DE Sidious and DE Luke vs Sith Emperor and Darth Revan

While I in essence agree with what Borbarad is saying regarding the outdated nature of the source in question and its lack of compatability with material that is more recent, prevalent and of higher standing in canon, as well as how the source goes out of its way to present the aforementioned quote in a questionable manner using the "It is believed" qualifier, I think he may be missing the point with regards to some of the other points of discussion.

Of course a statement given in 1993 can only refer to information present at that very time, unless somebody wants to argue, that the person writing it down, was gifted with some nice forsight ability.

Or, and as it would seem is more likely upon further examination of the quote, the statement was made not with prior knowledge of then as of yet unknown material, but the prior assumption of what the then as of yet unknown material could potentially entail with possibly a later retroactive establishment of the character in light of more up to date information in mind.

"It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure."

If you look at the quote the intended perspective would almost surely be an in-universe one given that the qualifier "It is believed" wouldn't reasonably match the credibility of an LFL authorised writer, not only expected to possess a comprehensive understanding of canon but also granted the authority to establish canon, nor would it match the style of an out-of-universe narrative, speaking introspectively in the third person, not to mention the distinction between known and previously unknown powers which would more accurately reflect a fallible in-universe awareness; an in-universe perspective assumes a different level of knowledge to what would have been presented to an out-of-universe audience, and the implications behind the scale of the powers mentioned suggest a quantity beyond what had been established in canon up until that point in time. Moreover with regards to Palpatine devising new techniques at his pleasure, correct me if I'm wrong but at that particular point in time I don't believe we had been particularly well informed regarding anything specific that Palpatine had created, not to mention again the implications behiond the scale of his inventions; clearly the most realistic interpretation of the statement is that it assumes a level of information that hadn't outwardly been established as canon up until that point in time.

....he will find out that the quote is part of the game mechanics contained within the sourcebook. To be precise: The sole fuction of that quote is to given an explanation for Emperor Palpatine's "Alter Force" stat - which is explained here. As, in general, game mechanics are considered to be not canon, this quote can be ruled out right here already.

Given that the quote in question details information immaterial to the RPG system at play (the length of time of Palaptine's studies, his invention of new techniques), and where it does detail relevant information it leaves it largely undefined (mentioning that he has mastered nearly all these powers but not defining an exact quantity at which point you could act off of the information, casting doubt on the information by mentioning how it is simply believed to be the case), I find your interpretation of it as a detail regarding gameplay mechanics and not storyline dubious at best.

Regarding RPG sourcebooks, you have yet to definitively establish that they are marketed entirely towards people who plan to use it solely as part of the game, and you have yet to explain how a significant, prevalent interactive element to the sourcebook prevents it from establishing canon fact in areas where no interactive element is present, such as with the aforementioned quote.

Have you, perchance, read Path of Destruction, new member?

Of course. One of my favorite Star Wars books to this day. I have yet to read Revan, however.

Originally posted by Brako Cott
Of course. One of my favorite Star Wars books to this day. I have yet to read Revan, however.

You will be displeased. Karpyshyn's enormous deficits as a novelist are exposed for the world to see.

You will now articulate your general position on the matter of Emperor Palpatine's knowledge, since you have dared to defy the German killing machine known as Borbarad.

I hear many an essay can be found in these parts; mayhap I will be presented with the means to the location of one that I can use as a point of reference.

My initial thoughts are that his access to knowledge has been documented to greater heights than that of anybody else in Star Wars canon in both scale and variety, as have his inventions and experiments, and that with his scholarly disposition and prodigious intellect, he likely made very good use of the time he had with that base of knowledge in his learning of it. At the same time, I'm not sure how much of that knowledge in the ways of abilities he would use in a combat setting beyond the very basics that most have in their arsenal; he's certainly not shown to use anything particularly advanced or obscure in his few such encounters, that I'm aware of.

Originally posted by Brako Cott
I hear many an essay can be found in these parts; mayhap I will be presented with the means to the location of one that I can use as a point of reference.

Essay? I've heard rumors of a great Palpatine essay written by the greatest and most brilliant poster in the history of KMC.

Originally posted by Brako Cott
My initial thoughts are that his access to knowledge has been documented to greater heights than that of anybody else in Star Wars canon in both scale and variety, as have his inventions and experiments, and that with his scholarly disposition and prodigious intellect, he likely made very good use of the time he had with that base of knowledge in his learning of it. At the same time, I'm not sure how much of that knowledge in the ways of abilities he would use in a combat setting beyond the very basics that most have in their arsenal; he's certainly not shown to use anything particularly advanced or obscure in his few such encounters, that I'm aware of.

Your positions seem to have matured in these past few years. I would hear more of your views.

It’s 10:30pm and I’m bored, so I guess I’ll enter the fray myself, to match (and likely exceed) wits with these two towering intellectual titans—Borbarad and Brako Cott. I must preface this, however, with the obvious admission that I can’t speak for the absent RagingBoner; he and I exist as two separate entities, though I would be remiss if I failed to say that I sense in him a kindred spirit: he strikes me as a person with a remarkable affinity for correctly examining sources and with the ability to construct coherent, sensible, and undeniably persuasive arguments accordingly. He is missed.

The foremost charge Borbarad makes is a theme that underpins his entire, eloquent post: the need to apply context to quotes from canon sources; the importance of thinking about them rather than just accepting them at face-value. I would agree, except that I disagree that the quote concerning Palpatine’s mastery of the Force is somehow invalid.

Certainly not all quotes can be accepted as the gospel, incontrovertible truth. Within the respective sources, there are claims made by characters, either through speech or thought, which are not commensurate with actuality. As an example, Anakin Skywalker claims in Attack of the Clones that Obi-Wan Kenobi is “as wise as Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu”, though even the most liberal and generous assessment of Kenobi’s combat abilities would not likely yield such a conclusion, as Windu’s displayed powers and skills outstrip Kenobi’s by a considerable amount.

That said, I adamantly oppose the idea that canon quotes are to be disregarded solely because some believe that there is an expiration date to their validity. This isn’t milk, folks—though I would be hard pressed to deny the fact that there are moments where the reading or providing of a canon quote in one’s arguments is as wholesome and refreshing as a glass of milk before bed.

A case could be made that the quote is invalid because of chronological concerns if there is more recent material to contradict it. But if such material exists, it has not been presented here. Darth Sidious’s search for Force knowledge has been, as has already been said by my esteemed colleague and potential rival Mr. Cott, documented and detailed to be greater than any extant character. A spectrum of sources ranging from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia to The Essential Guide to the Force to The Dark Side Sourcebook to The New Essential Guide to Characters mention in passing or in detail that Palpatine thoroughly collected a vast wealth of Force knowledge and voraciously sought it. The resources with which he had to gather these sources is similarly unprecedented; in addition to being the single most powerful (militarily and politically) individual alive during his reign, he was free to scour the entire galaxy unabated and unchallenged—unlike, say, Vitiate, who was actively opposed by a faction with military and political might on par with his own empire, and threatened by the massed ranks of the Jedi order.

Contextually, we know that Palpatine is presented as the out-of-universe authority on the dark side. Critics often claim that this is solely because of his high-profile role in the mythos; but I can name at least one other Sith whose fame decidedly outstrips Palpatine’s own: Vader. And yet it is not Vader who is presented as the avatar of the dark side in The Jedi Path, nor The Book of Sith, nor even The Essential Guide to the Force—for some bizarre reason that clearly is not limited to out-of-universe fame, the authorities at Del Rey and LucasFilm selected Palpatine to give voice to the Sith perspective in essentially all of the major volumes related to the Force. If Borbarad exhorts us to consider out-of-universe chronological factors before assessing a canonical statement’s validity, then I urge him to consider that. Why Palpatine, if not other popular Sith Lords like Darth Revan, Darth Bane, or Exar Kun? Why Palpatine, if not Darth Vader himself?

Where we all three reach a consensus is the claim that the quote from The Dark Empire Sourcebook is not in and of itself a proper reason to accept Palpatine’s superiority in the realm of Force knowledge, if only because of the obvious qualifier: “It is believed.” This is the same reason why I am reluctant to accept the words of Darth Nyriss and her account of the Sith legend depicting Vitiate’s rise to power. However, it has been demanded of me by numerous parties to accept the legend because it has been asserted that (a.) at least one immediate fact (the void on Nathema) seems to support its validity; (b.) there is nothing that apparently contradicts it; (c.) the author is using the legend to communicate vital information to the audience (this particular charge, I gather, was used on the subject of Darth Nihilus’s power some time ago).

But could not the same thing be said here? I think so. All the immediate facts—the breadth of Palpatine’s knowledge base, his appetite for mastery—support this, as well as his out-of-universe position as the spokesman of the dark side; there is nothing that apparently contradicts the idea that Palpatine’s mastery was unparalleled; and the writer could be said to communicate vital information to the audience. As far as I know and as far as, at least, Wookieepedia’s page on the LucasFilm canon policy is concerned, information provided in the sourcebooks is perfectly canon (with the obvious exception of statistics).

I am not advocating blind acceptance of that particular quote; but I see nothing that invalidates it by virtue of chronology or context.

A case could be made that the quote is invalid because of chronological concerns if there is more recent material to contradict it. But if such material exists, it has not been presented here. Darth Sidious’s search for Force knowledge has been, as has already been said by my esteemed colleague and potential rival Mr. Cott, documented and detailed to be greater than any extant character. A spectrum of sources ranging from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia to The Essential Guide to the Force to The Dark Side Sourcebook to The New Essential Guide to Characters mention in passing or in detail that Palpatine thoroughly collected a vast wealth of Force knowledge and voraciously sought it. The resources with which he had to gather these sources is similarly unprecedented; in addition to being the single most powerful (militarily and politically) individual alive during his reign, he was free to scour the entire galaxy unabated and unchallenged—unlike, say, Vitiate, who was actively opposed by a faction with military and political might on par with his own empire, and threatened by the massed ranks of the Jedi order.

Contextually, we know that Palpatine is presented as the out-of-universe authority on the dark side. Critics often claim that this is solely because of his high-profile role in the mythos; but I can name at least one other Sith whose fame decidedly outstrips Palpatine’s own: Vader. And yet it is not Vader who is presented as the avatar of the dark side in The Jedi Path, nor The Book of Sith, nor even The Essential Guide to the Force—for some bizarre reason that clearly is not limited to out-of-universe fame, the authorities at Del Rey and LucasFilm selected Palpatine to give voice to the Sith perspective in essentially all of the major volumes related to the Force. If Borbarad exhorts us to consider out-of-universe chronological factors before assessing a canonical statement’s validity, then I urge him to consider that. Why Palpatine, if not other popular Sith Lords like Darth Revan, Darth Bane, or Exar Kun? Why Palpatine, if not Darth Vader himself

AHAHAHAHA I just read the next part about Nyriss, that I already addressed. I guess I shouldn't be reading and responding one paragraph at a time.

Dr McBeefington
Now wait just a cotton-pickin (lol black people) minute.

black ppl = lulz

Dr McBeefington
As to the first part of the bold, we would have to use the same standards to the "it is believed" line when regarding Darth Nyriss' story. There is no difference between "it is believed" and "if the legends are to be believed". Ergo, if we have no problem with Palpatine's statement, using this line of reasoning, we should also have no problem with not only Vitiate's legend (which you've somewhat accepted), and the specific details of that legend (which you haven't).

I've made my position clear on the validity of the legend and the validity of the claim from The Dark Empire Sourcebook regarding Palpatine's knowledge: they should both be accepted or both be rejected.

Dr McBeefington
As to the second bolded part, you must be confused. Palpatine had 20-40 years of free reign while Vitiate had 1,300 years. Vitiate wasn't actively opposed by anybody once he became Emperor. The first opposition came in the form of Revan, 1,300 years later. That's not a good point to base your argument on.

The opposition in question refers to the obstacles that opposed Vitiate's ability to scour the entire galaxy for Force knowledge, not impediments to his study.

Dr McBeefington
I'm not following. You're saying "more is better"? Palpatine was the original evil character created at the beginning of the SW saga. The EU didn't exist until 20+ years later. Using your logic, most EU materials don't mention Palpatine at all. What does that mean? Nothing at all.

No, I'm saying that Borbarad charges us with taking out-of-universe facts into consideration. I charge him to do the same with the fact that Palpatine, among all other Sith, is chosen to give voice to the dark side in compendiums like The Essential Guide to the Force and The Book of Sith.

The opposition in question refers to the obstacles that opposed Vitiate's ability to scour the entire galaxy for Force knowledge, not impediments to his study.

Dr McBeefington
Perhaps as far as jedi knowledge is concerned, you are right to some extent. Vitiate was unopposed to study the dark side seeing as how Malachor 2 and 5 existed, as well as Dromund Kaas, Korriban, and countless other sith planets that the Jedi didn't get around to. Vitiate had 1,300 years to map out the unknown regions (like the Voss). ALso remember that he had spies on the jedi council who he mind controlled. Or rather poured his essence into.

I'm not suggesting that Vitiate's astrographical resources were miniscule, I'm saying that they aren't on par with Palpatine's.

It's possible. Then again, we don't know how much of the Unknown Regions Vitiate conquered. He had 1,300 years to map it out and we don't know how large of an area the Unknown Regions constitute.

Dr McBeefington
It's possible.

I'm uncertain how even the most conservative examination of their respective territories could yield anything less than a "probable" in this capacity.

Dr McBeefington
Then again, we don't know how much of the Unknown Regions Vitiate conquered. He had 1,300 years to map it out and we don't know how large of an area the Unknown Regions constitute.

Palpatine's sanctioned forays are well documented. There wasn't a power in the galaxy capable of outright resisting Coruscant, so I'm not sure how he would have been limited with regards to the Unknown Regions either.

I'm not sure Palpatine's Empire was as well versed with the Unknown Region as Vitiate's. Actually, I'm positive that the disparity isn't even close, seeing as how Vitiate lived there for over a millennium.

Dr McBeefington
I'm not sure Palpatine's Empire was as well versed with the Unknown Region as Vitiate's. Actually, I'm positive that the disparity isn't even close, seeing as how Vitiate lived there for over a millennium.

Exploring, mapping, and subjugating the Unknown Regions was Grand Admiral Thrawn's primary directive from Palpatine during the Empire's reign, in order to increase Imperial territory and establish a bulwark against the invading Yuuzhan Vong.

But even if we set aside this and the complete speculation with comparing Vitiate's respective familiarity with Palpatine's in regards to the Unknown Regions, the fact remains that Palpatine had more access to the galaxy at large and, consequently, more access to the Force lore within, which is ultimately what this discussion has become concerned with.

I don't want to get sidetracked in a dick measuring contest between the breadth of their empires.

As an aside, where is the quote about Vitiate abandoning the rule of the empire to pursue his studies? Because according to the website, he only did this after the the Treaty of Coruscant.

This is from wiki but I remember it in one of the holorecordings of that Jedi Master historian dude. I'll find it in the morning.

In 4,904 BBY, after the Sith began to rebuild their society, the Sith Emperor revealed his vision of a restored empire. However, the Emperor's role was simply as the visionary: he withdrew into isolation and left the logistics to the newly-formed Dark Council.

Also, was re-reading Revan again and I found this part interesting.

There was something strange about the Emperor's voice. It didn't sound like the voice of a single being. It had an unusual echo and resonance, almost as if a great multitude were speaking his words in perfect symphony.

Speaking of Revan, I wrote a scathing review of it as the user Sable_Hart.

Aside from your gay username, it was quite good. Btw, it DOES appear that the Emperor singlehandedly defeated the dark council.

The files you showed me listed five current members of the Dark Council plotting against him. Are you saying the Emperor's Guard wiped out all five in the space of a single day?
I said he killed them all, Scourge replied. All 12 members of the Dark Council, even those who weren't part of the conspiracy.
How is that possible? Revan asked. He attacked a dozen of the most powerful sith lords in their seats of power simultaneously? How many troops does he have?
The Imperial Guard were only unleashed on Nyriss and two others. The Emperor must have assumed they were the ones least likely to answer his summons. The other nine were called together in the hours before the attack to meet with the Emperor at his citadel. None of them left alive.

I believe most, if not all, of my arguments were centered towards the idea that Vitiate potentially used a ritual that aided in his slaughter of the Council members.