Phoenix vs Onslaught

Originally posted by Mr Master
Onslaught ftw.

The Force betting blown into billions of pieces isn't a fluke or pis.
It happened again when the Shiar ripped it back to reality by force
and consequently shattered it again.

An Alien Ship impaled the Force, drained it and nearly killed it.

6 heroes (5 from the Ultraverse and Rogue) battered and tired,
stalemated and then drove back the Force into a portal displacing it across space-time.

btw. This isn't an avatar we're talking about, this is the actual Phoenix Force.

I love how you throw in that last line about it not being an avatar to cover yourself when thats exactly what it was in all of those situations.

As stated on panel the Phoenix Force and all it is is summed up not only within reality but outside of it to.

The firebird is not the full Phoenix Force but a representation of it within reality. It is stated in numerous comics, on numerous separate occasions to be merely an avatar of the Force.

I have shown many scans stating this point specifically however you ignore them, wait for me to go away for a little while and then reiterate the same rubbish because you are not seeking the truth here, merely trying to get as many people as possible to subscribe to your Marvel fantasies.

The Phoenix Firebird as shown on panel and as stated there and in the handbook is mutable, totally indestructible life force. It can be shattered, absorbed and utilized and still be unharmed. Energy cant be destroyed only transferred from state to state.

In the Ultraforce crossover series you mention and even in 616 there have been multiple Phoenix firebirds in operation at once. The blue Phoenix avatars wielded by Rachel and Korvus, the Phoenix shards wielded by the Cuckoos in Warsong. All in the same timeframe.

The firebird is a representation, there can be many at a time and have been, it is not the full force 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
Also,
Jean never held any Timeline in her hands,
that was Sublime's atoms she was controlling,
not the visualization of reality 15104 in her hands.
She did however alter that HCT-Reality by time traveling to the past,
and changing Scotts's mind about staying with the X-Men.
This in-turn assured Sublime would never rise in this possible alternate future.

Anyway, Jean amputated the future of reality 15104
by removing Sublime's atoms from reality and transferring said atoms into the WHR.

"telekinetic control of all those atoms isn't as easy as it sounds, even for a WPotC"

Scott created Reality 15104 (HCT) via a decision. (leaving the X-Men)
Scott altered Reality 15104 when he changed his mind (via Jean mind rape)

Complete rubbish and you know it.

Jean removed Sublime from reality and this bacterial infection was taken from from her by a mysterious black claw.

Jean stated on panel that she amputated HCT from reality and the point is confirmed in the m'kraan crystal handbook entry which remarks on how she severed it from the multiverse.

Jean was then directed to treat the wounded 616 (wounded from having HCT severed from it) universe, she materialized this in the white room as shown artistically and whilst it was being materialized the consciousness remarks on how control of all of those atoms is not easy even for a white phoenix.

Gazing into the universe to examine it she hears references to past events and she is told that she must sever ties with the universe by watering it with her hears blood. Basically giving up Scott, letting him go to Emma.

At this point she changes Scotts reaction to Emma and makes him stay with her, thereby preventing the event which triggered Here Comes Tomorrow in the 1st place 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean was then directed to treat the wounded 616 (wounded from having HCT severed from it) universe, she materialized this in the white room as shown artistically and whilst it was being materialized the consciousness remarks on how control of all of those atoms is not easy even for a white phoenix.

You've obfuscated the order of the statements and what actions they are obviously being ascribed to.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Gazing into the universe to examine it she hears references to past events and she is told that she must sever ties with the universe by watering it with her hears blood. Basically giving up Scott, letting him go to Emma.

At this point she changes Scotts reaction to Emma and makes him stay with her, thereby preventing the event which triggered Here Comes Tomorrow in the 1st place 🙂

1) Jean pulls Sublime out of Beast with her telekinesis.
2) Jean asks, "Surgery complete?"
3) Jean travels to the White Hot Room. The Phoenix Force tells her that the "disinfection is complete," and she hands Sublime over to it to seal his influence away.
4) The other Phoenixes gather around her and tell her, "Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training, not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown." PAST TENSE.

5) THEN the universe begins to manifest itself in her hands.
5a) She asks what's in her hands.
5b) The Phoenix Force and the Phoenixes let her know what it is.
6) She realizes she needs to nudge Scott in order for such a future to not repeat itself in Earth-616 and the phoenix manifests itself on top of the universe in her hands. Which is all symbolic.

Because if what's going on in her hands isn't simply symbolic and a visualization, and that actually was the universe, then it was seriously getting messed up when a Phoenix flared up in it:

Obviously the universe wasn't getting messed up. Ergo, what's going on in her hands is a symbolic visualization -- it demonstrates the gravity of her actions, that her nudging Scott will heal that timeline by preventing the dystopic future -- it's not a feat of telekinesis. Her feat of actual telekinesis was extracting Sublime from Beast. Less monumental feat for her, for sure. But the desire for her to have a bigger feat does not justify your interpretation.

happy holidays odg 🙂

how high on the cosmic hierarchy do u place the phoenix force

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
She manifested a visualization of a universe in her hands and the phoenix flaring within that visualization was also a visualization. We know a universe-sized phoenix didn't flare up and muck up that universe. And nobody should seriously consider accepting that one was a visualization while the other isn't... just because.

And the "telekinetic control of all those atoms" is a reference to the atoms that made up Sublime. Not the universe's atoms.

Nobody cares about handbooks anymore, particularly when secondary sources conflict with each other, as they do in this instance and many others. No kidding.

Have you actually read the issue?

If you have it couldnt have been anything more than a superficial look.

Allow me to invite you to take a more comprehensive look so that you may understand it better.

Sublime is disinfected from reality and Jean hold the bacterial colony in her hand the GREEN mass:

Holding Sublime the GREEN mass she declares that she had to amputate the HCT reality and at this point the reality disappears and she is beyond reality. Looking at Sublime who she refers to as a rogue bacterial colony Jean asks if Sublime is what is in store for reality, the inevitable future "Is this the future?" The Consciousness tells her no and that Sublime only came to power like that because Jean messed up in her Phoenix work. She became too emotionally engaged. Jean despairs and says that her friends dont deserve a future like that. The Consciousness tells her its not the end yet and to turn around and look at the m'kraan crystal where she needs to heal the "patient". [B] Notice that a black claw like appendage grasps the Sublime infection and carries it off in the opposite direction"

In the crystal where she was directed to heal this yet unrevealed patient she is told that telekinetic control of all of these atoms is not easy even for a white phoenix and with these words she manifests in her hands what the consciousness tells us is the universe-

A universe that we're shown is 616-

"Every diamond has its flaw"

"Gus was a good dog"

"Are these words from the future"

Jean is told that to heal the universe she wounded ( by messing up her Phoenix work, necessitating her to remove sublime and amputate the infected future) she must let go of scott, give him to Emma so they can forge a new future. "water it with your hearts blood" she then urges scott to stay with emma, changing the reaction that caused HCT.

Your mistake is in thinking they were visualizations instead of both literally being what theyre stated to be and artistically depicted to be.

The atoms arent Sublime, he was carried away much earlier on panel.

On the the previous panel Jean showed precedence for being able to perform enormous telekinetic feats on a universal scale by amputating HCt from reality.

So her materializing 616 so she could examine and heal it is completely feasible.

None the less its depicted artistically and supported by a handbook interpretation. Your interpretation that its sublime is conclusively contradicted on panel.

And the Phoenix affect flaring up on the universe is an artistic depiction of her applying her Phoenix power to reality. The Phoenix power doesnt always burn or harm, its mutable, can be any energy.

It can flare up and cause no harm-

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Your argument is dust.

Be objective.

Wait a minute. Didn't Onslaught and Phoenix already meet and the battle didn't turn out to favor Phoenix at all?

Originally posted by carver9
Wait a minute. Didn't Onslaught and Phoenix already meet and the battle didn't turn out to favor Phoenix at all?

Nah. Onslaught and Jean Grey fought at a time when she was not in possession of the Phoenix Force. Onslaught visualized the Phoenix Force claiming he could give her back that level of power if she works with him and she attacked him with that visualization and Onslaught just stomped her 😂

What I've learnt from the last few stories about the Phoenix Force is it winning depends entirely on the motivation of others.

For example, the Xorn thing. It's silly to keep bringing that up as an argument. It's flat out stated in Morrisons run that the Phoenix Force wanted Jean Grey to move onto another plane of existence to carry out Phoenix Work so that's why she had to die. The PF allowed Xorn to shatter it. The Shi'iar used a weapon to rebuild and shatter it again when it was still "incubating".

Also if you look at Uncanny X-Force the Phoenix Force turned on it's host because Apocangel was doing exactly what it wanted it to do.

The Phoenix is more powerful then Onslaught it'll kill him unless he's trying to restart life or something along those lines.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Uh no. the consciousness' remarks are clearly referring to something she had already accomplished. Her telekinetic extraction of Sublime, which itself was referred to as the "surgery" and "disinfection." After praising her and comforting her about that feat, something starts manifesting itself in her hands. Why is he speaking in the past tense to something that hasn't occurred yet? She doesn't even know what's in her hands until they tell her. If she was telekinetically summoning all the atoms of the universe, how'd she not know what was materializing in her hands?

You've obfuscated the order of the statements and what actions they are obviously being ascribed to. Once again:

1) Jean pulls Sublime out of Beast with her telekinesis.
2) Jean asks, "Surgery complete?"
3) Jean travels to the White Hot Room. The Phoenix Force tells her that the "disinfection is complete," and she hands Sublime over to it to seal his influence away.
4) The other Phoenixes gather around her and tell her, "Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds in training, not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown." PAST TENSE.

5) THEN the universe begins to manifest itself in her hands.
5a) She asks what's in her hands.
5b) The Phoenix Force and the Phoenixes let her know what it is.
6) She realizes she needs to nudge Scott in order for such a
future to not repeat itself in Earth-616 and the phoenix manifests
itself on top of the universe in her hands. Which is all symbolic.

Because if what's going on in her hands isn't simply symbolic and a
visualization, and that actually was the universe, then it was
seriously getting messed up when a Phoenix flared up in it:

Obviously the universe wasn't getting messed up. Ergo, what's
going on in her hands is a symbolic visualization -- it demonstrates
the gravity of her actions, that her nudging Scott will heal that
timeline by preventing the dystopic future -- it's not a feat of
telekinesis.

Her feat of actual telekinesis was extracting Sublime from Beast.
Less monumental feat for her, for sure.

But the desire for her to have a bigger feat does not justify your interpretation.

This is exactly right.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
What I've learnt from the last few stories about the Phoenix Force is it winning depends entirely on the motivation of others.

For example, the Xorn thing. It's silly to keep bringing that up as an argument. It's flat out stated in Morrisons run that the Phoenix Force wanted Jean Grey to move onto another plane of existence to carry out Phoenix Work so that's why she had to die. The PF allowed Xorn to shatter it. The Shi'iar used a weapon to rebuild and shatter it again when it was still "incubating".

Also if you look at Uncanny X-Force the Phoenix Force turned on it's host because Apocangel was doing exactly what it wanted it to do.

The Phoenix is more powerful then Onslaught it'll kill him unless he's trying to restart life or something along those lines.

nice. 👆

and gs--the hell is up my brutha?? 😄

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Uh no. the consciousness' remarks are clearly referring to something she had already accomplished. Her telekinetic extraction of Sublime, which itself was referred to as the "surgery" and "disinfection." After praising her and comforting her about that feat, something starts manifesting itself in her hands. Why is he speaking in the past tense to something that hasn't occurred yet? She doesn't even know what's in her hands until they tell her. If she was telekinetically summoning all the atoms of the universe, how'd she not know what was materializing in her hands?

You've obfuscated the order of the statements and what actions they are obviously being ascribed to.

When Phoenixes exert power to a great enough extent, they are taken over by the Consciousness who takes the reins whilst the host plays audience. This was stated by Jean in New X-men a few issues before and i will gladly show the scan once i obtain it 🙂

In the very sentence you refer to the consciousness remarks about how the task isnt as easy as it sounds in training Suggesting all of the Phoenixes in the Corps are trained in and prepared in the use of their telekinesis for such Phoenix work which explains the tense. With the Forces guidance the universe is manifested and manipulated within Jeans hands following the Forces warning that manipulation of all of those atoms is not as easy as it sounds in training.

Your sublime theory is out of the window because not only was the comment a warning as opposed to an appraisal, but sublime was dealt with a page before and taken away

Originally posted by Mr Master
👆

This is exactly right.

Translation: GS is stomping my ass, help!!! fear 😂

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
What I've learnt from the last few stories about the Phoenix Force is it winning depends entirely on the motivation of others.

For example, the Xorn thing. It's silly to keep bringing that up as an argument. It's flat out stated in Morrisons run that the Phoenix Force wanted Jean Grey to move onto another plane of existence to carry out Phoenix Work so that's why she had to die. The PF allowed Xorn to shatter it. The Shi'iar used a weapon to rebuild and shatter it again when it was still "incubating".

Also if you look at Uncanny X-Force the Phoenix Force turned on it's host because Apocangel was doing exactly what it wanted it to do.

The Phoenix is more powerful then Onslaught it'll kill him unless he's trying to restart life or something along those lines.

QFT

Originally posted by leonidas
nice. 👆

and gs--the hell is up my brutha?? 😄

Yooo. Wassuuup homie 😱

Long time. Hows things? I havent been around for like 9 months.

Im only back cos there are strong hints that Wandas House of M power up was from her tapping into the Phoenix Force. If that turns out to be true i'll stick around for a few months troll and then leave again 😂

So just to reiterate:

1)Jean telekinetically extracts Sublime from reality but reality was so badly infected she had to amputate the HCt future.
2)Jean shifts to beyond reality and talks with the Force about how she messed up causing this disaster but her friends dont deserve Sublime as a future, Sublime is taken away by a black bird like appendage and Jean is told its not over go to the White Hot Room within the Mkraan crystal to heal the patient
3) The Phoenix Corps is revealed and the Consciousness reveals that Phoenixes go through training in the use of their telekinesis. Through the Force the wounded 616 universe is materialized and Jean controls the atoms in her hand and examines it
4) She is told by the Consciousness and other avatars that to heal the wound she caused by the amputation she must sever her emotional ties and alter Scotts negative reaction to Emma (caused by Jeans death) which lead to HCT. She does this leading to the HCT outcome being avoided and instead we get what we're reading about in Marvel comics now 😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yooo. Wassuuup homie 😱

Long time. Hows things? I havent been around for like 9 months.

i know, it's been wayyyy too long! RL's been a ******* bi*** lately, but getting by. how bout you? school still? done? working? can't even remember WHERE you were last we talked, damn....

Im only back cos there are strong hints that Wandas House of M power up was from her tapping into the Phoenix Force.

god help us all if that is true.... 😆

If that turns out to be true i'll stick around for a few months troll and then leave again 😂

HA! nice. at least you're honest. no hidden agenda here. 😂

for those who want to know more about mbodies than anyone needs to, check out THIS classic.....

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t431793.html

i've forgotten how entertaining the endless parades of scans and recursively repudiated logic are

its kmc

happy holidays my friend

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
i've forgotten how entertaining the endless parades of scans and recursively repudiated logic are

that thread i linked to was unreal. 😂 no way in hell i'd go to that extent in a debate now-a-days...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
When Phoenixes exert power to a great enough extent, they are taken over by the Consciousness who takes the reins whilst the host plays audience. This was stated by Jean in New X-men a few issues before and i will gladly show the scan once i obtain it

In the very sentence you refer to the consciousness remarks about how the task isnt as easy as it sounds in [B]training Suggesting all of the Phoenixes in the Corps are trained in and prepared in the use of their telekinesis for such Phoenix work which explains the tense. With the Forces guidance the universe is manifested and manipulated within Jeans hands following the Forces warning that manipulation of all of those atoms is not as easy as it sounds in training. [/b]

That's fine. And the only clear telekinetic feat at an atomic level that occurred was extracting Sublime completely from Beast.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your sublime theory is out of the window because not only was the comment a warning as opposed to an appraisal, but sublime was dealt with a page before and taken away

Switch the order: Eli's brother, Peyton, comments to Eli, "Passing for all those yards in a single game isn't as easy as it sounds in training not even for a Manning." Manning goes on to pass for 400 yards in a game (and then does it -- without even knowing what he's doing). Peyton had no context for making that comment unsolicited before the feat actually occurred.

The latter is your interpretation and the English language does not lend itself to that. Grant Morrison's writing may be dense and layered, but he isn't daft. It's past tense. Clearly. And she just accomplished a telekinetic feat at the atomic level by extracting Sublime. Furthermore, we know bottom-line that half of what appears in her hands is a symbolic visualization. There is every reason to believe that the rest of it is also a symbolic visualization (unless you want PotWC to have a completely needless feat). These are just the two most glaring reasons why your interpretation is incorrect.

You're never going to get over that. And it isn't necessary to rehash the several other additional reasons that make it clear your interpretation is incorrect.