No, but they are enlightening. I'm not sure if Borbarad is quite on tdtd's level with regards to the ability to create perceptive arguments, but there's no doubt that he's definitely one of the wisest and most insightful posters that I've ever read. It definitely makes sense that we would disregard the quote from The Dark Empire Sourcebook; it was written in the very early 1990s and canon has changed so much and it's not like there's any real basis that Sidious's knowledge remotely approached significant. If I were the arbiter of canon, I'd toss it all out. Utter hogwash, IMHO.
Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
Why would you, when there's a fresh, delicious bag of Revanchips waiting to be devoured by those willing to satisfy not only their hunger but their need for the truth of the universe?The evidence for his supremacy is simply overwhelming.
Ooooh no. Too spicy for me.
I just saw this right now. And without wanting to start an interaction with a banned user, I think I have to react to this:
Originally posted by RevanSpoilers
No, but they are enlightening. I'm not sure if Borbarad is quite on tdtd's level with regards to the ability to create perceptive arguments, but there's no doubt that he's definitely one of the wisest and most insightful posters that I've ever read. It definitely makes sense that we would disregard the quote from The Dark Empire Sourcebook; it was written in the very early 1990s and canon has changed so much and it's not like there's any real basis that Sidious's knowledge remotely approached significant. If I were the arbiter of canon, I'd toss it all out. Utter hogwash, IMHO.
No, it doesn't make sense to disregard quotes, because they remain part of the overall canon, even if details within the canon change. However. It is indispensable, to apply context to quotes, an art, that was and is commonly ignored in these realms here.
Of course a statement given in 1993 can only refer to information present at that very time, unless somebody wants to argue, that the person writing it down, was gifted with some nice forsight ability. So "all the known powers" in this context means "all the known powers in 1993", which were those in the original trilogy, those in the Zahn works and those in the "Dark Empire" comics - as I've mentioned before.
It makes absolutely no sense to attempt an apply this quote to later works introducing new information to the series, which would broaden the term "all the known powers" quite a bit - far beyond the original meaning it had in 1993.
Not that a consideration of that very quote in question makes much sense at all. If somebody actually checks the source (Dark Empire Sourcebook, p.38)...
....he will find out that the quote is part of the game mechanics contained within the sourcebook. To be precise: The sole fuction of that quote is to given an explanation for Emperor Palpatine's "Alter Force" stat - which is explained here. As, in general, game mechanics are considered to be not canon, this quote can be ruled out right here already.
But let us asume, that we should consider it canon - for the sole reason to have a nice quote that "proves" the superiority of Darth Sidious. We'd still need to take certain things into consideration.
I. Wording
Let us just have a look on the complete quote rather than the excerpt usually used in this very forum:
"It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure" - Dark Empire Sourcebook, p.38.
Emphasis mine. The wording of the quote makes it pretty clear, than rather than communicating a well established fact, the sourcebook give us some speculation here. Yet, we don't even get a hint who does make this assumption. And there is a specific reason, why it doesn't try to establish a fact. First: because we're dealing with game mechanics. Second: Because we're dealing with an RPG sourcebook.
II. Nature of the Source / Intention of the Author
To come up with a proper analysis, one needs to understand the nature of a source, coupled to the intention of the author. There is a very narrow defined target audience for RPG sourcebooks: RPG players. Those are people who want to experience the SW universe first hand. Or, to be more precise: Their own version of the SW universe, using their own characters. And because RPG books are written for that audience with the specific goal to allow them to experience "their" universe, they can't establish new facts for the canon universe.
This is, maybe, easier to understand, when one thinks about computer RPGs. In those, one can usually choose the gender of the player-character. Yet, for canon purpose, one gender is chosen. We know that Revan is male; we know that the Exile is female - yet, every KotoR player creates his own figures and, as a result his own "version of the SW universe. The same happens in the pen and paper version.
In that light, the specific sentences is obviously put in that very place, to give gamemasters the possibility to led Sidious do everything they like. If he actually had such a plethora of abilities at his disposal, as some people like to believe - or anything remotely close - in the canon SW universe, he would still rule the Galaxy.
But if somebody wants to accept such a statement without question, ignoring the context, just to promote the own oppinion, I would direct him towards the "Tales of the Jedi Companion":
"Freedon Nadd has knowledge of all Jedi and Sith Force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes" - TotJC, p.70.
Unlike the statement describing (DE) Sidious, this is no reference to an assumption, but simple equips Nadd with all the powers presented in the book, including DE Sidious version of force storms (see p.60 of the same book). Not to mention that both Nadd and Arca Jeth come close to DE Sidious "force alter" stat.
That is how analysing a quote works, instead of just using it without second thought. I could also state that this is the difference between believing and thinking, but meh...some people will never learn.
And since I already mentioned it, another prime example of the species of "SW fans incapable of understanding the material they want to discuss":
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious spent all that time searching about a million different worlds to master only the few techniques that were shown from ROTJ to DE. lol
Seriously?
First: Even if we take Sidious as of DE as example, he demonstrated / taught more force abilities, than almost any other character in the mythos (with exception of Luke Skywalker): force lightning, telekinesis, force shields, transfer essence, force storm, the ability to "imbue" people with a part of his power, the doppelgänger ability taught to Skywalker, battle meditation and the ability to communicate via telepathy on a galactic scale. Few? Right. 🙄
Yet, I think we have another SW fan having a hard time understanding the following quote:
"With the resources of a galaxy at his disposal, he gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds." - Dark Empire Sourcebook, p.67.
Verifying a source by quoting a different page of the same source, does clearly not belong to the smartest actions performed in the history of arguments. Especially not, when quoting out of context. Here is the full passage:
"Since the Dark Side didn't lend itself to sharing and other such weak-minded attitudes, there had not been organizations of Dark
Side servants to endure the ages. There was no great collection of Dark Side lore, nor any gathering of its masters. Realizing the task that lay before him, Palpatine knew he must begin at once to attain
control over the Dark Side.
With the resources of a galaxy at his disposal, he gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds. He studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was
the shamanism of Jarvashqiine or the tales of the Tyia." - Dark Empire Sourcebook, p.66-67.
Emphasis mine. From those words alone, it is fairly obvious, that the "Dark Empire Sourcebook" is hopelessly outdated in that passage. The Sith as a "historical" organisation (dating back several thousand years) weren't yet invented, nor was Sidious Rule-of-Two order. There was no collection of Dark Side lore invented (Dark Side libraries like Malachor V introduced later). So Sidious, and this is what the quote makes clear, had to rely on exotic ways to educate himself in the ways of the force. Two of them are even given there: Shamanism and tales. So his "knowledge" came in the form of philosophy and narrative, at least partitially.
You have to understand that, when those sources were released, the general consesus regarding "Sith Lore" was this:
"Even 4,000 years ago, when the Jedi Exar Kun first sought the forbidden teachings, they were virtually impossible to find. The true power of the Sith has largely passed from the universe. [...] The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun; it is extremly unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin Four, or elsewhere[...]" - The Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.50.
On this basis, most quotes from the Dark Empire Sourcebook are of little use when attempting to determine the actual knowledge and / or powerlevel of certain characters, because they were describing an entirely different version of the SW universe. An universe that, in fact, didn't know any other Sith than Palpatine and had no actual information about how Sidious learned the ways of the force and what knowledge he had exactly.
Originally posted by BorbaradI've never idolized internet peoples, but Nai's come the closest. Critical analysis FTW.
I just saw this right now. And without wanting to start an interaction with a banned user, I think I have to react to this:No, it doesn't make sense to disregard quotes, because they remain part of the overall canon, even if details within the canon change. However. It is indispensable, to apply context to quotes, an art, that was and is commonly ignored in these realms here.
Of course a statement given in 1993 can only refer to information present at that very time, unless somebody wants to argue, that the person writing it down, was gifted with some nice forsight ability. So "all the known powers" in this context means "all the known powers in 1993", which were those in the original trilogy, those in the Zahn works and those in the "Dark Empire" comics - as I've mentioned before.
It makes absolutely no sense to attempt an apply this quote to later works introducing new information to the series, which would broaden the term "all the known powers" quite a bit - far beyond the original meaning it had in 1993.
Not that a consideration of that very quote in question makes much sense at all. If somebody actually checks the source (Dark Empire Sourcebook, p.38)...
....he will find out that the quote is part of the game mechanics contained within the sourcebook. To be precise: The sole fuction of that quote is to given an explanation for Emperor Palpatine's "Alter Force" stat - which is explained here. As, in general, game mechanics are considered to be not canon, this quote can be ruled out right here already.
But let us asume, that we should consider it canon - for the sole reason to have a nice quote that "proves" the superiority of Darth Sidious. We'd still need to take certain things into consideration.
[b]I. Wording
Let us just have a look on the complete quote rather than the excerpt usually used in this very forum:"It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure" - Dark Empire Sourcebook, p.38.
Emphasis mine. The wording of the quote makes it pretty clear, than rather than communicating a well established fact, the sourcebook give us some speculation here. Yet, we don't even get a hint who does make this assumption. And there is a specific reason, why it doesn't try to establish a fact. First: because we're dealing with game mechanics. Second: Because we're dealing with an RPG sourcebook.
II. Nature of the Source / Intention of the Author
To come up with a proper analysis, one needs to understand the nature of a source, coupled to the intention of the author. There is a very narrow defined target audience for RPG sourcebooks: RPG players. Those are people who want to experience the SW universe first hand. Or, to be more precise: Their own version of the SW universe, using their own characters. And because RPG books are written for that audience with the specific goal to allow them to experience "their" universe, they can't establish new facts for the canon universe.This is, maybe, easier to understand, when one thinks about computer RPGs. In those, one can usually choose the gender of the player-character. Yet, for canon purpose, one gender is chosen. We know that Revan is male; we know that the Exile is female - yet, every KotoR player creates his own figures and, as a result his own "version of the SW universe. The same happens in the pen and paper version.
In that light, the specific sentences is obviously put in that very place, to give gamemasters the possibility to led Sidious do everything they like. If he actually had such a plethora of abilities at his disposal, as some people like to believe - or anything remotely close - in the canon SW universe, he would still rule the Galaxy.
But if somebody wants to accept such a statement without question, ignoring the context, just to promote the own oppinion, I would direct him towards the "Tales of the Jedi Companion":
"Freedon Nadd has knowledge of all Jedi and Sith Force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes" - TotJC, p.70.
Unlike the statement describing (DE) Sidious, this is no reference to an assumption, but simple equips Nadd with all the powers presented in the book, including DE Sidious version of force storms (see p.60 of the same book). Not to mention that both Nadd and Arca Jeth come close to DE Sidious "force alter" stat.
That is how analysing a quote works, instead of just using it without second thought. I could also state that this is the difference between believing and thinking, but meh...some people will never learn.
And since I already mentioned it, another prime example of the species of "SW fans incapable of understanding the material they want to discuss":
Seriously?
First: Even if we take Sidious as of DE as example, he demonstrated / taught more force abilities, than almost any other character in the mythos (with exception of Luke Skywalker): force lightning, telekinesis, force shields, transfer essence, force storm, the ability to "imbue" people with a part of his power, the doppelgänger ability taught to Skywalker, battle meditation and the ability to communicate via telepathy on a galactic scale. Few? Right. 🙄
Yet, I think we have another SW fan having a hard time understanding the following quote:
"With the resources of a galaxy at his disposal, he gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds." - Dark Empire Sourcebook, p.67.
Verifying a source by quoting a different page of the same source, does clearly not belong to the smartest actions performed in the history of arguments. Especially not, when quoting out of context. Here is the full passage:
"Since the Dark Side didn't lend itself to sharing and other such weak-minded attitudes, there had not been organizations of Dark
Side servants to endure the ages. There was no great collection of Dark Side lore, nor any gathering of its masters. Realizing the task that lay before him, Palpatine knew he must begin at once to attain
control over the Dark Side.
With the resources of a galaxy at his disposal, he gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds. He studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was
the shamanism of Jarvashqiine or the tales of the Tyia." - Dark Empire Sourcebook, p.66-67.Emphasis mine. From those words alone, it is fairly obvious, that the "Dark Empire Sourcebook" is hopelessly outdated in that passage. The Sith as a "historical" organisation (dating back several thousand years) weren't yet invented, nor was Sidious Rule-of-Two order. There was no collection of Dark Side lore invented (Dark Side libraries like Malachor V introduced later). So Sidious, and this is what the quote makes clear, had to rely on exotic ways to educate himself in the ways of the force. Two of them are even given there: Shamanism and tales. So his "knowledge" came in the form of philosophy and narrative, at least partitially.
You have to understand that, when those sources were released, the general consesus regarding "Sith Lore" was this:
"Even 4,000 years ago, when the Jedi Exar Kun first sought the forbidden teachings, they were virtually impossible to find. The true power of the Sith has largely passed from the universe. [...] The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun; it is extremly unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin Four, or elsewhere[...]" - The Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.50.
On this basis, most quotes from the Dark Empire Sourcebook are of little use when attempting to determine the actual knowledge and / or powerlevel of certain characters, because they were describing an entirely different version of the SW universe. An universe that, in fact, didn't know any other Sith than Palpatine and had no actual information about how Sidious learned the ways of the force and what knowledge he had exactly. [/B]
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I've never idolized internet peoples, but Nai's come the closest. Critical analysis FTW.
He is rather dreamy, isn't he? I'll be more inclined to buy what he's selling the moment he applies that titillating analytical sight on a subject other than Palpatine. Because it seems to me, as the new guy, Borbarad is very much willing to accept any other quote about the likes of Ragnos, Kun, Revan, or the ancient Sith at absolute face value, no questions asked.
Or, failing that, I would appreciate an explanation as to why there should be a double standard.
