DE Sidious vs Sith Emperor

If the Dark Council were utterly impotent and incapable of threatening Vitiate, there would have been no reason to kill him. The fact that he did kill them and endeavored to do so quickly contradicts your argument. Moreover, the fact that he allowed such potentially dangerous individuals secure positions of enormous influence within the Sith government without mentally subjugating them indicates that he was unable to do so.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
The populace of Byss was already loyal to Sidious. This is why he chose this world to recuperate. It was easy for him to control it. And he had to make sure that no betrayal would happen.

Their loyalty doesn't mitigate the level of domination he imposed on the population, or that of Coruscant. It is a use of telepathic control on a scale that Vitiate is not known to have equaled.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
It is not necessary that he will subjugate every member of his Empire to his mental powers unless he felt the need to do so.

Nyriss also pointed out that one of the key factors behind such a long reign of Vitiate is his mental powers. Mind you, he lasted for over a THOUSAND years in POWER.

Also, Dark Council was ALL TALK and NO ACTION as Scourge pointed out. Revan was the only one who dared to challenge Vitiate.

Vitiate's haste to eliminate the members of the Council indicates that this is not the case; if they were no threat to him, he'd have no reason to kill them.

And, just so we're clear, abusing the caps lock and bold function don't make your argument any more precise. That Vitiate's reign was supremely long lasting is irrelevant to the discussion. The fact remains that his powers of persuasion would have been highly useful in situations that he has not shown using them. This, coupled with the fact that what we know of him is detailed in a legend the accuracy of which cannot be ascertained even by the one providing it {Nyriss}, indicates that there are clear and incontrovertible limitations to this ability.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
Vitiate actually gained the ability to use his mental powers as a WEAPON in single combat. This is the key difference.

Where is he shown to utilize such abilities in mid-combat?

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
Don't you get the point?

I do, and based on the quality of your arguments, I suspect I get the point better than you do.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
He eliminated his entire Dark Council. He handled 9 members by himself. We don't know the details but since none of them walked out alive, it is fair to assume that all of them were helpless when Vitiate attacked them and he may have used his mental powers to great effect in a contest of such a magnitude. Vitiate had to make sure that none of them would get the chance to escape.

The details of the confrontation are not known. Vitiate summoned them to his chambers, thus he was in a position to know precisely when and where they'd arrive. This means that is absolutely possible that Vitiate used a ritual to ensnare or murder the members of the Council, even if he didn't use his henchmen. These are perfectly reasonable alternatives to the proposed singlehanded slaughter of the Council members; in fact, Vitiate-- the scholar and manipulator-- is historically {if the legend can be trusted} more inclined for indirect attacks, rituals, and manipulations than outright application of brute force.

You and the good doctor need to fine-tune your arguments before expecting the skeptics to simply submit to your interpretation of events.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
If the Dark Council were utterly impotent and incapable of threatening Vitiate, there would have been no reason to kill him. The fact that he did kill them and endeavored to do so quickly contradicts your argument. Moreover, the fact that he allowed such potentially dangerous individuals secure positions of enormous influence within the Sith government without mentally subjugating them indicates that he was unable to do so.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Their loyalty doesn't mitigate the level of domination he imposed on the population, or that of Coruscant. It is a use of telepathic control on a scale that Vitiate is not known to have equaled.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Vitiate's haste to eliminate the members of the Council indicates that this is not the case; if they were no threat to him, he'd have no reason to kill them.

Vitiate destroyed his (Revan era) Dark Council because he wanted to make an example for others.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
And, just so we're clear, abusing the caps lock and bold function don't make your argument any more precise. That Vitiate's reign was supremely long lasting is irrelevant to the discussion.

"The Emperor has the ability to dominate and enslave the minds of those who serve him," she explained.

"It's one of the reasons he has ruled for so long. Those that are transformed become fanatical zealots who live to serve; they are not capable of betraying him."

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
The fact remains that his powers of persuasion would have been highly useful in situations that he has not shown using them.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
This, coupled with the fact that what we know of him is detailed in a legend the accuracy of which cannot be ascertained even by the one providing it {Nyriss}, indicates that there are clear and incontrovertible limitations to this ability.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Where is he shown to utilize such abilities in mid-combat?

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I do, and based on the quality of your arguments, I suspect I get the point better than you do.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
The details of the confrontation are not known. Vitiate summoned them to his chambers, thus he was in a position to know precisely when and where they'd arrive. This means that is absolutely possible that Vitiate used a ritual to ensnare or murder the members of the Council, even if he didn't use his henchmen. These are perfectly reasonable alternatives to the proposed singlehanded slaughter of the Council members; in fact, Vitiate-- the scholar and manipulator-- is historically {if the legend can be trusted} more inclined for indirect attacks, rituals, and manipulations than outright application of brute force.

The possibility of a ritual was ruled out indirectly when Scourge and his Jedi allies were discussing this matter. Scourge confirmed that Vitiate himself KILLED them. He found this out when he left the cave to investigate the situation before he could make a move against the Sith Emperor.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
You and the good doctor need to fine-tune your arguments before expecting the skeptics to simply submit to your interpretation of events.

I'm deeply uninterested in traversing endless tangents with you, so let's keep our eyes on the proverbial ball here.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
and that is when Vitiate decided to act and succeeded in eliminating it within hours.

Indeed. Hours that could have been spent preparing a lethal ritual for the summoned Council. When we consider the fact that there are clear limitations to Vitiate's telepathic manipulation of others and the fact that he has relied on rituals in the past, this ventures from the land of possibility to probability.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
Your point makes no sense.

Vitiate destroyed his (Revan era) Dark Council because he wanted to make an example for others.

No, my point is that if there are no limitations to Vitiate's ability to control others, why would he need to kill them at all. Or in simpler terms: He wouldn't need to kill anyone if he can just dominate their minds. There'd be no threat of betrayal and his paranoia would be sated. The fact that the Dark Council existed beyond his complete control and he feared them enough to execute them for any reason indicates that he simply can't control everyone, even the ones who are the most dangerous to him.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
Surik also investigated this matter. Nyriss's claims were valid though every bit of detail could not be determined from the records. Legend or not, Nyriss investigated the past of Vitiate. She was a Council Member and had access to knowledge that none other would have.

Surik corroborates the effects of the ritual, not the exact events as detailed by Nyriss. There is no reason to take it as the literal gospel.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
Rituals take time to be effective. Vitiate terminated them within short order.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
Vitiate decided to act and succeeded in eliminating it within hours.

He had the time.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
The possibility of a ritual was ruled out indirectly when Scourge and his Jedi allies were discussing this matter. Scourge confirmed that Vitiate himself KILLED them.

That Vitiate killed them in no way contradicts the probability that he did so through a ritual.

In the interest of brevity, I would like your next post to address these two specific items and nothing more. I don't care about Vitiate's reign compared to Sidious's or that Vitiate was a MASTER OF THE DARK SIDE and used powerful Force lightning or other similar, unsubstantiated remarks you're known to espouse ad infinitum. If you're incapable of that, don't bother responding.

Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I'm deeply uninterested in traversing endless tangents with you, so let's keep our eyes on the proverbial ball here.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Indeed. Hours that could have been spent preparing a lethal ritual for the summoned Council. When we consider the fact that there are clear limitations to Vitiate's telepathic manipulation of others and the fact that he has relied on rituals in the past, this ventures from the land of possibility to probability.

As far as past is concerned, Vitiate broke 100 powerful Sith simultaneously on Nathema and forced them to participate in his ritual, which made him immortal. Do you think that a single individual could fool 100 Sith Lords with just words?

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
No, my point is that if there are no limitations to Vitiate's ability to control others, why would he need to kill them at all. Or in simpler terms: He wouldn't need to kill anyone if he can just dominate their minds. There'd be no threat of betrayal and his paranoia would be sated. The fact that the Dark Council existed beyond his complete control and he feared them enough to execute them for any reason indicates that he simply can't control everyone, even the ones who are the most dangerous to him.

"The Emperor has the ability to dominate and enslave the minds of those who serve him," she explained.

"It's one of the reasons he has ruled for so long. Those that are transformed become fanatical zealots who live to serve; they are not capable of betraying him."

How many times I have to mention this?

On the basis of current canonical data, it is apparent that (Revan era) Dark Council was conspiring against Vitiate. The members that made up this Dark Council knew about the past history of the True Sith Empire. They came up with a plan to topple Vitiate after a long time of deliberation and consulation but no one was clear on how to execute this plan or was it even possible to execute this plan. For some reason, the Dark Council failed to make a move against Vitiate during the meetings.

The relevant novel established that this Dark Council was ALL TALK and NO ACTION. It was inept or that Vitiate's control was too good. Scourge also realized this. This is why he decided to side with Revan.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Surik corroborates the effects of the ritual, not the exact events as detailed by Nyriss. There is no reason to take it as the literal gospel.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
He had the time.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
That Vitiate killed them in no way contradicts the probability that he did so through a ritual.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
In the interest of brevity, I would like your next post to address these two specific items and nothing more. I don't care about Vitiate's reign compared to Sidious's or that Vitiate was a MASTER OF THE DARK SIDE and used powerful Force lightning or unsubstantiated remarks. If you're incapable of that, don't bother responding.

Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
First you need to prove that Vitiate destroyed those 9 members with a ritual.

I don't need to, actually, because I didn't claim that this was definitely the case.

All I said is that it was possible, if not likely, and I provided sufficient reasons for why that might have been the case: namely that Vitiate has relied on rituals before, that he had ample time to initiate one, and that he has not demonstrated the power to singlehandedly destroy nine prodigiously gifted Sith Lords.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
As far as past is concerned, Vitiate broke 100 powerful Sith simultaneously on Nathema and forced them to participate in his ritual, which made him immortal. Do you think that a single individual could fool 100 Sith Lords with just words?

I think that I accept Nyriss's admission that the details of the legend cannot be proven. I also accept the fact that Vitiate, a paranoid despot of galactic proportions, was apparently unable to subjugate his Dark Council despite having every possible reason to do so. He had them killed instead of enslaved, and one wonders why he would do that if he could have simply snapped his fingers and broke their wills.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
How many times I have to mention this?

You shouldn't have mentioned it at all, because it's irrelevant. The fact that Vitiate didn't enslave the Council and that they freely plotted against him indicates that there are limitations to his ability to control others through the Force.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
She is an outsider. She cannot know everything. Nyriss is the exception. Being close to Vitiate, she had access to information that outsiders could not. Common sense.

Nyriss emphatically states the legend cannot be corroborated. I'm disinclined, then, to accept it as the gospel.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
Prove it that he destroyed them with ritual.

I don't have to prove anything. All I sought to do is expose the gaping rends in the logic subscribed to by Vitiate's defense and I succeeded in that regard. I didn't claim he definitely used a ritual, only that it was possible that he did, and that there's evidence to support this.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
Scourge disagrees with you.

Nothing you've provided from Scourge disproves the possibility that Vitiate used a ritual to kill the Council.

Originally posted by SW_LeGenD
Prove it.

He had the time, he had the precedence, and he hasn't shown that level of power to singlehandedly take on nine powerful Sith Lords and kill them outright. Not without a ritual, that is.

@ ChainOfLove

I will get back to you when I would be in home. Your claims will be effectively dealt with. Don't worry.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Don't worry.

I only worry that you'll waste my time. To be honest, I was much more interested in what Beefington had to say. Your approach is nauseating. Please remember to stay on point.

If the Dark Council were utterly impotent and incapable of threatening Vitiate, there would have been no reason to kill him. The fact that he did kill them and endeavored to do so quickly contradicts your argument. Moreover, the fact that he allowed such potentially dangerous individuals secure positions of enormous influence within the Sith government without mentally subjugating them indicates that he was unable to do so.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I don't need to, actually, because I didn't claim that this was definitely the case.

In my long debating history, I have learned one key lesson; personal opinions are not regarded as valid arguments in debates. This is true for KMC as well.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
All I said is that it was possible, if not likely, and I provided sufficient reasons for why that might have been the case: namely that Vitiate has relied on rituals before, that he had ample time to initiate one, and that he has not demonstrated the power to singlehandedly destroy nine prodigiously gifted Sith Lords.

Here is a close example:

YouTube video

Vitiate easily subdued 4 powerful Jedi including the main hero in a fair contest.

The ritual of Nathema was for a special purpose. To gain immortality.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I think that I accept Nyriss's admission that the details of the legend cannot be proven.

"Those who witnessed the events no longer live to verify them. But if you had ever met the Emperor in person, you would not be so hesitant to accept the tale as fact." (Nyriss to Scourge)

Try to comprehend this part too instead of picking and choosing among the statements of Nyriss like critics typically do.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I also accept the fact that Vitiate, a paranoid despot of galactic proportions, was apparently unable to subjugate his Dark Council despite having every possible reason to do so. He had them killed instead of enslaved, and one wonders why he would do that if he could have simply snapped his fingers and broke their wills.

However, this could change if anybody would attempt to directly challenge Vitiate. The challenger risked getting turned in to a mindless slave in response or be killed. This was the risk that even Dark Council members were not willing to take.

Here is the interesting part about the plan:

"You said it yourself: something happened to his mind. His memories are lost, but so is his knowledge of and loyalty to the Emperor. Whatever was done to him, it freed him from the Emperor's domination. If we can learn how this happened, we might be able to use it to bring the Emperor down. Remember that all those who have direct access to the Emperor—the Emperor's Voice, the Emperor's Hand, the soldiers in the Imperial Guard—are under his spell. Breaking that spell, turning his most loyal followers against him, is our best chance of defeating him and saving the Empire from his mad plan to attack the Republic." (Nyriss to Scourge)

"We need Revan alive so we can study him," she concluded. "He is too valuable a resource to throw away."

Now you know that whom Vitiate mentally enslaved within his Empire, what the plan was, and why it was not working.

Nyriss wanted to find out that how Revan broke free from the mental grip of Vitiate. She did not knew that Revan underwent a memory wipe by the Jedi Council. And neither would Revan give her any clue.

No need to doubt Vitiate's telepathic abilities when he has a history of breaking multiple opponents simultaneously in single combat.

Here is an example of a Jedi mentally enslaved by Vitiate:

YouTube video

Warren Sedoru is under mental grip of Vitiate. He is doing his bidding even when he is far away from his place.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
You shouldn't have mentioned it at all, because it's irrelevant. The fact that Vitiate didn't enslave the Council and that they freely plotted against him indicates that there are limitations to his ability to control others through the Force.

"Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate’s control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims." (Nyriss to Scourge)

What makes you think that he could not control his Dark Council, if he wanted to?

And this part comes after the tale of rise of Vitiate to power in Nathema.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Nyriss emphatically states the legend cannot be corroborated. I'm disinclined, then, to accept it as the gospel.

For example:

By your logic, below part should be questionable too?

"At thirteen he presented himself to Marka Ragnos, the Lord of all Sith and the ruler of the Sith Council. Impressed by the teenager's ambition and power, Marka Ragnos granted him the title of Lord Vitiate. His position as ruler of Nathema officially recognized, Lord Vitiate returned to his home to conduct his research into the depths of the dark side’s power." (Nyriss to Scourge)

Who gave the title of Lord Vitiate to the Sith Emperor? Any contradictory source?

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I don't have to prove anything. All I sought to do is expose the gaping rends in the logic subscribed to by Vitiate's defense and I succeeded in that regard. I didn't claim he definitely used a ritual, only that it was possible that he did, and that there's evidence to support this.

The ritual part has been ruled out:

"He's quarantined Dromund Kaas," Meetra said, trying to lead them to the same conclusion. "What if he's preparing to do the same thing here that he did on Nathema?"

Scourge hadn't considered that possibility, and it chilled him to his core. "Is that possible?" he asked. "Nyriss told me the ritual on Nathema took days, if not weeks. And the Emperor had to trick hundreds of other powerful Sith into working with him so he could draw on their power."

"He's stronger now," Revan said. "But even if it's possible, I don't think he'll go that far. At least not yet. He is too patient, too careful. Dromund Kaas is the heart of his Empire and the seat of his power. He has too many valuable resources here to throw it all away. But once he is ready, there will be nothing left to stop him from launching his invasion of the Republic."

This exchange of statements occurred after the revelation by Scourge of Vitiate killing 9 members of his Dark Council by himself. Actual information is provided below for your convenience.

Any other funny ideas?

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Nothing you've provided from Scourge disproves the possibility that Vitiate used a ritual to kill the Council.

"What did you find out?" Meetra asked as Revan extended a hand to help her up.

"It wasn't just Nyriss who was attacked. The Emperor killed them all." (Scourge)

"The files you showed me listed five current members of the Dark Council plotting against him," Meetra said, looking to clarify. "Are you saying the Emperor's Guard wiped out all five in the space of a single day?"

"I said he killed them all," Scourge replied. "All twelve members of the Dark Council—even those who weren't part of the conspiracy. He wanted to send a message no one would ever forget."

"How is that possible?" Revan asked. "He attacked a dozen of the most powerful Sith Lords in their seats of power simultaneously? How many troops does he have?"

"The Imperial Guard were only unleashed on Nyriss and two others. The Emperor must have assumed they were the ones least likely to answer his summons. The other nine were called together in the hours before the attack to meet with the Emperor at his citadel. None of them left alive." (Sourge to Revan)

This also clears up the misconception that the entire Dark Council was plotting against Vitiate.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
He had the time, he had the precedence, and he hasn't shown that level of power to singlehandedly take on nine powerful Sith Lords and kill them outright. Not without a ritual, that is.

A lot of the Jedi Council is under the control of Vitiate. Hence the "first son" and all..

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I only worry that you'll waste my time. To be honest, I was much more interested in what Beefington had to say. Your approach is nauseating. Please remember to stay on point.

At minimum, support your assumption with some canonical information. There is no hint in the novel that Vitiate used a ritual to kill 9 members of his Dark Council. Not even a supporting quote from any character.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
A lot of the Jedi Council is under the control of Vitiate. Hence the "first son" and all..

Another interesting capability of Vitiate:

The Sith Lord raised his lightsaber to deliver the coup de grâce. He brought his arm down, but it suddenly stopped as if an invisible and impossibly strong hand had seized his wrist. He glanced back at the Emperor in surprise.

"Put away your blade. You have passed the test," the Emperor said. "But Revan can still be of use to me."

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't understand. Now you're saying because a certain character didn't do action X, that means he couldn't?

What I'm doing is running a parallel to what you offered here:

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
So explain to me the idea that he can allegedly mind warp 2 trillion, yet he isn't able to overcome a single jedi in Windu or Yoda. Unless Windu and Yoda have mindpowers superior to 2 trillion people, I don't see how that makes any sense.

It doesn't make much sense that Vitiate could be capable of all these things and yet allow his most powerful agents to act independent and openly plot against him, when it has been reiterated consistently throughout the book that his paranoia is palpable. The obvious answer to this conundrum is similar to Sidious's: there are clear limitations to Vitiate's ability to influence others through the Force.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
What I'm doing is running a parallel to what you offered here:

It doesn't make much sense that Vitiate could be capable of all these things and yet allow his most powerful agents to act independent and openly plot against him, when it has been reiterated consistently throughout the book that his paranoia is palpable. The obvious answer to this conundrum is similar to Sidious's: there are clear limitations to Vitiate's ability to influence others through the Force.

okidokie

Well that was anticlimactic.

I don't intend to go through the last two pages between you and Legend.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you think that a single individual could fool 100 Sith Lords with just words?

Isn't that pretty much what Naga Sadow did?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Isn't that pretty much what Naga Sadow did?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't intend to go through the last two pages between you and Legend.

You are wise to fear me. But him?

So? That isn't what you said. You asked if a single individual could manipulate 100 Sith Lords and I said, yeah, Naga Sadow did just that. The same gullable Sith lords who believed Sadow about the "Imminent Republic Invasion" were the guys who participated in Vitiates ritual.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So? That isn't what you said. You asked if a single individual could manipulate 100 Sith Lords and I said, yeah, Naga Sadow did just that. The same gullable Sith lords who believed Sadow about the "Imminent Republic Invasion" were the guys who participated in Vitiates ritual.

Vitiate was a ruler of just one world and was not involved in power games. Unlike him, Naga Sadow was in the big picture. Sith would have taken whom seriously from the two?