Kratos ,Dante ,War(Ds) Alex Mercer vs Kain & Raziel

Started by Burning thought8 pages

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nope, CC disproved your "feat".

Also, fyi, the notion that Kain is billions of times more durable than Raziel was funny.

Blunt ass claws.

Um, are you under the impression that I am disputing him tipping the obelisk?

Because I'm not. What was proven that the pressure you got for the feat was two thousand times more impressive than it should have been.

You think a human's fingertip is a square millimeter?

Also, nup, sorry, your little earth's core feat has been disproved. According to the correct conversions, and with a little look on wiki, Raziel can exert "merely" a little over twice the tons PSI of the ballistic pressure exerted as high-power bullet strikes solid (bulletproof) object.

Noticeably less impressive.

Once more, Kratos and Dante can kill Kain and Raziel before Kain can think to do anything.

Damn, I sure am WINNING this thread.

Edit: Technically Neph, BT is making an Appeal to Motive fallacy. Attempting to disprove the validity of BR's calcs (The ones he did not make) by insinuating that they can't be accepted due to bias.

It's BT's favorite fallacy at the moment, apparently.

No, you can claim that as much as you like, it doesnt make it true you know?

Erm why? Raziel gets cut by humans on screen, while Kain in the same game takes Raziels strikes without harm on screen, nay on FMV.....so stop trolling.

No, it was proven that M and D and myself, using the full calculation on Raziel attacking Kain creates more pressure than Raziel simply moving the obelisk...which makes vastly more sense doesnt it, because raziels claw tips have a small surcae area as opposed to Raziels two hands....

Yes, the average human nail is about 2mm squared, the finger tip is about 1mm squared just as a guestimate of my own freshly cut nails.

You looked on wiki and so this disproves me? 😆

NO because your character prfile/wiki says Kratos loses to kain!

No wai! ime winningzor!?

No, I said I dont belive his calcs are legit because I dont see any reasoing on how he calculated each raindrop falling, also I was under the impression he did it but whoever did it, I would like to see their method and I would only be appealing to motive if I was saying his calcs were wrong because he loves Dante...and only that....which is funny for you to mension because that is what you do to me.

You would know all about fallacies having used them yourself countless occasions, yet you seem to think the fallacy applies in situations it doesnt.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ad hominem is against the poster of the argument, your the poster of the argument and I am pointing out your ignorance of BR's methods. Also, how do they stand? Because you just shrug and agree?

Backed up by what profile? lol....its not a backing for anything, its made by anyone who wants to change it, it says a lot of funny things in there.

Blitz Kain? he moves his arms around a bit to block sowrd strikes, how is this a blitzing manouver? he didnt blitz vergil, he didnt blitz lady, he didnt blitz anyone and has been tagged just many times as hes tagged others, he got shot in the head by lady in one scene, and in the chest.

"insert the correct scenes", nice try on making your own "DMC" game.....maybe ill just "add in" bits cut from the LoK games, I recall bullet time powers in BO 2 were cut as well....

You are attacking BR personally to discredit a completely seperate feat. That falls into a Ad Hominem attack in my humble opinion. And yes thats how these things work. Generally something is standing until you manage to knock it down. Now unless you'd actually like to disprove it I don't think we have anything else to discuss on this topic.

Except it actually establishes a source. You were the one touting 'unbiased support' a moment ago. Would you deny me the same courtesy?

As proven by numerous people Dante has more than enough speed to blitz Kain.

You misunderstand me, I am not attempting to add in made up scenes, I'm merely pointing out that there is a break in the scene where the fight from the intro could have taken place, except the makers didn't show it because they had already shown it. It makes perfect sense and is acceptable within the rules of scene progression.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Edit: Technically Neph, BT is making an Appeal to Motive fallacy. Attempting to disprove the validity of BR's calcs (The ones he did not make) by insinuating that they can't be accepted due to bias.

It's BT's favorite fallacy at the moment, apparently.

SHRUG!

A fallacy is a fallacy is a fallacy. I dun care which.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You are attacking BR personally to discredit a completely seperate feat. That falls into a Ad Hominem attack in my humble opinion. And yes thats how these things work. Generally something is standing until you manage to knock it down. Now unless you'd actually like to disprove it I don't think we have anything else to discuss on this topic.

Except it actually establishes a source. You were the one touting 'unbiased support' a moment ago. Would you deny me the same courtesy?

As proven by numerous people Dante has more than enough speed to blitz Kain.

You misunderstand me, I am not attempting to add in made up scenes, I'm merely pointing out that there is a break in the scene where the fight from the intro could have taken place, except the makers didn't show it because they had already shown it. It makes perfect sense and is acceptable within the rules of scene progression.

😆 since when is saying "I belive he misjudged the calculation" a pesonal attack? If anything, your the only one who makes personal attacks or trolls out of the two of us. Disprove what? I disproved it as soon as I pointed out the faulty logic behind it....how is that so hard to understand? also stop straw manning me.

Its not a source tbh, no more than me making a website where I claim Kain is a God who can take out universes with his sneezes....it holds no weight because its made by posters who may be just as equelly bias as anyone on here if not more. Also, assuming you like this source, I gues that means you agree Kain has hypersonic+ reactions and can afterall react to dante, therefore making this debate between us useless? Kain does exactly what I said he would do by your source, and logic in general both.

Again, you sort of just ignored the debate then re-stated your opinion, unproven might I add. Even if we had the "Mach speed" proven for Dante, we dont have a momentum where he can run from, you dont have much to suggest he can blitz anyone at the moment.

Show me, show me this "break", because it seems like your reaching. How can you have a break between Dante saying he hates his brother and attacking to the friction clash scene? You cant....they have literally taken a piece out of the cutscene.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No, you can claim that as much as you like, it doesnt make it true you know?

Correct.

CC's post is what makes it true.

Erm why? Raziel gets cut by humans on screen, while Kain in the same game takes Raziels strikes without harm on screen, nay on FMV.....so stop trolling.

Maybe, you know, Raziel's claws are... Blunt. 🙂

Also, to take a page from your book, can you prove that Raziel's hands were going at the same velocity or exerting the same force as they are when he tips the obelisk? 😄

No, it was proven that M and D and myself, using the full calculation on Raziel attacking Kain creates more pressure than Raziel simply moving the obelisk...which makes vastly more sense doesnt it, because raziels claw tips have a small surcae area as opposed to Raziels two hands....

First of all, stop inserting yourself to take credit for their work.

Second of all, it was proven that they botched the conversion.

You can't actually side-step that point. The conversion was botched in the translation from bars to tons PSI.

Yes, the average human nail is about 2mm squared, the finger tip is about 1mm squared just as a guestimate of my own freshly cut nails.

Going to have to disagree, unless you have tiny fingers. Can you show evidence of this?

You looked on wiki and so this disproves me? 😆

Well no, I realise you are slow-witted, but try to keep up.

Using the correct tons PSI of the pressure exerted by Raziel's claws, namely about 9,500 tons PSI, I checked the Orders of Magnitude page for pressure and noticed that that is nearly twice that of teh boolit I just mentioned.

Reading comprehension yo.

NO because your character prfile/wiki says Kratos loses to kain!

My character profile? Er, Neph is the one who posted it.

No wai! ime winningzor!?

Afraid not. While imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, you're not very good at portraying the subtle nuance and wit I possess, while simultaneously taking refuge in the audacity of my posting style. So I must ask you to stop.

No, I said I dont belive his calcs are legit because I dont see any reasoing on how he calculated each raindrop falling, also I was under the impression he did it but whoever did it, I would like to see their method and I would only be appealing to motive if I was saying his calcs were wrong because he loves Dante...and only that....which is funny for you to mension because that is what you do to me.

Um, I guess you could say that is what I've been doing. If you were an idiot.

Did you miss the part where I pointed out where your math was disproven?

And nah, I certainly don't need the mach 15 calc, when the mach 6.5 calc will do.

You would know all about fallacies having used them yourself countless occasions, yet you seem to think the fallacy applies in situations it doesnt.

Point out my fallacies.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Correct.

CC's post is what makes it true.

Maybe, you know, Raziel's claws are... Blunt. 🙂

Also, to take a page from your book, can you prove that Raziel's hands were going at the same velocity or exerting the same force as they are when he tips the obelisk? 😄

First of all, stop inserting yourself to take credit for their work.

Second of all, it was proven that they botched the conversion.

You can't actually side-step that point. The conversion was botched in the translation from bars to tons PSI.

Going to have to disagree, unless you have tiny fingers. Can you show evidence of this?

Well no, I realise you are slow-witted, but try to keep up.

Using the correct tons PSI of the pressure exerted by Raziel's claws, namely about 9,500 tons PSI, I checked the Orders of Magnitude page for pressure and noticed that that is nearly twice that of teh boolit I just mentioned.

Reading comprehension yo.

My character profile? Er, Neph is the one who posted it.

Afraid not. While imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, you're not very good at portraying the subtle nuance and wit I possess, while simultaneously taking refuge in the audacity of my posting style. So I must ask you to stop.

Um, I guess you could say that is what I've been doing. If you were an idiot.

Did you miss the part where I pointed out where your math was disproven?

And nah, I certainly don't need the mach 15 calc, when the mach 6.5 calc will do.

Point out my fallacies.

CC's post only outlines his confusion and now your own.

No, although a second ago you were claiming blunt things can do ridiculous force anyway, its all about SA, Raziels SA is more than small enough without having to be monomolecular.

Well yes, because the scene itself shows Raziel enraged and using all his strength, as opposed to idly moving the obelisk as if it were a 50 ton block he did earlier....theres "ease" and theres "use of power"

it wasnt all their work, just mostly. Second, no they didnt, it was proven CC didnt read the thread and thinks the ability and pressure to move a pillar is the same to impact Kains chest with claws.

WHy would I show evidence, i can see it..also your playing silly buggers, look online and look up the human nail, at best their about 3mm in length on average and not much more than that wide.

"correct" meaning the one you prefer, which is pretty much what CC was complaing about with me, only he was wrong.

True but still, its funny.

You pointed out where you belive it was disproven, then failed to point out why apart from vaguely describing how apprently Raziels claws may not be sharp as knives or such.

You use ad hominem all the time, you love band wagons and jump on them any time you can and on top of that you create straw mans often as well,

Edit-, actually, its 2 cm, not mm. its the tip of an alligator tooth that can be measured in mm squared.

Originally posted by Burning thought
CC's post only outlines his confusion and now your own.

Prove it.

No, although a second ago you were claiming blunt things can do ridiculous force anyway, its all about SA, Raziels SA is more than small enough without having to be monomolecular.

I was bringing up Superman having a cutting feat with something duller than a pencil, yes.

I'm not disputing that Raziel is strong enough to put holes in normal humans, or in stone, so I'm not seeing your point.

Well yes, because the scene itself shows Raziel enraged and using all his strength, as opposed to idly moving the obelisk as if it were a 50 ton block he did earlier....theres "ease" and theres "use of power"

Hey now, Atlas was enraged, but according to you not using all his strength. Podeison was enraged, but according to you not using all his strength.

What a joke.

it wasnt all their work, just mostly. Second, no they didnt, it was proven CC didnt read the thread and thinks the ability and pressure to move a pillar is the same to impact Kains chest with claws.

Er, that's not what he said at all.

He merely pointed out where your team made a mistake in conversions.

Point out with quotes and a suitable explanation the flaw in CC's post, in terms of debunking your calculations.

WHy would I show evidence, i can see it..also your playing silly buggers, look online and look up the human nail, at best their about 3mm in length on average and not much more than that wide.

Raziel's claw tips are duller than a human nail, so I'm not seeing your point here. They are marginally smaller than a human finger, if that, at the tips.

"correct" meaning the one you prefer, which is pretty much what CC was complaing about with me, only he was wrong.

Oh hey look another appeal to motive. I could make this a drinking game. Well, I would, if I drank.

Disprove CC's "disprovation" (Hey look I invented a word! 😄) if you take issue with it.

True but still, its funny.

Not really. Give me a few days and I could easily turn that around.

You pointed out where you belive it was disproven, then failed to point out why apart from vaguely describing how apprently Raziels claws may not be sharp as knives or such.

Well that and the whole "They ****ed up the conversions" thing.

You use ad hominem all the time,

Wrong, I insult, but I don't ever pretend that that defeats your argument in of itself. If you are going to accuse someone of fallacy, do so correctly.

you love band wagons and jump on them any time you can

I guess that's why I'm such a big DMC and Kingdom Hearts fan then. Point out said bandwagons.

If you are referring to making fun of you and laughing at you as a bandwagon, that is also a silly statement. I've been doing that longer than everyone else here. If anything, they joined my bandwagon.

and on top of that you create straw mans often as well,

Point some out.

Can't help but notice you could not show me any actual fallacies I have made, or rather examples of such.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Prove it.

I was bringing up Superman having a cutting feat with something duller than a pencil, yes.

I'm not disputing that Raziel is strong enough to put holes in normal humans, or in stone, so I'm not seeing your point.

Hey now, Atlas was enraged, but according to you not using all his strength. Podeison was enraged, but according to you not using all his strength.

What a joke.

Er, that's not what he said at all.

He merely pointed out where your team made a mistake in conversions.

Point out with quotes and a suitable explanation the flaw in CC's post, in terms of debunking your calculations.

Raziel's claw tips are duller than a human nail, so I'm not seeing your point here. They are marginally smaller than a human finger, if that, at the tips.

Oh hey look another appeal to motive. I could make this a drinking game. Well, I would, if I drank.

Disprove CC's "disprovation" (Hey look I invented a word! 😄) if you take issue with it.

Not really. Give me a few days and I could easily turn that around.

Well that and the whole "They ****ed up the conversions" thing.

Wrong, I insult, but I don't ever pretend that that defeats your argument in of itself. If you are going to accuse someone of fallacy, do so correctly.

I guess that's why I'm such a big DMC and Kingdom Hearts fan then. Point out said bandwagons.

If you are referring to making fun of you and laughing at you as a bandwagon, that is also a silly statement. I've been doing that longer than everyone else here. If anything, they joined my bandwagon.

Point some out.

Can't help but notice you could not show me any actual fallacies I have made, or rather examples of such.

You just did it yourself by complaining about conversions of one calc to another.

So what are you disputing then? you just said that apprently if Raziels claws were blunt, that they would not be impressive not piercing Kain, regardless of how sharp they are, their SA is still tiny.

No he wasnt, he was annoyed at what Kratos did before, but he put two fingers of little effort onto Kratos. And Posiedon wasnt enraged, when? Not at Kratos at any rate.

I just did point it out, hes claiming here;

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Let's quote the respect thread calc posts again:

BR:

vs.

D and M's;

(not actually quoting what he quoted for virtue of stretching the post) that these are the same calculation done wrong, when the second one is the final calculation at Raziels claw tips after attacking Kain. The first one is BR's calc on the pillar itself.... I cant belive you cant even see that tbh, but ofc you didnt look at all did you.

The very tip is very small, CC calculated the tip as a cone, as if Raziels claw penetated Kain at all, which it didnt, the very tip which we cant really calc properly is whta hit Kain, but we use 1mm squared for ease.

Ive done it countless times, and youve shown the ignorance of it as well, also a drinking game of calling out fallacies randomy without reason? how boring...

since when, show me, specifically the quote that proves this, all I see is CC struggling to claim that just because one was 7x more (assuming they were the same calc, their not) or hundreds of times more that they had to be wrong.....theres no proof there ,just his assertion.

Neither do I, also youve done it before. This is one of those bandwagons, you jump on a bandwagon every time anyone tries to bash me, then you join in. It never turns to anything. in this case, your on CC's bandwagon. also you cant call a bandwagon yours just because you got upset and made a on me grudge first, you join new bandwagons every time someone gets upset that I ruined their argument.

Well youve twisted around the argument of surface area, trying to get me to argue Raziels claw sizes when its completly irrelevent to the point at hand, which was that Kain took pressure on Raziels claws which are extremely high compared to Raziel being wounded by regular humans....

Theres also a ton of red herrings, most of what were discussing has nothing to do with the original argument which was Kratos' speed or Dantes, you trying to claim CC has somehow disproved everything instead of actually proving things yourself waylaid the real arguments.

I could say the same about you.

Well I half made that calc.. Originally calc'd it and posted it here, thinking I made it first. Then a lil while later found the Clark feat and.. some other similar one where the people did the same method I did to get the same result. And no Neph, Im not an OBD member.. well, not yet at least.

BT, how can you say the rain calc is wrong if you dont even get it? Since you asked so kindly for me to nicely explain to you (<___<😉 The formula for time dilation feats:
(Real speed/Dilated speed)*(Persons speed)
(Rain's min 2m/s / Dilated 0.001m/s)*(2.5m/s min movements)
^Lowballed figures for fairness.

You get the time difference between something thats effected by the effect then times it by the movement speed.

@BT: Now youre assuming that A) the best of the best Blackwatch arent good enough to fly a heli in the straight lines that NY is and that B) that the chases are always around skyscrapers. IIRC around a quarter of NY is skyscrapers, most is normal buildings and still enough room for many areas with low buildings. Not to mention Central Park. My claim is that the military, especially Blackwatch, will let Alex slip out of their fingers because they were too scared to go full speed. And yes, several times in the can you have cars speeding away from combat or the infected. Theyre not suicidal enough to slowly drive away.
Because of Kain's super peak human speed? Soul Reaver fights say hi. First match, Kain is brought to pain and barely wins when Raziel is only using his claws. Defiance match, only canonly got struck by the Blade once, and before that was stalemating/losing to a guy with 1/5th the speed and strength of Mercer.

IIRC there was a cutscene where he mentions all the voices screaming in his head. Plus Charm would need to prove that it can effect a conscious without a brain.

Mundus' 10 year 100% control > Charm. Yeah, Dante's identical twin brother who share the same powers and bloodline who is < Dante. If Vergil can do it, Dante can do it and maybe better.

Kay~ But still want to know why you think Kain's soul powers will work where Hades' failed.

DMC4 vs Nero, go watch. There are 3 reaction-after-shot scenes with the gameply having Dante shoot bullets out of mid air. Reacting after a shot =/= aimdodging. Who says Kain does? Simple, as Kain knows where he's going to 'port to next he obviously knows what he's going to do when he appears. Its the same as saying "Punch the target when you see the red light flash". You know what you have to do when you when the light comes on the same as Kain knows that he's to attack as soon as he appears.

Besides it amping [DMC gauntlets amp by 5x] Dante's high-above-Raziel strength: "Devil May Cry, Enemy File - Frost: "Although impervious even to volcanic fire, the frosts are weak to higher realms of incendiary. Use the hellfire of Ifrit to counter them."" Magma does nothing but Ifrit easily wrecks them.
But Kratos has a good soul resistance feat. And Ive seen the Reaver strike Raziel, Moebius, Kain, Moebius again, the old Raziel and I think someone else without instantly taking their souls. Dunno, a punch from Zeus who is > Cronos (?) cant be far from Kain's slash if not above it. To even get to this Kain will have to strike above Kratos' reactions and make the huge risk of getting that close to someone that could tear him apart.

Just as I cant say QS's range is infinite, you can't suggest a finite range for it. Though if we must, going by gameplay it can effect everything on the screen. Given the size of some areas the radius of effect would be 50-100m minimum. And you cant compare the time fragment to QS by any means. TF slows time by 1/5, QS is 1/1000. So even if by chance they activate it at the same time, QS will still slow Kain down by 200x. He can simply walk and appear supersonic to Kain. Yeah the momentum thing is your idea, doesnt hold water. But it doesnt, in gameplay it drains the meter as fast as DT does. Same time. TBH you may as well not bother to argue how long it takes, because unless you want to try bring it down to.. 10 seconds, that'd still be plenty of time to get to Kain and do whatever he likes.

A lot of people as in that one guy who made a single post and left? Though hearing you use the 'appeal to audience' that you always claim I used if fun. No. The Dash is speed. Air Trick is a teleport. Same appearance as Vergil's, proved by the momentum/mid air break issue, its re-entry and that he can do it in mid air. Youve yet to prove that Dante cant go from 0 to hypersonic, remember; its your claim. So yes, if* Kain grabs Dante with TK he can simply 'Port away.
*Thats if Kain can catch Dante who, even as a mere Ma1, vastly outclasses Kain's reactions and speed. And if Kain will risk standing there trying while the others are attacking him.

The first Dante vs Nero fight. You claim that Dante is only Mach 1, I could spend some time re-telling you how wrong you are.. or I could just go with it for a sec and ask: How on Earth is Kain going to react to Mach 1 movements?

Ok, time for Nephthys' Super-Serious Mode.

Originally posted by Burning thought
😆 since when is saying "I belive he misjudged the calculation" a pesonal attack? If anything, your the only one who makes personal attacks or trolls out of the two of us. Disprove what? I disproved it as soon as I pointed out the faulty logic behind it....how is that so hard to understand? also stop straw manning me.

Its not a source tbh, no more than me making a website where I claim Kain is a God who can take out universes with his sneezes....it holds no weight because its made by posters who may be just as equelly bias as anyone on here if not more. Also, assuming you like this source, I gues that means you agree Kain has hypersonic+ reactions and can afterall react to dante, therefore making this debate between us useless? Kain does exactly what I said he would do by your source, and logic in general both.

Again, you sort of just ignored the debate then re-stated your opinion, unproven might I add. Even if we had the "Mach speed" proven for Dante, we dont have a momentum where he can run from, you dont have much to suggest he can blitz anyone at the moment.

Show me, show me this "break", because it seems like your reaching. How can you have a break between Dante saying he hates his brother and attacking to the friction clash scene? You cant....they have literally taken a piece out of the cutscene.

Since you asked, I would have to say since you tried to dismiss arguments with that line of reasoning. And considering the feat in question still being argued in that respect thread you said you wouldn't argue in I'd say that you did not disprove diddily squat.

I never claimed that it was a source. Please do not put words into my mouth. All I said was that logically, when two different, non-alligned people calculate a feat and arrive at corresponding conclusions that in some way adds credence to the idea that they are both right, as they mutually support each other. And since I've seen nothing that supports Kain being hypersonic, no, I do not think that. As I said I'm not using it as a source and I assure you that every time I've used the OBD I've actually gone the extra mile and googled the information it refers to, i.e. looked up the source myself. I don't blindly claim things based off of it, nor do I think I'd make that my practise in the future.

I believe the evidence as been presented to you in sufficient amounts that it would make it unnecessary for me to replicate doing as such. I don't get where you are getting this notion that Dante needs to build up momentum to increase his speed. He certainly never displayed such a weakness during the numerous scenes Bloodrain has provided you where he has moved with superspeed and gotten into 'Super-Speed Mode' instantaneously. Such as in the Alastor scene, where the falling glass slows to a crawl as soon as Dante starts to swing the sword.

Well there are two possible points where there could be a cut. The first could be at 3.52 of the Dante vs Vergil video when Dante runs at Vergil and then we cut to their swords clashing. The fight could easily have taken place between said cut.

gQeRRZv8YcM#t=3m14s

The second could be at 1.24 of the Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening intro when we cut from a shot of Dante and Vergil locking swords to a close up of then again locking swords. It could be argued that this close up did not immediately proceed the first shot and that the rest of the scene happened off camera for the sake of brevity.

YouTube video

Of course you'll argue the likelihood of my claims but nontheless this establishes that you have no call to dismiss the intro as an explanation does exist that enables the two scenes to be mutually established.

Originally posted by BloodRain

Show me how you got the "dilated" speed? specifically.

IMe not assuming anything, ime pointing out that theres no facts concerning how fast or slow certain helicopters went, logically speaking half of the areas you travel, those with copters in have high buildings, higher than the copters themselves are flying at the time and also, they seem to iirc speed up when they leave Mercer (assuming he avoided them and went to hide) when they leave the setting. Theres no case here for him chaseing after them at 200 mph.

Barely wins? lol, Kain just one shots Raziel, after getting hit in the face or eyes or w/e, no real damage and its been conned, then weve got the Defiance scene, we dont know what Raziel used to weaken Kain, he has vastly more powers at his disposal than mercer though and the fact he has the wraith blade on his arm at the end kinda implies he was using it before the final strike as well.....

Erm no, sorry. No feat for Dante, you cant claim Dante can do everything better, Dante simply defeated Vergil, Vergil was corrupted, not Dante, he wasnt even influenced by Mundus tbh.

Because Kain does not hook onto a soul and physically drag it out, it devours it fully on the spiritual plane without giving kratos any time to wonder where his soul has gone.

How does he know? he calculates where his next dimention port is going to be which is a combination of decision and error correction (these people are still moving, kain hasnt time stopped them), he then appears and chooses a strike which is different depending on where Kain appears from, humans on the other hand can sit there, know somethings going to happen and react to visual and movement stimulai, as well as sound at once, kain has nothing before the 0.1/0.2 second he appears.

Ifrit is a demon weapon, wielded by Dante, why wouldnt it wreck them? Does ifrit simply melt them then? because iirc you fight them like most enemies, you cant just melt them with ifrit. youve not seen the reaver strike anyone other than maybe the Sarafan lord and Kain. Excuse me? how is Zeus stronger than chronos? and even then, 1 square mm vs the area of a punch? a square inch or two?

So its area is about the same as Kains time powers, whcih woudlnt work beyond a room so unless Kain is well within Dantes range anywhere, or the other characters he cant solely rely on QS. Also where are you getting 1/1000 from? it looks more or less exactly the same on living entities. 😆 doesnt hold water, Dante doesnt have to build momentum for speed now? just because Superman in smallville doesnt have to? or metro man? is this your logic? you know, theres probably a fallacy for that but I cba to look it up. Maybe if we can use other fictions to apprently add abilities to characters ill drag up every vampire movie and see if I can get some new powers for kain?

Do "whatever he likes"?, no its not plenty of time, Kain has to move his hand idly, even in slow motion thats not going to be hard and further, Kains going to, as per reaction start moving before Dantes brain calculates, moving his head a few inches doesnt give him mach speed reaction.

Air trick like most of trickster abilities seem purely based off speed, the description for trickster is "Aim above an enemy's head and disappear in the blink of an eye with blindingly quick movements", so its speed, not teleport. Also thats a negative, I dont have to prove Dante cannot go from zero to hypersonic, you have to prove he can, which is the positive. You cant claim, "well you cant prove he cant!" for everything, no more than I can say "you cant prove Kain cant go light speed!" and claim he was just jobbing and not trying through the game like you seem to think Dante does.

Well if i do a Neph, Kains got hypersonic+ reactions, second, supersonic from certain distance is easily reacted to, like I said before concerning irl jets, they go supersonic but you can easily see them in the sky because of the distance, if you cant see or perceive them then airshows would be pretty shit. In this case, Dante is reacting at about 0.3, he can taking into account momentum probably start about 100-200 mph running speed if that although I would doubt that, Kain has to shake his hand...Dantes feet are not on the ground...game set and match. Then Kain drinks his blood and blitzes the rest of the people with his newfound speed.

Originally posted by Nephthys

People argue thngs regardless of how disproven they are.

They say a load of ridiculous bs on that site, including Kain at hypersonic+ reactions and that Kratos would be beaten by Rexar out of rug rats... so your logic really is that this is a good source because there just happens to be a calc in it that seems similiar/the same as this one? By people who may be just as misguided?

The Alastor scene is not really speed though as I said before, fallacy ad nauseum Neph? Second, assuming it was, for one second...this is a special power from a special sword, not Dante using his regular devil power. Also we dont see him build up or start that rain scene either, thats not momentum or running though, your claiming he can run at mach 1-mach 15 just because he can trade blows that may be at mach 15, its not the same thing. Weve never actually seen Dante run at more than peak human speed beyond the DMC 3 tower scene where he gets given motion before he speeds himself up....

What do you mean? theres no cut at that point in the video, their just stareing at eachother for a split second befere they clash, I thought you were actually going to point out points in these vids where there seems to be a change of scene or cut in the cinematic like gameplay...

Everything before the frictional hit, where their swords heat and it gets launched into the air, and Dante impaled was changed to Dante and Vergil talking. Theres no way you could somehow edge in/assume you can slot in this other scene at some point just because you belive it should be there. It was, like DMc is known for a flashy, "cool" scene shown early in the intro, which is taken out for actual storyline.

Also explain how Beowulf, Vergil and even lady can tag/hit dante with their slow attacks if he can react/move at mach 15? so many levels beyond he would even need to dodge said moves?

Theres also the fact Kain has surprise, and Dante does not have precog.

Until the momentum thing is sorted out, Dantes speed at max is irrelevent, as are his reactions compared to Kains. even in slow mo, Kain only needs a fraction of a second, or slowed down, a couple of seconds to jiggle his fingers...and Dantes feet are off the ground, he cant build momentum or run at Kain if he cant touch the floor.

Also dodging bullets is not the same as dodging sowrds, sowrds being many many times longer/larger, the fact he just moved out of the way, with an inch or two to spare proves that if it was a sword aiming for his chest or such he wouldnt have been quick enough. Theres also the fact that Dantes strength isnt all that high so whats he going to do if he gets to Kain? impale him? great...he will lose his sword because even his soft flesh is hard to pull the sword from, let alone Kains super dimamond alloy alike+ skin. Also, when he slashes humans, they react as if their hit by a peak human at best by getting knocked a meter or so and Kiris brother just got up after the slash so wheres this E10 force? Kain does not canonically slash humans in such a manner so theres no double standard there, not to mension most of these bullet feats can be brought down to the fact a gun is a weapon of obvious intent, it can be assumed where the bullets are going to go from where the user is pointing so you can "predict" with bullets and not need to be able to avoid much in the process (a tiny piece of metal). Its not like dodging a sword.

What are Nero's guns made out of as well? because Dante brings his whole sword down on one and it just bounces off....if your claiming dante has more strength than Raziel, and less surface area on his sword edge then your saying neros guns apprently are forged in some sort of human metal that can take multiples times earth core pressure, if not tens if not hundrreds of times if you think Dante scales so highly.....Occam just rolled over.

"Dante does not have precog."

Besides him dodging Lady's bullet and slashing her rocket without looking at either, countering Arkham's sneak attack, all supersonic+ so its not sound reaction. And knowing Nelo was approaching.

"when he slashes humans, they react as if their hit by a peak human at best"
"because Dante brings his whole sword down on one and it just bounces off"

Not the best claims youve made. Why assume that Dante is going to use his full force against weakass demons when that was all that was needed? A carpenter doesnt use max strength to hammer in a nail like how you wouldnt use full force when play fighting with your nephew. He was acting as he was in the anime. Same with Nero, already being covered by the Devs stating he was just toying with Nero.

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(Real speed/Dilated speed) 😕

To expand; if a sprinter runs past you at 10m/s, but to you he appears to be moving at 1m/s then the dilation is makes it so everything is moving at 1/10th its actual speed. In other words everything should be moving 10 times faster. So any movements you makes are really 10m times faster. So if you were to make a 5m/s movement during this dilation that movement is really 50m/s.

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Fact: Thats their top speed. Fact: Blackwatch will do /anything/ to catch Mercer. And no time that I recall was I pursued by a copter when it wasnt above the buildings or through the 20m gaps between buildings to where the blades are only 10 in diameter, plenty of room to navigate. I cant remember, have you given a solid reason to why they would not want to give full chase?

Yes, after a fight where Raziel with claws alone where Kain was so even that in physical confrontation he ends up being the one in pain. Canonly Kain only stuck Raziel after the fight as thats an event, and Raziel had no weapon to block with. So Raziel's speed and strength alone was enough to stalemate Kain.

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Hmmm, would you look at that.. turns out I can. Twin brothers, same blood, same powers, same abilities... oh but this one thing /must/ be different? Ok, go ahead and prove that theyre different.

Theres also what happens when you try to absorb Dante's blood and soul.

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Who cares? A soul resistance feat is a soul resistance feat. No one in LoK has any soul resistance feats, that points to Kratos fairing better than anyone from the verse against the Reaver.

Several of those LoK characters were stabbed by the Reaver. And the Sarafan lord was almost beaten to death by the time he was stabbed.

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Occam's says he thinks "need to port there, then slash" unless you have something that says its the kinda complex method you suggest for this.

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Because Alastor, a demon weapon, wielded by Dante, doesnt. 'ang on a sec, are you trying to argue the the statements are wrong because they didnt create a whole new death animation for it? Impervious to volcanic fire, weak to higher realms of incendiary like Ifrit. Its like the difference between the water and lava to us.

Youre right, supposed to say equal to. Kratos' strength matched Cronos', Zeus matches his. SA used for the tip, 0.000001m^2. SA of a fist, 0.005m^2. 1/5000th the area, so Zeus would have to be 5,000 times stronger than Kain for his punches to have the same pressure. In other words a 9.35e9 N punch has the same pressure as Kain's stab. For a sense of scale thats a character 156x stronger than Link. And I dont think I have to convince you that Kratos is easily above that.

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If he can stop people 100+m away[demon centipede room iirc is larger, meh] then yes. I doubt that there will be a moment where anyone is more than 100m, the length of a football pitch, away from Dante. Two differences to Kain and Dante's time power; Kain takes a second to activate his, both of Dante is nigh instantaneous. The other is that like Dante's Chrono Heart, the only way to find the dilation of the Time Fragment is through gameplay, at best 1/5th. The benefit Quicksilver has is it comes with a cutscene in which shows rocks falling 10m/s minimum appearing to move a cm per second. At least 1/1000th normal speed.
Also someone else brought it up but I didnt take second notice til I saw it now, when its activated why does Kain himself move slightly slower? As everything appears 5 times slower, Kain himself appears at half his speed [to where his normal gameplay attacks take .23s, when it happens it takes .5s per attack]. So really, Kain's dilation is 1/2.5. What a strange feature...

No what doesnt hold water is how you have nothing to suggest that such a common speed asset wont effect Dante. As said in the other thread, you believe that Dante is the exception to this superhuman speed rule and for some reason despite his supersonic speed wont have acceleration above a greyhound, so go and prove your claim.

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Im afraid it is. You see, even with both time powers up, ignoring that Dante can use a second one, Kain will still be moving at 1/200-400th his normal speed [1000/ 5-2.5]. Kains 0.1 reactions will appear to take 20-40 whole seconds. Like this even a human can blitz him by walking. Kinda funny, Kain will think [0.1s] and move [0.2s] that takes 0.3s total before Dante's brain can process information? So in your mind Dante has 0.5s visual reactions? So not a peak 0.1s, an average 0.2s or a slower minded 0.3s... no, you think Kain's peak human mind and movements can be done before Dante can think. So the supersonic Dante has the mental speed below that of a mentally retarded child? 😐

Not that irs needed for this level of claims, but Just Block/Release state that Dante has to act 1/10th of a second before an enemy attacks. Thats >peak easily to say nothing his speed.

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Most of Trickster? Only Dash and Sky star Star, the air version of Dash, are based around speed. To quote Trickster; "Style that allows the player to avoid enemy attacks using special evasive movements." Trickster is about evasion, not pure speed. And like I just said to which Im sure youre ignoring; "Same appearance as Vergil's, proved by the momentum/mid air break issue, its re-entry and that he can do it in mid air."
You dont have to prove the claims you make? Interesting. If you recall, its your claim. Your claim he cant do it. Your claim his superhuman/supersonic/hypersonic acceleration is below that of a normal greyhound. Your claim that Dante is an exception to what all other superspeed characters can do. For instance; Hey BT, prove that Raziel can put his full obelisk-tipping force into a strike. And prove that Kain can instantly gather his full strength. Asking you to prove a positive, a positive with no base claim, logical reasoning or anything to think that he cant.

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Thats a poor impression, you didnt add any cutesy remarks that she would mmm.

Neph iirc said that if more than one person (in this case 4 different people) do a calc and come up with the same answer, it says that its credible. Ya see, Ive actually investigated that hypersonic claim and the person who made it; A random LoK fan who said that because one of his special attacks looks fast. And if I remember someone then compared it to Dante's gameplay attack as a sort of proof. So no. And supersonic Jets look slower from a considerable distance. At best 0.1 RT can react to Mach 1 from 34m away, to be able to tag him with peak speed it will have to be from 68m away.. And thats if the Mach 1 person was spotted before traveled in a straight line. Both things being unlikely for any character not slow in the head. Oh, and airshows /are/ pretty shit ;3

For lack of a better term, what youre doing is Anti-Fan Wank (C) to assume;
- That Dante has the visual reactions of a slow human.
- That a 20m/s greyhound can get to max in a second, yet a Mach 1 character will somehow take longer.
- That Kain's mere human reactions could tag a supersonic foe.
- That Kain will somehow gain Dante's speed from drinking his blood 😐

And this is why;
- It doesnt take a genius to understand that a supersonic being will have adequate reactions. To assume that someone like Dante has reactions below the average human is utterly ridicules. How many slow minded humans do you know that can react to a Mach 2 bullet shot 2m from their head?
- Besides it being blindingly obvious to anyone that you just made up this momentum claim. A claim that that only holds to a minuscule minority that you refuse to say how it applies to Dante. And for some reason thinking that a superhuman thats far stronger and faster than a dog will have less acceleration.
- He can tag a sonic being in the same way a human can catch a bullet...
- To think that Kain can somehow drink demon blood and gain abilities that are not specific Dark Gifts of the character. And to think that trying to absorb Dante wont make Kain suffer the same fate as Alice in the manga.

Originally posted by BloodRain

"dodging" lady's bullet, lady is like the worst shot in DMC, she fires a hail of bullets at one point and does not get a single shot on Dante iirc. And thats not supersonic+ or proof of precog.

So he uses less than human force or what? he could barely cut things up in the intro and those were weakass demons. "toying" is not the same as saying everything in the fight was Dante at his worst and Nero at his best, Neros devil arm is more powerful than anything dantes done.

Again, baseless claims. Your using motive for someone to claim a feat, thats useless, its only barely logical. Yes they "may" stop at nothing but thats just a claim, theres no real speed there.

Also how do you know all this? when we dont see it happe? amazing....we know his final attack was with the wraith blade.

Erm no you cant, your making up feats and then pretending they all have the same power set. Again, nonsense.

No, it points to him being great against the reaver if it had to physically draw your soul out.

How can he "think" that in .3 seconds, apprently you think hes capable of concious thought during this, not just stimulai? probably a better feat than i would give him.

😆 Kratos' strength matches, more or less Chronos playfully prodding him with his finger and laughing at Kratos' counters does not= same strength, you dont seem to know much on GoW, infact your only area of knowledge so far seems to be DMC.

Show me your sources on rocks of that weight falling such, then show me cutscene caps of this, then prove that stopping rocks is the same as stopping living entites.

Sorry, no feat. Just you complaining, you dont have a feat for Dante so your back is up against a wall and you cant seem to figuire a way to counter me here other than try and use other peoples feats as Dantes, its like Dante is inadequate but this cant bet true, so you have to try and play the idea he has other peoples powers or something? weird.....

Well they wont because 0.1 is faster than Dantes, so Kain will already be wiggling his hands no doubt before Dante has processed. Also, decision making is done at more than 0.1, what the hell....your source even points out that error correction or decision making can create even more time, further what movement is Dante reacting to? nothing, hes percieving Kain but not reacting or decision making until hes got the thoughts going. Then hes got to build up momentum to cover an area, Kains got to wiggle his hand, Dante has to sprint or walk across tens of meters at least....hes going to be floating in the air, doing acrobatics on kains whim before he knows it.

😆 Again with the Vergil BS comparisons, Vergil does not use trickster style, he has his own which iirc is a teleport. Dante has no telepor,t he has speed.

No, Ive yet to see Dante with beyond human decision making powers, he can make some quick movements in short range but hes never made a vast number of decisions like Kain has to in the port.

-Kain does not have to tag, only wave his hand, Dante has to tag to hope for a wound though.

Also bullshit on the "reacted to the bullet", as if Nero pointing a gun so closely would not allow Dante to see Nero or his trigger finger. If anything, based on Dantes face it looks like he just moved in time, as if his reactions cought up and he ducked slightly to avoid. Thats apprently giving Dante mach 15 running speed now? 😆

I dont have to say a physical function applies to Dante, you have to prove that common sense is wrong and that Dant has feats for this special power your making up.

Why would Kain suffer the same fate? youve not really given any context, has it worked on udnead vamps before? Kains mind is vastly stronger than the average, it seems Alice from her hunger is not some advanced being of mental high capacity anyway. And Demon blood? Hyldens are more or less as close to "DMC" demons as one can get, Kains proven he can drink from beings of an opposite counter spiecies to his own and still gain their powers so Dantes physical speed is no question tbh.

So far youve not countered-

Momentum, youve claimed incredously that Dante "obviously" can run at mach speeds instantly? prove it...while your doing that watch DMC 3;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZrVs4pfvVw&feature=related#t=13m5s

Why does he have to slowly gain on his supersonic sword? why cant he, ala BR's theories of "always proveness by his own claims" just instantly go to mach speed and snatch the sword out of the air? oh no...he cant, he has to slowly gain on it, it took him a few seconds of the videos time to catch it as well....

Tbh, ive yet to even see Dante go mach speed on foot, youve made silly stripulations on how he can run at the same speed he moves his arms as if hes physically creating energy like a human being.

Youve also not countered Kains TK, on the slightest whim/hand movement Dante is off the floor and Kains finishing this thread quite easily after that. Hell, Kain could if he really wants to avoid quicksiver just turn to mist and fly into the air, Dante wastes his best weapon and has nothing to harm Kain in such a form. Until you prove the above, Tk on a whim is all Kain needs.

Also wtf bringing up ifrit, a weapon he gained years ago as if its standard equipment.

Oh yeah, I havn't replied yet~

I'll do it tomorrow. 😖hrug:

lazy

I am so very lazy. Cats ain't got nothin' on me.

Too busy deciding what colour to pick to write... typical :V

Will reply when not on le shitty phone. Those those emoticons I see better not be part those BT-obnoxious-style posts that you havnt made in a while >_____>

Dont give me obnoxious, your entire post style is obnxious.

Lol kk

I figure I might as well point out that Alex Mercer's running speed has been calced at 280 miles per hour.