enough to win in a fight against another heavy hitter.

Yeah, I agree. Its pretty ironic that they copied everything about Sidious' Empire but becuase TOR is earlier in the timeline in looks like Sidious copied everything of theirs instead. However, what I am saying is that Sidious obviously studied the TOR-era Empire in some detail, enough so that he encorporated their ideas into his own plans. Do you honestly think he wouldn't even glance at the Sith Emperor while doing so? Considering how powerful the Emperor is, and considering that he demonstrated proficiency with immortality, an area in which Palpatine was very interested in, I'd say that its very likely that he knew at least about the mans capabilities.

Will this do?

I never said that it was. But LeGenD made the point that those who are unprepared against the Sith Emperor are in trouble. I merely replied that given Sidious' massive knowledge base, his intensive studies and the fact that he is intimately familiar with Vitiate and his Empire that it would be disingenuous to say that Sidious would not be familiar with his capabilities.

Yeah, I agree. Its pretty ironic that they copied everything about Sidious' Empire but becuase TOR is earlier in the timeline in looks like Sidious copied everything of theirs instead. However, what I am saying is that Sidious obviously studied the TOR-era Empire in some detail, enough so that he encorporated their ideas into his own plans. Do you honestly think he wouldn't even glance at the Sith Emperor while doing so? Considering how powerful the Emperor is, and considering that he demonstrated proficiency with immortality, an area in which Palpatine was very interested in, I'd say that its very likely that he knew at least about the mans capabilities.

I never said that it was. But LeGenD made the point that those who are unprepared against the Sith Emperor are in trouble. I merely replied that given Sidious' massive knowledge base, his intensive studies and the fact that he is intimately familiar with Vitiate and his Empire that it would be disingenuous to say that Sidious would not be familiar with his capabilities.

I would argue that the latter would be more likely than the other.

Especially given Scourges defection to the Republic. I'd say that he would obviously have been briefed on the capabilities of his old master as well as anything else he'd know about the Sith Empires capabilities. Also I imagine that the Unnamed Jedi Knight who defeated Vitiate would be asked to make at least a corsory report on what happened in the duel.

oh, vitiate was unable to overwhelm the mind of the Revan of the novel, and therefore the version of Revan that finished KOTOR. it was pre-Kotor, weaker Revan, who was unable to defend his mind from Vitiate, and as he says to Scourge, Vitiate was unable to completely overwhelm the mind of EVEN that Revan, since both he and Malak returned to Republic space and warped the instructions that came from Vitiate until he was no longer in control.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Where did he mind screw millions?

During the burial of the HIMS Lusankya beneath the surface of Coruscant, Emperor Palpatine used the Force to obsfucate the minds of Coruscant's population, compelling them to forget. (The New Essential Guide to Characters, pg. 83)

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Dominate an entire planet?

Byss and the Deep Core and The Essential Atlas indicate that the Emperor first used the Force to mentally subjugate the population before he leeched off their life energies.

Exact quotes please? And what do you mean by mentally subjugate? The only time we see Byss is what, during DE while everyone is living out their lives? He did nothing but drain their life energies for whatever reason, as it didn't grant him any level of immortality.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Exact quotes please?

You'll have them tonight.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Exact quotes please?

The New Essential Guide to Characters, pg. 83
[Ysanne Isard] renamed the vessel the Lusankya and, with help from the Emperor's mind-fogging powers, Imperial engineers buried the tremendous battleship beneath the cityscape in Coruscant's Manarai Mountain district.

Byss and the Deep Core
Once the populace had settled into their new lives in an Imperial utopia, the Emperor initiated his true plans for the world. Slowly but steadily, he used his dark Force powers to enslave the people on the world and drain their life energies to fuel his own vile experiments.

I don't have the Atlas on hand and my attempts to search for the quote here have remained fruitless, but I should be able to provide it by the end of the week if these are unsatisfactory.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And what do you mean by mentally subjugate?

Enslave, place under his thrall, zombify, any manner of colorful synonym.

Byss and the Deep Core
Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's evil machinations.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The only time we see Byss is what, during DE while everyone is living out their lives? He did nothing but drain their life energies for whatever reason, as it didn't grant him any level of immortality.

That Palpatine didn't achieve immortality is neither contested nor actually debated.

So explain to me the idea that he can allegedly mind warp 2 trillion, yet he isn't able to overcome a single jedi in Windu or Yoda. Unless Windu and Yoda have mindpowers superior to 2 trillion people, I don't see how that makes any sense. Also, Vitiate did it to hundreds of sith lords.. Force users.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
So explain to me the idea that he can allegedly mind warp 2 trillion, yet he isn't able to overcome a single jedi in Windu or Yoda.

I'd like to direct you the words of a seemingly enlightened individual; you may find them familiar:

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
1. It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what's there

While I certainly have what I believe to be superbly thought opinions on this matter, they unfortunately have very little canon standing.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Unless Windu and Yoda have mindpowers superior to 2 trillion people, I don't see how that makes any sense. Also, Vitiate did it to hundreds of sith lords.. Force users.

Second and more importantly, you do realize that one could pose a similar question to you about Vitiate. If, for example, he was able to cloud the minds of these powerful Force users, why then are the likes of Nyriss able to plot against him? Why was he forced to execute the Dark Council, if he could simply force their cooperation (pun intended)?

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I'd like to direct you the words of a seemingly enlightened individual; you may find them familiar:

While I certainly have what I believe to be superbly thought opinions on this matter, they unfortunately have very little canon standing.

It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what's there and what can reasonably be assumed.

Second and more importantly, you do realize that one could pose a similar question to you about Vitiate. If, for example, he was able to cloud the minds of these powerful Force users, why then are the likes of Nyriss able to plot against him? Why was he forced to execute the Dark Council, if he could simply force their cooperation (pun intended)? [/B]

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I guessed you missed the part about reasonable assumptions, and instead highlighted one part of my statement.

I didn't miss it.
As I said, I have my opinions. First, Palpatine did use the Force to influence the likes of Yoda and Windu. Second, the manipulations of Byss and Coruscant occurred after he began his two decade study of the Force, which would naturally yield great gains in Force mastery. Third, both manipulations likely required time or at least enormous preparation on Sidious's part.

Without time and preparation and the benefit of extensive study in the Force, it's conceivable that Sidious would face enormous difficulty if not outright impossibility trying to mentally subjugate the likes of Yoda or Windu.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Why force their cooperation when you can kill them all and instead put 12 loyal supporters on the council?

Vitiate had them killed because he perceived them to be dangerous to his designs. I see no reason why he would be unable to impose his will on the Council; it would serve his purposes greater and remove any question of disloyalty. Unless, of course, there are limitations to this power.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
So explain to me the idea that he can allegedly mind warp 2 trillion, yet he isn't able to overcome a single jedi in Windu or Yoda. Unless Windu and Yoda have mindpowers superior to 2 trillion people, I don't see how that makes any sense. Also, Vitiate did it to hundreds of sith lords.. Force users.

wait, why didn't vitiate just overcome a single jedi knight instead of dying?

Originally posted by truejedi
wait, why didn't vitiate just overcome a single jedi knight instead of dying?

That's essentially what I'm getting at. The fact that Sidious didn't just mind-warp the Jedi Council into committing mass suicide or that Vitiate didn't subjugate the Dark Council or the other myriad of examples of critical times that they failed to utilize these powers when they could have been highly useful indicate that there are limitations imposed on these emperors.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Vitiate has never needed to use a saber.

And how will that help him here?

Vitiate is the most powerful force user of his era, and held such an advantage in the force that he didn't need a lightsaber to defeat anyone he faced in his era. But that doesn't mean his advantage in the force is as huge against other top force users from other eras.

Originally posted by truejedi
it certainly isn't conclusive enough to give vitiate a win over arguably the most powerful sith in the mythos.

Originally posted by truejedi
Revan is the ONLY example of a top-tier sith being completely mindfvcked. (Caedus is another, actually...) What are the chances that a fight between Sidious and Vitiate ends with a mind-domination?

He has harnessed his mental capabilities to such an extent that he uses them as a WEAPON against his opponents and they typically fall in to his TRAP.

There is no direct counter to Vitiate's telepathic assault. Only method is to PREVENT him from doing so in the first place and within very short span of time. But for this to happen, it is important for the challenger to know about this particular capability of Vitiate.

Originally posted by truejedi
That didn't even take the Exile out of her fight with Vitiate, and the Exile was definitly set up in the novel to be a first class chump.

Originally posted by truejedi
oh, vitiate was unable to overwhelm the mind of the Revan of the novel, and therefore the version of Revan that finished KOTOR. it was pre-Kotor, weaker Revan, who was unable to defend his mind from Vitiate, and as he says to Scourge, Vitiate was unable to completely overwhelm the mind of EVEN that Revan, since both he and Malak returned to Republic space and warped the instructions that came from Vitiate until he was no longer in control.

It does not matters if Revan was weaker in the first encounter. He had Malak with him and Vitiate subdued BOTH OF THEM with his mental powers simultaneously before they could attack him.

And you are twisting Revan's words. He admitted that he along with Malak got completely overwhelmed in the first encounter. However, he also pointed out that both of them were STRONG MINDED individuals and were able to partially overcome his influence during the Jedi Civil War. Revan, in particular, probed the mind of Vitiate in return to learn about him, and decided to take advantage. However, his plans never materialized because Malak betrayed him.

In the second encounter, Revan was properly prepared because he was familiar with the capabilities of Vitiate. He still had to step 'out of the line' to STOP him in the process of crushing his will. It could not be done in typical Jedi or Sith offensive fashion.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Byss and the Deep Core and The Essential Atlas indicate that the Emperor first used the Force to mentally subjugate the population before he leeched off their life energies.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Second and more importantly, you do realize that one could pose a similar question to you about Vitiate. If, for example, he was able to cloud the minds of these powerful Force users, why then are the likes of Nyriss able to plot against him? Why was he forced to execute the Dark Council, if he could simply force their cooperation (pun intended)?

Nyriss also pointed out that one of the key factors behind such a long reign of Vitiate is his mental powers. Mind you, he lasted for over a THOUSAND years in POWER.

Also, Dark Council was ALL TALK and NO ACTION as Scourge pointed out. Revan was the only one who dared to challenge Vitiate.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
As I said, I have my opinions. First, Palpatine did use the Force to influence the likes of Yoda and Windu. Second, the manipulations of Byss and Coruscant occurred after he began his two decade study of the Force, which would naturally yield great gains in Force mastery. Third, both manipulations likely required time or at least enormous preparation on Sidious's part.

Without time and preparation and the benefit of extensive study in the Force, it's conceivable that Sidious would face enormous difficulty if not outright impossibility trying to mentally subjugate the likes of Yoda or Windu.

Vitiate actually gained the ability to use his mental powers as a WEAPON in single combat. This is the key difference.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Vitiate had them killed because he perceived them to be dangerous to his designs. I see no reason why he would be unable to impose his will on the Council; it would serve his purposes greater and remove any question of disloyalty. Unless, of course, there are limitations to this power.

Originally posted by truejedi
wait, why didn't vitiate just overcome a single jedi knight instead of dying?

Prior to the final encounter, this Jedi got help from Scourge who had studied Vitiate for a very long time by that time. The situation is not so black and white as you make it out to be.

In addition, this Jedi is a CHAMPION of LIGHT. He is a TOP TIER material.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And how will that help him here?

Vitiate is the most powerful force user of his era, and held such an advantage in the force that he didn't need a lightsaber to defeat anyone he faced in his era. But that doesn't mean his advantage in the force is as huge against other top force users from other eras.