Avengers vs. X-Men - 2012 Marvel Event

Originally posted by ODG
^ That is partially true. But Cyclops spent a lot of time training Hope to be able to handle the Phoenixforce. During that time, Hope declared that she was ready for it and that she wanted it to come. This happened several times. She declares this to Cyclops in Avengers Vs. X-Men #0. She declares in exasperation to Cyclops that she's ready and that she's trained her entire life in Avengers Vs. X-Men #1 again. She actually runs away from the Avengers trying to take her into custody in Avengers Vs. X-Men #2. She again declares she's ready to meet the Phoenix and actually convinces Wolverine in Avengers Vs. X-Men #4 to take her to the Moon to meet it.

True enough, Hope realized that she wasn't ready when the Phoenixforce was upon them. But at that point, Cyclops was busy trying to protect Hope from Wolverine friggin killing her.

So it isn't like the eeeevil Cyclops forced her to stand in front of the proverbial cannon while the goodie Avengers were trying to protect her from the bad man. Cyclops believed Hope to be ready in his heart -- and Hope's actions didn't exactly dissuade him, nor should they have. While it's very arguable she wasn't ready at that time on the Moon (something we'll never know for sure), Cyclops wasn't exactly manipulating her with heartless disregard for her own safety.

Cyclops actively and vigorously trained her to be ready body and soul. Which proved to be along the lines (if not completely the same thing) as what the Avengers eventually did with Iron Fist and Spidey. Cyclops protected Hope from other dangers, trying to keep her from missions and thwarting Wolverine's attempts to kill her. This, the Avengers also did. Cyclops eventually pinned all his hopes on Hope because he had faith in her and put her in the line of fire against the raw Phoenixforce. And, well... the Avengers basically did the exact same thing except now she had to deal with fighting Dark Phoenix Cyclops on top of dealing with the raw Phoenixforce when released.

And, you know, there's one more thing and it's probably the most important. When Hope talked to Phoenix Cyclops in Avengers Vs. X-Men #6, Hope said she would accept the Phoenixforce if he offered it. Cyclops refused to give it to her. While that rejection may be sourced in a selfish reticence to relinquish the power, it's also arguable that Cyclops realized she wasn't ready for it and so he and the others would carry the burden for her. So I don't think it's fair to suggest that Cyclops didn't care about Hope's choice and completely disregarded her safety.

From the beginning Cyclops has been waiting to use her to get what he wanted. Say what you will but Cyclops took a kid and trained her hard to do something and only do that. Of course as a kid she is going to be like yes I want to be a savior yes I'm ready, but as soon as she was confronted by it she was like no thank you.

As far as I know Cyclops never really asked Hope what she wanted, endangered the lives of Billions, and did it all without asking anyone else. He never asked Reed Richards, Tony stark, or anybody else for help in making this monumental decision for all of the Earth.

And I'm not saying either side was right or wrong. What I am saying is that Cyclops was pretty selfish during this whole thing, and that he got lucky during the ending.

I mean the Phoenix killed Billions and annihilated entire planets on it's way to Earth. The rest of the Phoenix 5 had started losing their minds. Let's not forget Magik was torturing heroes to keep them prisoner. Namor blitzed Wakanada likely killing some people, and Emma was one marble away from turning every human on Earth into a vegetable. I mean she did do it to some people.

Either one had the power to destroy Earth at a whim and in some cases they often let people know this, using it almost as a threat for people to do what they said.

Originally posted by Newjak
You know the main thing you're overlooking in all this is that he trained her.

From the beginning Cyclops has been waiting to use her to get what he wanted. Say what you will but Cyclops took a kid and trained her hard to do something and only do that. Of course as a kid she is going to be like yes I want to be a savior yes I'm ready, but as soon as she was confronted by it she was like no thank you.

And Hope is not a little wide-eyed kid. At all. You're forgetting that she's a hardened veteran that's lived her entire childhood surviving in harsh post-apocalyptic timelines alongside Cable as her mentor. Frankly, on her best days, she's ruthless and capable of impossibly comic book levels of badassery rivaling the Punisher.

Originally posted by Newjak
As far as I know Cyclops never really asked Hope what she wanted, endangered the lives of Billions, and did it all without asking anyone else. He never asked Reed Richards, Tony stark, or anybody else for help in making this monumental decision for all of the Earth.

And I'm not saying either side was right or wrong. What I am saying is that Cyclops was pretty selfish during this whole thing, and that he got lucky during the ending.

Both Cyclops and Hope came to realize, that Hope's destiny was the Phoenix. Cable confirmed that to Cyclops in X-Sanction. Hope, through various means, discovered that as well before Avengers Vs. X-Men ever started. Knowing this, she spent the entire first act of Avengers Vs. X-Men "not running from a fight. . . . [but] running towards one." Hope was running towards the Phoenix every bit as much as Cyclops was guiding her towards it. And, frankly, Hope was a lot more reckless about it up until the point where her resolve faltered on the Moon.

Originally posted by Newjak
I mean the Phoenix killed Billions and annihilated entire planets on it's way to Earth. The rest of the Phoenix 5 had started losing their minds. Let's not forget Magik was torturing heroes to keep them prisoner. Namor blitzed Wakanada likely killing some people, and Emma was one marble away from turning every human on Earth into a vegetable. I mean she did do it to some people.

Either one had the power to destroy Earth at a whim and in some cases they often let people know this, using it almost as a threat for people to do what they said.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Actually it looked to me that cyclops only trained her body wheras the avengers went for the whole mind/body/soul.

Also, Scott's training of Hope was literally mirrored by Kei Lung's training of Fong Ji. That was hardly unintentional on the writer's part. And Scott's training literally mirroring a kung fu master's training of a previous Iron Fist and Phoenixforce host supports that he wasn't purely concerned with her physical prowess.

Originally posted by ODG
I don't think I'm forgetting Cyclop's training. I relied on that very fact to support my arguments. Cyclops' vigorous training showed he cared about her welfare. If he didn't, he'd just lock her up in sedation until the Phoenixforce came.

And Hope is not a little wide-eyed kid. At all. You're forgetting that she's a hardened veteran that's lived her entire childhood surviving in harsh post-apocalyptic timelines alongside Cable as her mentor. Frankly, on her best days, she's ruthless and capable of impossibly comic book levels of badassery rivaling the Punisher. That's not true. Cyclops did ask what Hope wanted. Ever since her return in Second Coming, Cyclops was concerned with Hope's desires and respected them. And while Cyclops was an obstacle to some of Hope's desires, that's not because he was reckless and indifferent. It was the opposite. It was because he was overprotective. But Hope was her own woman. She literally declared that Cyclops not interfere with her and the Five Lights in Generation Hope while they stayed on Utopia and Cyclops accepted and abided by that. And once Hope realized her connection to the Phoenix, she spent half her time recklessly sneaking out in secret to continue a rather rash hero's journey, much to Scott's chagrin.

Both Cyclops and Hope came to realize, that Hope's destiny was the Phoenix. Cable confirmed that to Cyclops in X-Sanction. Hope, through various means, discovered that as well before Avengers Vs. X-Men ever started. Knowing this, she spent the entire first act of Avengers Vs. X-Men "not running from a fight. . . . [but] running [b]towards one." Hope was running towards the Phoenix every bit as much as Cyclops was guiding her towards it. And, frankly, Hope was a lot more reckless about it up until the point where her resolve faltered on the Moon. Phoenix was obviously corrupting the Phoenix Five. But we're talking about how Cyclops treated Hope. And even when corrupted, Phoenix Cyclops literally tried to keep the Phoenixforce away from Hope. Nobody's pretending that was solely motivated by altruism, but that fact is rather contrary to what you're accusing Scott of. Which is forcing the Phoenixforce upon Hope. [/B]

And the fact remains Scott still was willing to use her to get what he wanted, and didn't take anyone else into consideration at the potential cost of billions of lives on earth.

And we're talking about Cyclops. I made one simple gesture but the whole point is about cyclops and how he was 'lucky' he was right at the end, and how everyone defending him ignores the fact he obviously put tons of lives in danger with actual people dying from the P5 and the Phoenix itself in a huge numbers.

What a huge disappointment Scoot was in the end.

He showed next to no remorse at killing his father figure.
Just apathetically commented on how he would swap places if he could.
Cold.

Originally posted by Newjak
So you take a kid that has had a messed up childhood and tell her she is a messiah for mutantkind. Yeah that's really giving her a choice, most kids would jump at that chance.

Let's not make Hope into some delicate flower who was helpless. She was a soldier, a leader and a rebel.

Originally posted by Newjak
And the fact remains Scott still was willing to use her to get what he wanted, and didn't take anyone else into consideration at the potential cost of billions of lives on earth.

And we're talking about Cyclops. I made one simple gesture but the whole point is about cyclops and how he was 'lucky' he was right at the end, and how everyone defending him ignores the fact he obviously put tons of lives in danger with actual people dying from the P5 and the Phoenix itself in a huge numbers.

The danger he flirted with was real. But Cyclops didn't create the Phoenixforce or Hope. The Phoenixforce heading for Hope was happening whether he wanted it to happen or not. He did what he thought was best to prepare her once it was confirmed she was the Phoenix. And what he did, was basically what the Avengers ended up doing. Protecting her from outside forces/manipulation, training her vigorously, trying to keep the raw Phoenixforce away from her when it was evident she wasn't ready, and eventually pinning all hopes on her in a hail mary play. Except Scott never pitted her against a Dark Phoenix on top of having to deal with the Phoenixforce. The Avengers did that.

I had a similar discussion with srank on the Versus forum . IMO , its pretty obvious that this event is more of the Avengers' fault than the X-Men . If anything , the Avengers came out looking the bigger douchebags , and the true villains , despite the underdog wankery that Marvel put them through .

^ Scapegoating momentarily aside, I think a lot of us are forgetting just how absurdly retarded the Phoenixforce was. Assuming Stark's theories were correct, the Phoenixforce re-emerged to offset the Scarlet Witch's premature extinction of mutantkind on Earth. Seems like a rather philanthropic thing to do, yea?

So what does this wonderful cosmic force of rebirth and creation do? It travels in space, destroying billions of lives and planets on its journey, flying towards a unprepared host, and endangers the Earth's existence several times over. It literally was already self-sabotaging its vaunted purpose by possessing a host that was presumably incapable of handling it without further training. And saving a single species on a single planet isn't exactly balancing out the murder of billions of innocent lives and destruction of entire planets.

Even if you could somehow make the heartless argument, "Well... those civilizations and planets had it coming anyway," that doesn't exactly excuse it trying to possess an unfit host who probably would have destroyed the planet had she lost control. Y'know... the planet upon which that species you're trying to save lives on, ffs!

Anyway, back to the blame game.

^Well , if you recall , then Cyttorak called it a "force of destruction" as well , and that its goals "weren't mutually exclusive" with his own . In fact he even went so far as to hope that Colossus(and the rest of the P5) w/ the PF power would cause more destruction in the times to come .

I guess blowing up all those planets was it showcasing its destructive aspect . /shrug

Didn't Stark force the PF to possess them though? I wasn't paying attention...

Originally posted by SamZED
Didn't Stark force the PF to possess them though? I wasn't paying attention...

^ Well the argument is (and it's a fair one) that had he not inadvertently done that, the Phoenixforce would have possessed an unprepared Hope outright, which presumably would have had disastrous consequences not unlike what happened with Scott.

Also, Wolverine was supremely retarded. Had he succeeded in murdering Hope either of the two times he tried, Earth would have been completely f@cked.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Well the argument is (and it's a fair one) that had he not inadvertently done that, the Phoenixforce would have possessed an unprepared Hope outright, which presumably would have had disastrous consequences not unlike what happened with Scott.

Also, Wolverine was supremely retarded. Had he succeeded in murdering Hope either of the two times he tried, Earth would have been completely f@cked.

Wolverine was just overeager to engage in his roleplay fantasy of killing a Jean-esque redhead, with Hope being the redhead in question . He was also probably anxious to increase the mortality rate of women that are affiliated with him I guess .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Well , that may very well have happened , but I have to ask , what exactly was the value of the training that Kun Lun gave Hope ? I mean , in the purely physical sense , imo she was already probably very well trained , and in terms of her mental likeness ,she didn't seem much different after the training at all , what with her rebellious teen/insubordinate soldier demeanor remaining there instead of a mature personality one might have expected .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Wolverine was just overeager to engage in his roleplay fantasy of killing a Jean-esque redhead, with Hope being the redhead in question . He was also probably anxious to increase the mortality rate of women that are affiliated with him I guess .

Originally posted by ODG
Well, it may be hard to find value in her training from a subjective point of view. But playing devil's advocate, we should remember that a prior Iron Fist with similar training managed to tame the raw Phoenixforce in the past. So the value of Kun Lun training has precedent, objectively speaking.

What was even the best case scenario for Wolverine anyway? He murders Hope -- effectively eliminating her as a source of danger, true -- and crosses his fingers hoping the Phoenixforce will just go away and leave them alone? Cap was right in beating him up and kicking him off his plane. And Scott was right for blasting his face off several times.

Wolverine is a closet sadist(the opposite of Smart Alec Know it All , who's a masochist) .

Iron Fist pfft... I say it's all thanks to Spider-man's training.😎

^ Spider-Man did beat two of the Phoenix Five. (h5)

Yeah Spidey was the hero and professional of this arc.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Spider-Man did beat two of the Phoenix Five. (h5)

Originally posted by ODG
^ Spider-Man did beat two of the Phoenix Five. (h5)