Do we really have to discuss the HCT feat to death to say the Phoenix wins in this thread? It has other feats that I believe are better then anything Onslaught displayed.
For the record, I agree with OneDumbG0 in regards to the interpretation of that HCT feat. At the time I believe that is the correct intepretation. It makes more sense. However, I have no idea what's Marvel opinion on this at the moment. There's a site where the Handbook writers hang out at...can't remember the name but Chris Claremont has a thread there. Anyway in this site you can harass the writers of the Handbooks enough to change stuff in it for them for example intelligence of characters and strength etc...IRRC this is where that telekinetic atoms universe thing comes from.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the Phoenix Force is going to wreck a crap of load of people in AvX anyway. I still think it's greater then Onslaught. Additionally there's a very high probability that the Life Force is going to turn out to be the Phoenix Force and that is what Wanda's connection with Hope is.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Do we really have to discuss the HCT feat to death to say the Phoenix wins in this thread? It has other feats that I believe are better then anything Onslaught displayed.For the record, I agree with OneDumbG0 in regards to the interpretation of that HCT feat. At the time I believe that is the correct intepretation. It makes more sense. However, I have no idea what's Marvel opinion on this at the moment. There's a site where the Handbook writers hang out at...can't remember the name but Chris Claremont has a thread there. Anyway in this site you can harass the writers of the Handbooks enough to change stuff in it for them for example intelligence of characters and strength etc...IRRC this is where that telekinetic atoms universe thing comes from.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the Phoenix Force is going to wreck a crap of load of people in AvX anyway. I still think it's greater then Onslaught. Additionally there's a very high probability that the Life Force is going to turn out to be the Phoenix Force and that is what Wanda's connection with Hope is.
Im a member of that site, comicxfan forums even been asked to become a handbook writer, a couple years back but uni, work and personal commitments mean i just dont have the time. Its time consuming writing handbook entries. Way beyond me.
As for ODG's interpretation if you read both arguments at length you will see that ODG's cannot be right. He argues that when Jean states she amputated the future that she meant by removing sublime from reality. Doing so would have no effect on the timeline as a whole as it does not address the trigger point that created the reality. It would mean that HCT was left intact and Jeans alteration of the past merely created a divergent reality. That did not happen. Thats always what happens when an event in the past is altered as that is marvel canon.
So what was done differently in this circumstance?
As Jean stated she actually amputated the reality from the multiversal tree. After removing Sublime she actually makes the point of saying the reality was too heavily infected so she went a step further and amputated. So there is a distinction made. A disinfection is not an amputation. Two different terms. ODG's interpretation means equating them, it also means ignoring my handbook entry that states Jean actually severed HCT reality from the multiverse.
So by going that step further and removing HCT from the multiverse before altering the past Jean avoided the creation of a divergent reality and instead perpetuated the continuation of 616.
With that in mind ODG's interpretation conclusively cannot be right, it contradicts a staple of marvel canon, it doesnt compliment all handbook entries and it necessitates ignoring the english language. 😬
My interpretation however addresses all statements on panel, is reflected by all handbook entries on the matter and doesn't have any gaping holes in it that cant be explained away.
Maybe i shouldve found the time to become a handbook writer and wrote the damn entry myself 😆
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As Jean stated she actually amputated the reality from the multiversal tree. After removing Sublime she actually makes the point of saying the reality was too heavily infected so she went a step further and amputated.
Wait, didn't one of the Phoenix Corps say, "If it was me, I'd just let it die" referring to the universe in her hands? Isn't that proof positive (plus with the handbook backing it up) that she indeed held a universe in her hands and could have let it die but choose to save it?
Originally posted by zopzop
Wait, didn't one of the Phoenix Corps say, "If it was me, I'd just let it die" referring to the universe in her hands? Isn't that proof positive (plus with the handbook backing it up) that she indeed held a universe in her hands and could have let it die but choose to save it?
Hey ZopZop
With ODG its just got to the point that hes arguing to argue. Pride has set in.
His argument for a variety of reasons just can NOT be right. Mine on the other hand doesnt contradict any official sources its backed up by them.
There are just a few points which crop up as per my interpretation such as how do you amputate a timeline and why would Jean bring the universe into the white hot room.
The 1st point is simply addressed. How does an anomaly in human genetics allow someone to manipulate the weather or warp reality? You do not need to be able explain it by real life science its a comic book, its stated it happened on panel, its stated it happened in handbooks and it makes sense that it happened by the accepted rules of marvel canon. Not being able to understand how a cosmic being did what its stated she did is not a reason to make an argument and surely not a point in favour of ODG. Its a comic book.
Furthermore as to why she had to bring the universe into the white hot room there was a lot of surgical terminology being thrown around the scene with Jean as Phoenix being likened to a multiversal surgeon, universes as the patients and the white hot room as a hospital. Where do you take patients to ensure that an operation occurs in the most stable environment and has the greatest chance of success? A hospital. Its a comic book, it is the way of the Phoenix and many cosmic beings to do things in an odd manner, but if its stated and visually depicted that the universes atoms were being controlled, if Jeans handbook is then updated to state that as a part of her power set she can now manipulate atomic structures of a universal scale then who are we to argue?
Accepting that its a comic book, with comic book physics and laws and odd ways of doing things added for drama and effect but going with it because its stated by official marvel sources is my way.
ODG would rather pick and choose what marvel sources he acknowledges in his interpretation, ignore the english language and equate two different terms in an effort to make sense of comic book cosmic beings according to his grasp of real world physics and most importantly ignore marvel staples in canon such as changing the past will result in a divergent reality.
👇
This has been fun though 😂
Originally posted by GalacticStormYeah... by extracting Sublime. The handbook did, in fact, state that extracting Sublime = amputating the future also. What is your protestation based on? Trying to fit in a telekinetic feat on time... in between panels because you need to manufacture some pretense that there is an escalation of feats occurring? Jebus christ. You're really trying to convince me that Jean simply carrying off Sublime's atoms into the White Hot Room here is Jean telekinetically removing a future... Creative, to say the least. Read your precious handbooks, buddy. Removing Sublime leads to the "amputation of the future" or "disinfecting an entire future reality." As confirmed by your precious handbooks:
I didnt feel the need to address your previous waffle point for point however i will put a little focus on this part.I dont need to convince anyone that Jean telekinetically amputated the future. She stated she did, the handbook stated she did and the fact that HCT disappeared as opposed to remaining whilst her event alteration perpetuated the normal timeline instead of creating a divergent reality all conclusively dumps on all you have to offer shit
NOWHERE, is it said on-panel that Jean "telekinetically" amputated/severed the future. Only that she amputated/severed the future. NOWHERE, is it said in even a handbook that Jean "telekinetically" amputated/severed the future. Only that she amputated/severed the future. None of your phucking scans refer to that accomplishment as being a telekinetic one (seriously... how do you telekinesis time anyway?). What do we know? We know how she amputated/severed the future: By extracting Sublime and sealing away his influence, because Sublime metaphorically and literally represented the terrible future (phucking christ... she stares at Sublime and refers to Sublime as the "future" even):
Originally posted by GalacticStormIrony. 😂 C'mon... stop making it so easy...
As for why Jean had to bring the universe into the white hot room to perform her work you can only speculate. She just performed the unparalleled feat of amputating the future off a reality following its disinfection, then the white hot room is called the hospital and she is told she needs to treat the wounded universe there. All in keeping with the surgery theme maybe it was a more stable environment to aid with the success of the treatment. Who knows? Ask Grant Morrison, its a comic book.
Originally posted by GalacticStormI agree. You have to accept on-panel statements, artistic depictions and handbooks that all verify the same thing. So phucking accept it. Accept that all Phoenix did after extracting/locking away Sublime in the White Hot Room was symbolically watering the universe with her life's blood by nudging Scott to finding love again. That was all that was required to replace the dystopic future with something new. We all know that. It's a common fiction trope, i.e., the butterfly effect. Change one small thing (that doesn't seem so important... but is really the ultimate dramatic flourish in a story) and change the future.
Do you know the ins and outs of how a universe sprouts abstract beings? Do you know the inner workings of M'kraan crystal or Ultimate Nullifier? Hell no do you or any other comic reader. Its a comic book. You dont have to. However if you are told that something happens within a comic book by on panel statement, artistic depiction and various handbook entries then you have no choice but to accept mate.
You don't need to telekinetically summon a universe's atoms to do that. Kitty Pryde didn't need a universal telekinetic summoning to prevent Days of Future Past. Bishop didn't need a universal telkinetic summoning to prevent Age of Apocalypse. Phucking Marty McFly didn't amp the Delorean from 88 mph+1.21 gW --> telekinetic universe summoning levels to change the Biff future.
Why can't you accept that Here Comes Tomorrow is more about Jean's sacrifice of one of the greatest romances in comic history and less about Jean's telekinetic power as a PotWC? Let go of your obsession over feats and pay attention to the story. It was a pretty good story. And it's better without the feat-crafting.
Originally posted by GalacticStormAgreed.
I believe i have said enough here.
^ I haven't given it much thought. But I think he was suggesting that Jean not bother replacing the Here Come Tomorrow future she prevented with a better future, i.e., let events play out in 616 as they will -- where Cyclops loses hope, Beast tries his best but fails, and a dystopic future develops in the inevitable war between humans and mutants (with or without Sublime).
Given how often the 616 universe seems to be heading towards a disastrous future anyway, e.g., Badoon taking over, Ultron taking over, Sentinels taking over, Kang taking over, etc., I'm not surprised that the notion to just leave 616 to its sh1tty fate was suggested.
@zopzop
Honest question for you... do you think Jean summoned a universe-sized Phoenix to flare up within the universe or is that just a symbolic image?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I haven't given it much thought. But I think he was suggesting that Jean not bother replacing the Here Come Tomorrow future she prevented with a better future, i.e., let events play out in 616 as they will -- where Cyclops loses hope, Beast tries his best but fails, and a dystopic future develops in the inevitable war between humans and mutants (with or without Sublime).Given how often the 616 universe seems to be heading towards a disastrous future anyway, e.g., Badoon taking over, Ultron taking over, Sentinels taking over, Kang taking over, etc., I'm not surprised that the notion to just leave 616 to its sh1tty fate was suggested.
@zopzop
Honest question for you... do you think Jean summoned a universe-sized Phoenix to flare up within the universe or is that just a symbolic image?
If they were in the White Hot Room in the M'krann Crystal, IMHO it was a universal size Phoenix flare. The White Hot Room exists simultaneously in all universes and who knows what rules regarding reality/space/time are in effect there.
Even if I'm totally wrong on that, Galactus on panel stated that the PF can annihilate an entire universe, Death confirmed this and stated that it can also create/recreate a universe. If it can do all that, amputating an alternate reality while outside space/time doesn't sound too far fetched.
In all honesty, the most convincing thing regarding what she had in her hand was the PC member telling her to just let it die (it being the universe in her hands).
I'll have to look at the scans again (the ones regarding the PC member talking to her).
Originally posted by zopzopThat's begging the question. After all, what's to stop mere visualizations of universes from manifesting within it? Anyway, you think a universal size Phoenix flare manifested within/atop the 616 universe. Ok. When we focus in on the 616 universe and return to the scene of Jean's grave... do you see a universe-sized Phoenix flare lighting up the sky or any evidence that a universal sized Phoenix flare is emerging/manifesting throughout the 616 universe?
If they were in the White Hot Room in the M'krann Crystal, IMHO it was a universal size Phoenix flare. The White Hot Room exists simultaneously in all universes and who knows what rules regarding reality/space/time are in effect there.
Another honest question: That Phoenix flare said, "Live." So was a universal resounding spoken word also heard throughout the 616 universe or was that word not actually reverberating throughout the entire 616 universe?
Originally posted by zopzopYou are well aware that it's been stated on-panel multiple times that Galactus dying/detonating would annihilate the entire universe. Been stated multiple times that Galactus is a co-equal force of nature between Death and Eternity. Galactus has also been stated numerous times to be destined to completely devour and rebirth the universe. Galactus actually performed on-panel surgery on a comatose Eternity during Infinity War. Are you going to argue that this is definitive proof that Galactus has telekinetic control over the atoms of a universe? Let's not confuse a comic character's station for a comic character's actions. Let's not conflate a comic character's role for a comic character's capabilities.
Even if I'm totally wrong on that, Galactus on panel stated that the PF can annihilate an entire universe, Death confirmed this and stated that it can also create/recreate a universe. If it can do all that, amputating an alternate reality while outside space/time doesn't sound too far fetched.
Originally posted by zopzopRight... and somehow in order to perform the simple task of nudging Scott to find love again... you have to telekinetically summon the atoms of a universe? If Booster Gold wanted to change the past via buttefly effect, does he need Skeets to telekinetically summon the atoms of the universe? Shall we nominate Booster Gold for Abstract? Let's face it. The reason there was a visualization of the 616 universe in her hands was because she had to focus on the 616 universe and 616 Scott (in an area where all universes/realities can co-exist, i.e., the White Hot Room) and nudge him to find love again and create a new future where he doesn't lose hope.
In all honesty, the most convincing thing regarding what she had in her hand was the PC member telling her to just let it die (it being the universe in her hands).I'll have to look at the scans again (the ones regarding the PC member talking to her).
Anyway, for whatever reason... 616 universe was summoned atomically... a universe-sized Phoenix flared inside it (but never actually physically affected it or was seen) and a universe-sized Phoenix spoke (but never was heard). C'mon now. The Phoenix flare was a symbolic visualization. So was the universe. To echo your sentiment... does that sound too far fetched?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That's begging the question. After all, what's to stop mere visualizations of universes from manifesting within it? Anyway, you think a universal size Phoenix flare manifested within/atop the 616 universe. Ok. When we focus in on the 616 universe and return to the scene of Jean's grave... do you see a universe-sized Phoenix flare lighting up the sky or any evidence that a universal sized Phoenix flare is emerging/manifesting throughout the 616 universe?Another honest question: That Phoenix flare said, "Live." So was a universal resounding spoken word also heard throughout the 616 universe or was that word not actually reverberating throughout the entire 616 universe? You are well aware that it's been stated on-panel multiple times that Galactus dying/detonating would annihilate the entire universe. Been stated multiple times that Galactus is a co-equal force of nature between Death and Eternity. Galactus has also been stated numerous times to be destined to completely devour and rebirth the universe. Galactus actually performed on-panel surgery on a comatose Eternity during Infinity War. Are you going to argue that this is definitive proof that Galactus has telekinetic control over the atoms of a universe? Let's not confuse a comic character's station for a comic character's actions. Let's not conflate a comic character's role for a comic character's capabilities. Right... and somehow in order to perform the simple task of nudging Scott to find love again... you have to telekinetically summon the atoms of a universe? If Booster Gold wanted to change the past via buttefly effect, does he need Skeets to telekinetically summon the atoms of the universe? Shall we nominate Booster Gold for Abstract? Let's face it. The reason there was a visualization of the 616 universe in her hands was because she had to focus on the 616 universe and 616 Scott (in an area where all universes/realities co-exist, i.e., the White Hot Room) and nudge him to find love again and create a new future where he doesn't lose hope.
Anyway, for whatever reason... 616 universe was summoned atomically... a universe-sized Phoenix flared inside it (but never actually physically affected it or was seen) and a universe-sized Phoenix spoke (but never was heard). C'mon now. The Phoenix flare was a symbolic visualization. So was the universe. [b]To echo your sentiment... does that sound too far fetched?
[/B]
But doesn't it sound strange, that ALL she had to do was make Scott find love again? Why would that be "Phoenix work"? It's the job of a universal level fundamental force of creation to help an ex boyfriend find true love with a new girl?
It was stated to be an orphan universe that was wounded. All she had to do to "fix" it would be to play match maker? That's incredibly bad writing.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens in 2012 with the big Phoenix Event and she how, if at all, it ties in to HoM Wanda/Doom with the "Lifeforce" that should help put everything into perspective.
Originally posted by zopzopIt doesn't sound strange at all. Living Tribunal has chatted with Doctor Strange. The Abstracts let Adam Warlock lead the charge against IG Thanos. Why is it strange that changing the future of 616 can be compelled by a simple choice? That's how universal divergences manifest. Jean needed to diverge 616 from its dystopic future. Are you suggesting that such a universal divergence could never manifest without telekinetically summoning it to the White Hot Room? And let me ask you this... who else but Jean Grey could compel Scott to find love again?
But doesn't it sound strange, that ALL she had to do was make Scott find love again? Why would that be "Phoenix work"? It's the job of a universal level fundamental force of creation to help an ex boyfriend find true love with a new girl?
Originally posted by zopzop"Bad" because the solution could be so simple from a feat standpoint? We shouldn't fall into the trap of being obsessed with feats over story. I certainly do not. Because definitively self-sacrificing one of the greatest romances in comicdom seems to be monumental from a story standpoint. It continues to stand as one of the greatest, most tragic things that has ever happened to Cyclops and Jean Grey. You don't see that? It's like we're missing the forest for the trees here.
It was stated to be an orphan universe that was wounded. All she had to do to "fix" it would be to play match maker? That's incredibly bad writing.
Originally posted by zopzopIronically enough, GalacticStorm has taken a definitive stance that HOM Wanda did nothing truly special/powerful at all because her feats were only magnified by virtue of the Chaos Wave manifesting in Otherworld. So HOM Wanda wasn't as powerful as everybody makes her out to be according to him. GalacticStorm is the last person in the world who would want HOM Wanda and the Phoenix Force to be one and the same. Trust me.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens in 2012 with the big Phoenix Event and she how, if at all, it ties in to HoM Wanda/Doom with the "Lifeforce" that should help put everything into perspective.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0[/b]
It doesn't sound strange at all. Living Tribunal has chatted with Doctor Strange. The Abstracts let Adam Warlock lead the charge against IG Thanos. Why is it strange that changing the future of 616 can be compelled by a simple choice? That's how universal divergences manifest. Jean needed to diverge 616 from its dystopic future. Are you suggesting that such a universal divergence could never manifest without telekinetically summoning it to the White Hot Room? Let me ask you this... [b]who else but Jean Grey could compel Scott to find love again? "Bad" because the solution could be so simple from a feat standpoint? We shouldn't fall into the trap of being obsessed with feats over story. I certainly do not. Because definitively self-sacrificing one of the greatest romances in comicdom seems to be monumental from a story standpoint.
I get what you're saying, but it's just that I find it odd. If that's all that was needed, ANYONE even a lowly human being could have talked Scott into moving on with his life. If that's what the PF has been reduced too, it barely qualifies for the job of guidance counselor (at least they need training)😄
Ironically enough, GalacticStorm has taken a definitive stance that HOM Wanda did nothing truly special/powerful at all because her feats were only magnified by virtue of the Chaos Wave manifesting in Otherworld. So HOM Wanda wasn't as powerful as everybody makes her out to be. GalacticStorm is the last person in the world who would want HOM Wanda and the Phoenix Force to be one and the same.
LOL. I was actually arguing this too 🙂 But I guess all questions will be answered soon (hopefully).
Originally posted by zopzopObviously, you didn't see my edit before you responded. So let me highlight it since I posted too quickly:
I get what you're saying, but it's just that I find it odd. If that's all that was needed, ANYONE even a lowly human being could have talked Scott into moving on with his life. If that's what the PF has been reduced too, it barely qualifies for the job of guidance counselor (at least they need training)😄
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Nobody else could. And nobody could really defeat Sublime either. But again, just because the story was resolved through the choice of dramatic self-sacrifice (rather than unheralded zomg jizz-worthy tk wow-power featzorz!!!!) doesn't make it bad writing. That's often the point of time travel stories... change one small thing and change the future. Save the cheerleader, save the world and all that crap. I mean... that's literally how Here Comes Tomorrow ended.
It doesn't sound strange at all. Living Tribunal has chatted with Doctor Strange. The Abstracts let Adam Warlock lead the charge against IG Thanos. Why is it strange that changing the future of 616 can be compelled by a simple choice? That's how universal divergences manifest. Jean needed to diverge 616 from its dystopic future. Are you suggesting that such a universal divergence could never manifest without telekinetically summoning it to the White Hot Room? And let me ask you this... [b]who else but Jean Grey could compel Scott to find love again?[/b]
Originally posted by zopzopDoubt they're going to revisit Here Comes Tomorrow. Avengers: The Children's Crusade seems to be answering all the questions about HOM Wanda.
LOL. I was actually arguing this too 🙂 But I guess all questions will be answered soon (hopefully).
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Obviously, you didn't see my edit before you responded: So let me highlight it since I posted too quickly:
It could have been a close friend or someone Scott trusted deeply.
Doubt they're going to revisit Here Comes Tomorrow. Avengers: The Children's Crusade seems to be answering all the questions about HOM Wanda.
Oh I don't think they'll mention anything about Here Comes Tomorrow, I was just speculating that if the "Lifeforce" HoM Wanda and Doom tapped into really does turn out to be the PF (Doom's shiney new white outfit looks awfully similar to someone we all know 😄), the PotWC holding a universe in her hands in the WHR won't sound too far fetched. Or they can have no relation (Lifeforce and the PF) and I was totally wrong. 😮
Like this :
I wonder...........
Originally posted by zopzopWell obviously they all failed and Scott lost all hope leading directly into the dystopic future. You're suggesting that nobody tried (Emma definitely did), but I think it's very fair to assume that they did try and nobody but Jean could change Scott's heart.
It could have been a close friend or someone Scott trusted deeply.
Originally posted by zopzopIt would be less far-fetched but I don't think it would change anything. In fact, I think it would be yet another example of why GalacticStorm's theory makes less sense. HOM Wanda didn't need to telekinetically sever time or telekinetically summon a universe's atoms to do what she did. HOM Wanda just did it. No White Hot Room, no telekinesis, none of this convoluted crap I keep arguing against.
Oh I don't think they'll mention anything about Here Comes Tomorrow, I was just speculating that if the "Lifeforce" HoM Wanda and Doom tapped into really does turn out to be the PF (Doom's shiney new white outfit looks awfully similar to someone we all know 😄), the PotWC holding a universe in her hands in the WHR won't sound too far fetched. Or they can have no relation (Lifeforce and the PF) and I was totally wrong. 😮Like this :
http://x.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/9/40/4ede7115412ff.jpgI wonder...........
Doom > PotWC. GalacticStorm would have a sh1tfit.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yeah... by extracting Sublime. The handbook did, in fact, state that extracting Sublime = amputating the future also.
Not in the slightest. This is one major flaw with your interpretation, equating the words disinfect and amputate. They are two completely different surgical procedures not even remotely similar but both however are steps within an operation. Lets take a case of gangrene in a limb. The 1st solution would be to disinfect the area of the infection. If that failed to resolve the issue and there was the potential for further infection and possible harm to the main body the subsequent solution and the last resort would be to amputate the infected limb. The handbook did NOT state that extracting Sublime = amputating the future. The handbook entry you presented stated that Jean removed Sublime and that disinfected the future reality which is true it did. However your handbook entry makes no mention whatsoever of Jeans statement that she amputated the future, it doesnt account for that. Once again omission does not equate to contradiction. The more important step for the story was Jeans alteration of the past.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're really trying to convince me that Jean simply carrying off Sublime's atoms into the White Hot Room here is Jean telekinetically removing a future... Creative, to say the least. Read your precious handbooks, buddy.
I am doing no such thing 😂
That is not what i have stated in any part of this thread. Jean did not carry Sublime into the White Hot Room. Sublime was carried off by an unknown black claw like appendage before Jean walked into the WHR as previously discussed.
What im arguing here is that Jean disinfected the future reality by extracting sublime, thats what your handbook actually states, what it does not state is that Jean amputated reality by extracting Sublime. Once again two different terms you are trying to equate for the purposes of your interpretation. Furthermore Jean actually states herself after extracting Sublime that she had to amputate the future because the infection was so bad. Thats a different step.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Removing Sublime leads to the "amputation of the future" or "disinfecting an entire future reality." As confirmed by your precious handbooks:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
NOWHERE, is it said on-panel that Jean "telekinetically" amputated/severed the future. Only that she amputated/severed the future. NOWHERE, is it said in even a handbook that Jean "telekinetically" amputated/severed the future. Only that she amputated/severed the future. None of your phucking scans refer to that accomplishment as being a telekinetic one (seriously... how do you telekinesis time anyway?).
Granted. Its not stated that Jeans amputation of HCT is a telekinetic one. But given that the whole series promoted the power of the Phoenix as "telekinetic godhood" and the act of amputating is a physical cutting off of an extremity (in this case a future) and telekinesis is the Phoenixes promoted main physical power then that is a very reasonable assumption to make.
What isnt reasonable is to have your conclusion and interpretation in the back of your mind and then proceed to twist the definitions of words so that two very different terms are equated so that they coincide with your fantasy 🙂 Amputation is not a disinfection. Even your handbook scan refers to how Sublime was extracted from Beasts body and that disinfected the future. Extraction and disinfection are again NOT amputation.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What do we know? [b]We know how she amputated/severed the future: By extracting Sublime and sealing away his influence, because Sublime metaphorically and literally represented the terrible future (phucking christ... she stares at Sublime and refers to Sublime as the "future" even):
We dont know she amputated future by extracting Sublime. Once again youve come to your conclusion and youre coming into this debate and looking at this evidence and twisting it to fit in with your made up mind.
Youre contradiction yourself, we know she AMPUTATED the future by EXTRACTING Sublime do we? ❌
Two very different terms.
I agree that Sublime represented the twisted fate that was in store for the X-men if Jean did not fix her mistake and perform the Phoenix work she should have when she first manifested the Force again in New X-men. In fact as Jean questions is Sublime the future as in what fate holds in store for the X-men the Consciousness rejects this notion and says "this is now" as in no its not necessarily the future Sublime is just the current problem they face. Very fixable. So clinging on Jeans question NOT verification that Sublime is the future no longer serves your argument.
Furthermore something you appear to have overlooked is that my handbook entry doesnt merely state Jean amputated the future (which would allow you room to interpret that Sublime was being referred to by the future reference) it specifically states that Jean severed reality 15104 from the rest of the multiverse thereby officially confirming that point within my interpretation:
Just to clarify according to Marvel Jean severed reality 15104 from the multiverse as per my interpretation. What she did not do was sever a metaphorical future from the reality by extracting bacteria from Beast. That was the disinfection part of the operation, that your handbook entry refers to. 🙂
So Jean disinfected 15104 by extracting Sublime from Beast as per your handbook entry, Jean then states the infection was so bad she had to amputate the future, a point omitted by your handbook entry however mine clarifies that this was not a metaphorical act but Jean actually removed this actual future reality from the multiverse and that was BEFORE she changed events to perpetuate the timeline from the stump she had made.
I love how my interpretation is reflected by your official evidence and my own and yet your interpretation is rejected by my evidence. Quite telling 🙂
Originally posted by OneDumbG0 C'mon... stop making it so easy... I agree. You have to accept on-panel statements, artistic depictions and handbooks that all verify the same thing. So phucking accept it. Accept that all Phoenix did after extracting/locking away Sublime in the White Hot Room was symbolically watering the universe with her life's blood by nudging Scott to finding love again. That was all that was required to replace the dystopic future with something new. We all know that. It's a common fiction trope, i.e., the butterfly effect. Change one small thing (that doesn't seem so important... but is really the ultimate dramatic flourish in a story) and change the future.
Easy if youre deluded and youve fooled yourself into believing you actually know what youre talking about 😂
You accept that after disinfecting HCT by the extraction of Sublime, reality was too badly infected necessitating the amputation of reality 15104 from the main multiversal body. In keeping with the medical theme the now wounded (following the amputation) universe then had to be taken to the white hot room which Consciousness called the "hospital" to replace the dystopic future through the continuation of 616 thereby closing the wound. That is why the universe was brought into the white hot room to be treated by the multiversal doctors that are the Phoenix Corps. The Consciousness manifests the universe and using the skills Jean picked up in her training she maintains atomic control of the 616 reality before altering the past to fix her mess.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You don't need to telekinetically summon a universe's atoms to do that. Kitty Pryde didn't need a universal telekinetic summoning to prevent Days of Future Past. Bishop didn't need a universal telkinetic summoning to prevent Age of Apocalypse. Phucking Marty McFly didn't amp the Delorean from 88 mph+1.21 gW --> telekinetic universe summoning levels to change the Biff future.
You dont need to telekinetically summon a universe to merely alter a past event but again youre seeing everything through the smog that is your interpretation. Not a single one of those cases were preceded by a cosmic surgeon hacking away at the future prior to the event alteration. And hack away at the ACTUAL future is exactly what the handbook confirms Jean did.
Also in all of the cases you referred to without thinking properly when the past events were altered by the characters, that act had NO EFFECT ON THOSE ALTERNATE REALITIES WHATSOVER. All of those divergent realities remained in existence alongside 616.
WHY?
Because as i quite helpfully informed you of previously:
Changing the past under NORMAL circumstances does not alter the future.
What made this case different and why does HCT no longer exist?
Because Jean as stated specifically in the handbook amputated the obstructing future timeline PRIOR to altering the past.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Why can't you accept that Here Comes Tomorrow is more about Jean's sacrifice of one of the greatest romances in comic history and less about Jean's telekinetic power as a PotWC? Let go of your obsession over feats and pay attention to the story. It was a pretty good story. And it's better without the feat-crafting. Agreed.
Your argument is in tatters.
Beg to differ?
Come up with a new interpretation that:
doesnt ignore the english language.
that explains the handbook entry specifically stating Jean severed the ACTUAL reality as opposed to the metaphorical rubbish u tried to throw at me
explains why the ACTUAL HCT reality is no longer a part of the multiverse, something that hasnt happened with divergent realities in previous past alteration stories.
Hmmmmmmmm 😖hifty:
