Originally posted by Kazenji
Anyone seen that A + X book?.........its like the versus book how it had two stories
Seen the preview before. Looks awesome, Wolverine&Hulk vs. Maestro&DOFP Logan... gonna be interesting.
Originally posted by Kazenji
Anyone seen that A + X book?.........its like the versus book how it had two stories
Seen the preview before. Looks awesome, Wolverine&Hulk vs. Maestro&DOFP Logan... gonna be interesting.
Originally posted by Newjak
Except UNIT did interfere, and even if he hadn't the truth is they were still down a member cause one of them had died, Hope didn't have all of her friends. No one knew for sure if the 4 would have been enough.Scott is to blame though. He risked billions of lives on what amounts to a blind faith idea that Phoenix was gonna jump start Mutant kind again because the host could control it.
He is only considered right because what he wanted ended up happening.
Just because what you wanted to happen does doesn't mean you were right or justified in your actions.
I could go out and take all my money out of a bank and purchase lottery tickets with it all and leave myself broke on the hopes that I will strike it big. Regardless of whether I win or lose anybody at that point and time would say I was stupid for doing it, and they would be right. I could win and be a millionaire but that doesn't make me right it makes me extremely fortunate that happened to be the outcome I got.
That's what happened with Scott. He got extremely lucky during the whole thing. Hope wasn't ready and based on UNIT's testimony would have likely destroyed the Earth and everyone on it. So billions would have died had Scott been allowed to follow through with his plan unchecked.
Also his ultimate goal itself was lame to me. It wasn't like the previous mutants had been destroyed when they lost their powers. It didn't keep humans from giving birth it just kept them from giving birth to babies with powers. Those same children that would have been born mutants were still going to be born just without powers.
So essentially Scott wasn't fighting for the 'lives' of those people he was simply fighting for them to be born with mutant powers. For that he was willing to risk every single life on Earth to do it including the same people he was saying he was trying save.
Maybe you think he was simply trying to save humanity from itself by allowing evolution to continue but honestly that is also lame to me. Marvel Earth is home to brilliant minds that weren't born mutants, and there is ton of miracle tech on the planet.
Humanity would have kept evolving through the sheer fact they would have advanced genetic engineering to alter and make them stronger, faster, smarter. Cybernetic could also be used, as could suits. Either way humanity had the capabilities of evolving even if it wasn't through natural mutation.
Had it not turned out the way Scott wanted he would have totally been blamed for the loss of entire planet full of life.
The Cuckoos saw it happen almost instantly. Scott was correct. Mutants were reborn. And not just mutants but a beautiful (but violent) union between Scarlet Witch and Hope. Chaos and Order.
Fate is fate. And Scott was part of it. A necessary part of it and if he wasn't involved everything would've failed.
The Avengers wanted to rid Hope originally from the equation.
While Cyclops was right that the Phoenix could restore the mutant race, he was still playing russian roulette with Earth. Most evidence pointed to it wiping out the Earth (I mean, it flew around space destroying planets to get to Earth!) and if it wasn't for the Avengers training Hope to better control herself and Wanda being there, that's exactly what it would have done.
Things may have turned out alright for the most part but lets not pretend that everything wouldn't have gone to shit had Cyclops and the X-men been left to their own devices. The Avengers had every right to step in and it would have been just dumb if they didn't. And Captain America's plan to get Hope off planet does make logical sense, the Phoenix was coming after her. It would have made even more sense to talk it out and reach some sort of compromise but then there wouldn't be any event.
Ultimately, both sides were dealing with forces beyond their control.
Edit: Didn't the Phoenix destroy the Earth like three months ago? Tony Stark had to travel back in time to fix it or something. I didn't really read that mini, but anyways, with information like that, I'm surprised they didn't just nuke Utopia.
Originally posted by Newjak
Also all instead of dogs having a chance of giving birth to a bear they instead now only give birth to dogs..
The first argument is pretty much analogic than simply sterilizing bears, or running it through closer species, to have an hybrid that can only produce outspring from it's race by mating among themselves, but to breed with "pure races" effectively produces such pure race. It is close to be sterilized and still leads to extinction.
Keep in mind that mutants were forced into that situation by external means, so it can be seen as massively sterilizing a race and then claim that the natural conclusion of such situation is entirely acceptable for such race. It is not a perfect analogy, but to present the mutant extinction as something entirely acceptable is as arbirtrary as choosing which races should survive at random.
Originally posted by Newjak
Also the dogs have the technology to turn themselves into bears regardless of whether or not it's natural.
Except they cannot turn themselves into mutants, they can gain powers but they cannot spawn mutant children, not even using Celestial technology. Superheroes aren't mutants in the sense that their powers aren't necessarily passed into their children, and that superheroes aren't birthed with powers.
Again, if you see mutations from an entirely utilitarian point of view, sure, they can be replaced: that's what evolution does anyways, replace certain biotechnologies with others because there is a niche to be filled. But again, the arbitrary extinction of races is not justified by utilitarism, there is an external moral choice about erasing lifeforms altogether and then claiming "hey, we can clone them later".
You see when most people think extinction of species they think lose of life. As in if all the bears were extinct that means they were all killed off.
Originally posted by Newjak
What happened with mutants was that the ones that were alive simply lost their powers, while the ones that were gonna be born were still gonna be born just without them..
They were bears that were born as dogs instead, and mutanthood was going to disappear entirely from the ecosystem by artificial means. It's sensibly close to eugenics, and the morality of it is not directly related with simple "loss of life".
Originally posted by Newjak
Maybe what Scott did would have been justifiable had there been no chance of harm coming to billions of people but there was an extreme chance, in hindsight Scott's plan would have failed if had been unchecked by the Avengers, that billions could have lost their lives. In fact regardless of this lives were lost because of it.
Of course, the risk of blowing up the planet was a huge deal, but if you take Cyclops away from the picture the danger still remains, take Hope to another planet when she faces the Phoenix Force and she's still going to go batsh_t crazy, and keep enough of a conscience to go back to Earth and destroy it, without Scott the Earth dies anyways, the Avengers were trying in vain to send a problem away just like the Illuminati did against Hulk when they sent him into space. It was a false answer to the Phoenix, the only real answer was Hope: the one that Cyclops intended to use from the beginning.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Things may have turned out alright for the most part but lets not pretend that everything wouldn't have gone to shit had Cyclops and the X-men been left to their own devices. The Avengers had every right to step in and it would have been just dumb if they didn't. And Captain America's plan to get Hope off planet does make logical sense, the Phoenix was coming after her. It would have made even more sense to talk it out and reach some sort of compromise but then there wouldn't be any event.
The problem of every plan the Avengers conceived is that it was going to fail, sending a cosmic entity with such a strong relationship with Earth was the equivalent of throwing an atomic bomb into a pond and hoping the explosion doesn't blow you up.
Both plans were going to fail ultimately, but by dismissing Cyke's plan entirely, and taking Hope with them by force randomly didn't really help the matters, the Avengers took many rash decisions that developped into further problems, but they stalled the Phoenix Force enough for Hope to raise up to the challenge. The Avengers were playing russian roulette hard themselves...
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
While Cyclops was right that the Phoenix could restore the mutant race, he was still playing russian roulette with Earth. Most evidence pointed to it wiping out the Earth (I mean, it flew around space destroying planets to get to Earth!) and if it wasn't for the Avengers training Hope to better control herself and Wanda being there, that's exactly what it would have done.Things may have turned out alright for the most part but lets not pretend that everything wouldn't have gone to shit had Cyclops and the X-men been left to their own devices. The Avengers had every right to step in and it would have been just dumb if they didn't. And Captain America's plan to get Hope off planet does make logical sense, the Phoenix was coming after her. It would have made even more sense to talk it out and reach some sort of compromise but then there wouldn't be any event.
Ultimately, both sides were dealing with forces beyond their control.
Edit: Didn't the Phoenix destroy the Earth like three months ago? Tony Stark had to travel back in time to fix it or something. I didn't really read that mini, but anyways, with information like that, I'm surprised they didn't just nuke Utopia.
👆
Originally posted by BentleyMost of this can be answered in that none of the mutants were sterilized, and I'm not talking about whether or not mutants should have been gone, I'm talking about the reality of the situation Cyclops was doing his thing in. Which he was willing to sacrifice billions of lives simply so that people could be born mutants. He wasn't saving lives and yes it that simple.
The first argument is pretty much analogic than simply sterilizing bears, or running it through closer species, to have an hybrid that can only produce outspring from it's race by mating among themselves, but to breed with "pure races" effectively produces such pure race. It is close to be sterilized and still leads to extinction.Keep in mind that mutants were forced into that situation by external means, so it can be seen as massively sterilizing a race and then claim that the natural conclusion of such situation is entirely acceptable for such race. It is not a perfect analogy, but to present the mutant extinction as something entirely acceptable is as arbirtrary as choosing which races should survive at random.
Except they cannot turn themselves into mutants, they can gain powers but they cannot spawn mutant children, not even using Celestial technology. Superheroes aren't mutants in the sense that their powers aren't necessarily passed into their children, and that superheroes aren't birthed with powers.
Again, if you see mutations from an entirely utilitarian point of view, sure, they can be replaced: that's what evolution does anyways, replace certain biotechnologies with others because there is a niche to be filled. But again, the arbitrary extinction of races is not justified by utilitarism, there is an external moral choice about erasing lifeforms altogether and then claiming "hey, we can clone them later".
You see when most people think extinction of species they think lose of life. As in if all the bears were extinct that means they were all killed off.
They were bears that were born as dogs instead, and mutanthood was going to disappear entirely from the ecosystem by artificial means. It's sensibly close to eugenics, and the morality of it is not directly related with simple "loss of life".
Of course, the risk of blowing up the planet was a huge deal, but if you take Cyclops away from the picture the danger still remains, take Hope to another planet when she faces the Phoenix Force and she's still going to go batsh_t crazy, and keep enough of a conscience to go back to Earth and destroy it, without Scott the Earth dies anyways, the Avengers were trying in vain to send a problem away just like the Illuminati did against Hulk when they sent him into space. It was a false answer to the Phoenix, the only real answer was Hope: the one that Cyclops intended to use from the beginning.
And I'll create a better analogy for you.
Let's say tomorrow you woke up and everyone in the world was turned black. There are only a few hundred Asians left.
Those Asians can still breed with other people they can still have kids. The only thing is they will always come out black.
No one died from this. It sucks that the Asians are the only ones left of their 'race' but no one is hurt, no is going to die from it, everyone that was Asian, is still Asian, or was gonna be born Asian is still going to live a normal life.
Now let's assume one of the Asians hears about a possible way to reverse the effect so other Asians can once again be born, and every Asian that turned black will return to being Asian, but there is a possibility, one that is likely, it could destroy the entire planet and everyone on it. They don't care though all they want is for Asians to be able to be born again.
Would you defend that person and say they are right for taking such a chance with everyone's lives when the only gain is that people who were going to be born Asian are born Asian instead of black?
And yes human genetics on Marvel could replicate mutant powers and be passed on to their children. Half of Marvel Earth gained their powers in freak accidents anyways involving science.
Originally posted by BentleyExcept the Avengers are the only reason Cyclops' 'plan' didn't kill everyone anyways.
The problem of every plan the Avengers conceived is that it was going to fail, sending a cosmic entity with such a strong relationship with Earth was the equivalent of throwing an atomic bomb into a pond and hoping the explosion doesn't blow you up.Both plans were going to fail ultimately, but by dismissing Cyke's plan entirely, and taking Hope with them by force randomly didn't really help the matters, the Avengers took many rash decisions that developped into further problems, but they stalled the Phoenix Force enough for Hope to raise up to the challenge. The Avengers were playing russian roulette hard themselves...
Originally posted by Bentley
The problem of every plan the Avengers conceived is that it was going to fail, sending a cosmic entity with such a strong relationship with Earth was the equivalent of throwing an atomic bomb into a pond and hoping the explosion doesn't blow you up.Both plans were going to fail ultimately, but by dismissing Cyke's plan entirely, and taking Hope with them by force randomly didn't really help the matters, the Avengers took many rash decisions that developped into further problems, but they stalled the Phoenix Force enough for Hope to raise up to the challenge. The Avengers were playing russian roulette hard themselves...
The Avengers initial plan was to take Hope off planet and draw the Phoenix away from Earth. That sounds pretty reasonable based on the information they had and it's a heck of a lot better and productive than Cyclops welcoming the Phoenix with open arms because he has 'faith'.
Cyclops plan was definitely going to fail, taking Hope away from Earth might not have ended well either but at least the planet wouldn't end up destroyed. Let her go Dark Phoenix in some empty part of space or something.
It was the plans, training, and sacrifices of the Avengers that delayed the Phoenix from inhabiting Hope (Thereby destroying Earth) and later preparing Hope enough so that she could destroy the Phoenix as it was too dangerous.
As far as I'm concerned, Cyclops and his X-men were being no better than an irrational cult during this event. To make matters worse, all of them went bat shit insane when possessed by the Phoenix Force and killed millions. If that doesn't point out how stupid their plan was in hindsight, I don't know what will.
The one thing I disagree with is Cyclops being locked up while Wanda is walking free but the X-men lost and would have surely destroyed the world if left to their own devices. They now have to face the consequences that come with losing a war.
The thing that pisses me off the most about this event was that the mutant community/X-Men tried to shit all over Cap for "not doing enough" for the mutants.
The hell?
Cap welcomed, with open arms, the children of the world's most infamous terrorist into the Avengers in spite of everyone else flipping shit and thinking he went nuts. And though it took some time, Pietro and Wanda went on to be maintains of the Avengers. That's without including Beast, Wolverine, and later on, Storm.
Half the time, books make the X-Men seem so jaded and butthurt about the Avengers it gets really annoying and pathetic.
I don't agree with the idea that the X-Men lost this war at all . Both sides ultimately got what they wanted, with the X-Men getting the re-ignition of the mutant race, and the Avengers saving the world(as always) .
And as far as Scott, PF, Hope, Cap, Tony,Wanda, Wolverine and all the others concerned, this point has been thoroughly discussed already a few pages back .
At this point, discussing which side was in the wrong, or who has the right to namecall the other or who gets the right to be butthurt is just as pointless as stuffing an elephant in a car . An endeavor I am no longer willing to undertake .
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The Avengers initial plan was to take Hope off planet and draw the Phoenix away from Earth. That sounds pretty reasonable based on the information they had and it's a heck of a lot better and productive than Cyclops welcoming the Phoenix with open arms because he has 'faith'.Cyclops plan was definitely going to fail, taking Hope away from Earth might not have ended well either but at least the planet wouldn't end up destroyed. Let her go Dark Phoenix in some empty part of space or something.
The planet would've ended up destroyed if the Avengers took Hope away, luckily for both teams who had crappy plans to deal with the PF -understandable considering the Force was pretty impossible to predict either way-, the circumstances ended up playing to their benefit. Weirdly enough, it was almost exactly the Avengers enacting what Cyclops intended in the first place. That's pretty much what there is to be told, impossible odds for a conventional plan to work, but Hope pulled her "Mutant Messiah" thing, which actually kind of justifies the faith that you're bashing.
But most of all, this event was utter crap.
Originally posted by Newjak
Most of this can be answered in that none of the mutants were sterilized, and I'm not talking about whether or not mutants should have been gone, I'm talking about the reality of the situation Cyclops was doing his thing in. Which he was willing to sacrifice billions of lives simply so that people could be born mutants. He wasn't saving lives and yes it that simple.
I'm not exactly sure how the Black/Asian analogy amounts to mutanthood, which is not a single genetic trait, but a bunch of unseemingly transformation that change the human race into a collection of demigods which abilities more unlikely than the other. Would it be a tragedy to lose the mutant potential just because you seem to think it can be replicated "sometime down the road"? I can understand how Cyclops sees the loss of mutanthood as a tragedy, but not at a single point I have justified his argument of killing millions being worth it. It was never a matter of that anyways, the Phoenix was going to erase all humanity and more than millions and the genetic trait that you seem to dismiss so readily, saved humanity.
And this is the Marvel Universe, give it a month or two and the new Mutants will save many more millions than those Cyclops assumedly risked.
Straying from the in-universe discussion, I do think that erasing races for free is a tragedy. I can see how this can be easily dismissed by some rationalization, but I just don't think how the statement "it's not a big deal" justifies thinning an ecosystem. Bears and Dogs are functionally different in the same system, the same with mutants and humans, your argument about black people and asian is a false generalization, because these genetic variations do exactly the same thing in their respective habitats.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The Avengers initial plan was to take Hope off planet and draw the Phoenix away from Earth. That sounds pretty reasonable based on the information they had and it's a heck of a lot better and productive than Cyclops welcoming the Phoenix with open arms because he has 'faith'.
* isn't "faith" was also Tony Stark's last ditch effort in the final issues?
Originally posted by Bentley
Weirdly enough, it was almost exactly the Avengers enacting what Cyclops intended in the first place. That's pretty much what there is to be told, impossible odds for a conventional plan to work, but Hope pulled her "Mutant Messiah" thing, which actually kind of justifies the faith that you're bashing.
* ^ this... in the end, they did what Cyclops' plan in the first place, and it's basically a slap to their (Cap's & Avengers'😉 faces, but the writers somehow never realized that...
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
^So, how good is Consequences? Just wanna make sure that I get my money's worth when I order the comic next week.PS: While the new baby-Avengers/X-Men avy/sig is funny as hell, your Leonardo/SHIELD avy/sig looked way cooler imo.
Consequences is up and down, for me. The first two were kind of meh, but 3 was better i thought.