Originally posted by Tony Stark
Proof that she can?
She's wasted and has shown influence over more powerful characters than Sentry/Void...easily?
I get the whole "Bob keeps coming back!" aspect of the character, but being able to heal and revive one's self from death or destruction does not mean that the actual metaphysical cosmic concept of Death itself cannot kill you. That's just ludicrous.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Yet, unfortunately this severely weakened Owen didn't have the power to perma-kill Sentry. Only disperse his molecules.
I like how you're trying to make the feat of ripping apart a high herald (at that point) look like it's worth nothing.
Molecule Man has ripped Sentry apart on three occasions and up until that point Sentry has proven to have great durability. Put other heralds in his place instead and then let's look if they can return under their own power.
Did Thanos ever rip a high herald apart? His best high end showing was beating down the Silver Surfer, but an enraged Thor has managed to do that as well.
"BUT BUT ENZERU, SILVER SURFER WAS NOT BEING SERIOUS DURING THAT ENCOUNTER WITH THOR, BECAUSE HE WAS ONLY TRYING TO HELP HIM..!"
Well son, one does not keep his durability back and receives an ass-whooping freely.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Unlike his true power (mentally stable and/or evil MM)
who proved able to not only rip out the essence/spirit of a Cube being,
but also had the power to perma-kill the most powerful Cube being,
at the expense of the freakin infinite Multiverse.
Great, now you're talking of the versions of Molecule Man, that were easily above Skyfathers :-7 No one would beat these versions in fights. Not even Thanos' and Sentry's love child.
Fact is that the Molecule Man during the Dark Avengers arc was still more powerful than Thanos at that point and more powerful than prior incarnations of him, even though Sentry haters like to argue otherwise. They even go as far to say that the Dark Avengers MM was his weakest incarnation so far, even though that version of the Molecule Man ripped a city sized chunk out of a planet and flew it through the space, repaired the Earth at once, ripped apart a high herald with ease multiple times and was transmuting Adamantium and overall organic molecules, something he was not capable of in the past.
Originally posted by Mr Master
If you're talking about what I believe you're referring to,
then Owen fixed a few parts of the planet, it wasn't the whole planet,
it was literally just the great Wall of China, the Kremlin,
the White House, and Mount Rushmore."planetary level manipulator?" .... Not based on that son.
The fact is that that feat sets him above the "local level manipulator" some biased people on this board make him out to be. And it's literally only this board. I've never seen people making such a stupid argument on other boards.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Owen's level of molecular manipulation was literally spelled out for us:"I control the molecules of the very world, well, [b]the ones around me
"-------------------------------------------
(Victoria Hand confirms this fact)
So why does your version make more sense?
It doesn't. It's just that you want to get your opinion through, just because[/b]
That's actually my favorite part of this entire "discussion" ... thanks for posting the Victoria scan, since now I don't have to do it myself.
Victoria Hand, someone who has NEVER met the Molecule Man before - at least during that arc, so she shouldn't even know about his power levels ... says that he controls the molecules around him!
Do you grasp the meaning of that?
So now, people, who didn't even have anything to do with the Molecule Man prior to that know about his current power levels... which are in your opinion at a local scale, yet...
Comics have stated that his power levels during that arc were unknown:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2920995-namw_2005__weak_when_empowered.jpg
Him being imprisoned happened a long time ago at that point and his power levels were manageble to a point where he wasn't ripping people apart left and right, something he did to heralds, when he re-appeared again ... and his power levels were unknown at that point, but now Victoria, who never even heard him say that he controls the Molecule's around him knew that he controls the molecules around him?
Damn, could it be, because that was Bendis' perception of the Molecule Man at that point, because he checked the character up in the past and saw the instances, where Molecule Man lost, because at one point he didn't have molecules around him to work with, since he was trapped in a bubble without molecules?
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2920767-ff373_20.jpg
Or how about that one moment in the fight against the Sentry, where he blows the Sentry up and the explosion sends him flying away and the Molecule Man needs to change the ground in order to stop his own fall and avoid damage? Surely, someone who can control his own molecules, rather than mainly the ones around him should have a high enough durability to take the fall without suffering any damage:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2921159-zone_dark_avengers077.jpg
Get the hell off, Mr. Master. Having an own take on something is nice and fine, but one can also take it too far.
What you're doing is ignoring stuff in comics to make excuses for the Molecule Man.
Sentry > Molecule Man > Thanos
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Technically, the Sentry/Void as we saw in Siege should be more powerful than other depictions because he ingested more of the serum than originally gave him his high/powers.
Utter nonsense.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Been a while since I've read the last few issues of Dark Avengers before Siege, but I could have sworn Osborn gave Sentry another dose of the serum that originally gave him his powers, no?
He did, but in prior comics it was established that there was only one version of the serum, which couldn't be re-created again. It has also been established that the serum would have worked on anyone and not just on Robert Reynolds - during the time he took it, he was just a regular guy.
What Osborn gave Sentry was a simple placebo. Never directly stated in the comics, but everything indicates it.
If it was the real serum, don't you think that Osborn would have taken it himself? :-|
Originally posted by Enzeru
He did, but in prior comics it was established that there was only one version of the serum, which couldn't be re-created again. It has also been established that the serum would have worked on anyone and not just on Robert Reynolds - during the time he took it, he was just a regular guy.What Osborn gave Sentry was a simple placebo. Never directly stated in the comics, but everything indicates it.
If it was the real serum, don't you think that Osborn would have taken it himself? :-|
Bendis more or less retconned those prior comics, so...
It wasn't stated to be a simple placebo, but we should assume it was...why? And no, considering Osborn had a better grasp on reality and sanity than Reynolds did, I don't think he would have risked taking the serum himself because he was frightened of Reynolds' potential plus Osborn, in his own twisted way, wanted to be a hero and save the world.
So, yeah, I'm not sure how, given Bendis' clear intent, that Siege Sentry/Void wouldn't be one of the most powerful depictions of the character. I mean, you might be able to argue he had a knock off version of the serum and not the original - even though I can't personally recall that as I believe it was intended to be the real deal - but you can't really argue it didn't have a positive effect in terms of his power level or the like.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Bendis more or less retconned those prior comics, so...
So the Void is now the biblical Angel of Death?
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It wasn't stated to be a simple placebo, but we should assume it was...why?
Sentry: "Is this the serum? Is this it?"
Osborn: "It is."
Sentry: "Is it for me?"
Osborn: "It is, and you know why it's just for you? Because it doesn't work on anyone else in the entire world. Just you. You're like Captain America, that way."
That's not retconning stuff, but straight up telling the opposite of what has been established in the comics. It goes even further by saying that the weaker version of the Super Soldier Serum only worked on Captain America and no one else as well.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And no, considering Osborn had a better grasp on reality and sanity than Reynolds did, I don't think he would have risked taking the serum himself because he was frightened of Reynolds' potential plus Osborn, in his own twisted way, wanted to be a hero and save the world.
Osborn was wearing the Goblin mask under his Iron Patriot suit and kept screaming: "HE'S THE ANGEL OF DEATH!", when he got stopped by the Avengers...
... So, not sure if serious regarding the reality and sanity statement.
Fact is that Osborn is a power hungry madman, who already in the past did everything to gain godlike powers:
1. During the Spider-Man arc "The Gathering of the Five" he wanted to be a part of a ritual, where he could have received one of five random gifts: power, immortality, knowledge, insanity and death...
Even though two of these gifts would have been devastating for anyone he took his chance and thought he got power, but in the end of the day it was insanity that he got, which at that point gave him the power of a madman, but still left him defeatable.
2. To gain more power he also accepted the powers of the Super Adaptoid, which also always comes with side effects, which left him defeatable as well.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So, yeah, I'm not sure how, given Bendis' clear intent, that Siege Sentry/Void wouldn't be one of the most powerful depictions of the character. I mean, you might be able to argue he had a knock off version of the serum and not the original - even though I can't personally recall that as I believe it was intended to be the real deal - but you can't really argue it didn't have a positive effect in terms of his power level or the like.
The thing is that the Void in the past got rid of his opponents just as fast or even faster :-7 Void was not doing anything special during Siege, just more of the stuff Void does the best: beating people up.
Void had the Avengers at his mercy in the past:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178871-5.jpg
Void broke the Hulk:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2179099-3.jpg
Void is too much for everyone on the battlefield:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178899-4.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178900-5.jpg
Void stomps everyone:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178985-8.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178988-1.jpg
Doctor Strange considers himself useless against the Void:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178650-1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178651-2.jpg
Doctor Strange is afraid of the Void:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2179153-1.jpg
So yeah, it's not like Void wasn't a major threat in the past, who was at least as dangerous and powerful as the Siege version.
Originally posted by Enzeru
So the Void is now the biblical Angel of Death?
Osborn thinks he is and the Void made itself known back in biblical times, apparently. That's about as much as anyone can really say barring any more evidence. *shrugs* I personally don't think that Void is a biblical entity or abstract level power.
Originally posted by Enzeru
Sentry: "Is this the serum? Is this it?"
Osborn: "It is."
Sentry: "Is it for me?"
Osborn: "It is, and you know why it's just for you? Because it doesn't work on anyone else in the entire world. Just you. You're like Captain America, that way."That's not retconning stuff, but straight up telling the opposite of what has been established in the comics. It goes even further by saying that the weaker version of the Super Soldier Serum only worked on Captain America and no one else as well.
...erm, that's pretty much the definition of a retcon, albeit a radical one. Bendis' take on the Sentry/Void is different from Jenkins, and as such, his interpretation overceded the original. Until someone else comes along and then retcons Bendis' take, that's what we got.
Originally posted by Enzeru
Osborn was wearing the Goblin mask under his Iron Patriot suit and kept screaming: "HE'S THE ANGEL OF DEATH!", when he got stopped by the Avengers...
... So, not sure if serious regarding the reality and sanity statement.Fact is that Osborn is a power hungry madman, who already in the past did everything to gain godlike powers:
1. During the Spider-Man arc "The Gathering of the Five" he wanted to be a part of a ritual, where he could have received one of five random gifts: power, immortality, knowledge, insanity and death...
Even though two of these gifts would have been devastating for anyone he took his chance and thought he got power, but in the end of the day it was insanity that he got, which at that point gave him the power of a madman, but still left him defeatable.2. To gain more power he also accepted the powers of the Super Adaptoid, which also always comes with side effects, which left him defeatable as well.
I didn't say Osborn wasn't crazy. He was and is. But at the time, he was definitely more stable than Sentry/Void, who basically wanted to kill everything for the sake of killing. Not sure how anyone can argue that. In fact, that was the whole point of their relationship: the fact that Osborn, who was definitely unhinged mentally, was trying to guide someone even more sick in the head than he was. "I got better, so can you" was one of Osborn's main selling points to Bob.
Concerning the Gathering of Five, yes, Osborn wanted power for the sake of power for his own selfish ends. Not disputing that. Osborn during the Thunderbolts and Dark Reign era, was still insane, wasn't completely batshit bonkers. Definitely not to the point of Sentry's level (the guy claimed he was Galactus, for crying out loud). Furthermore, you have the fact that Osborn's (further) descent into madness was aided and manipulated by Loki...who is pretty much the king of manipulation and pulling strings. And even Loki didn't count on Sentry's madness outweighing Osborn's own.
Anyway, back to my original point, no, during the events of Dark Reign/Siege, I definitely do not believe that Osborn would have wanted to become anything remotely close to the Sentry/Void. He was scared of slipping back into the Goblin persona. And Reynolds downright shook him to his core.
Originally posted by Enzeru
The thing is that the Void in the past got rid of his opponents just as fast or even faster :-7 Void was not doing anything special during Siege, just more of the stuff Void does the best: beating people up.Void had the Avengers at his mercy in the past:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178871-5.jpgVoid broke the Hulk:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2179099-3.jpgVoid is too much for everyone on the battlefield:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178899-4.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178900-5.jpgVoid stomps everyone:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178985-8.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178988-1.jpgDoctor Strange considers himself useless against the Void:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178650-1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178651-2.jpgDoctor Strange is afraid of the Void:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2179153-1.jpgSo yeah, it's not like Void wasn't a major threat in the past, who was at least as dangerous and powerful as the Siege version.
Yes, Void's always been powerful, something I'm not disputing. But given the fact that (at least under Bendis) he had taken more of the serum that had given him his powers to begin with and the fact that he completely lost it, it was pretty clear that Siege Sentry/Void was intended to be one of the most powerful depictions of the character at the least. Especially given the gradual final erosion of Bob's psyche and the death of Linda, I'm struggling as to how Siege wasn't intended to be one of his most powerful depictions, especially considering the plot device powers (Norn Stones) that were required to even begin to harm him in the first place.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Osborn thinks he is and the Void made itself known back in biblical times, apparently. That's about as much as anyone can really say barring any more evidence. *shrugs* I personally don't think that Void is a biblical entity or abstract level power.
Because he is not and should't be viewed as such. That's where comics start mocking religion and that's a dangerous territory.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
...erm, that's pretty much the definition of a retcon, albeit a radical one. Bendis' take on the Sentry/Void is different from Jenkins, and as such, his interpretation overceded the original. Until someone else comes along and then retcons Bendis' take, that's what we got.
The problem I personally have with his "retcons" is that they're leaving more questions open than answered, while Jenkins take on the character has nearly everything explained.
The best and only retcon Bendis came up with is molecule manipulation being the source of Sentry's power set.
Everything else goes against his take on the character:
1. An insane madman in Osborn and a terrified wife in Lindy being the only ones, who talked about Sentry's potential origin,
2. The enhanced version of the Super Soldier Serum only working on the Sentry and the regular version of the Super Soldier Serum only working on Captain America, while we know that they were other Super Soldiers,
3. And now to the the biggest proof for Osborn talking crap: Sentry was already receiving more of the serum in the past and he needed to take higher dosages to remain his power level, but he found out that what he was receiving was pure poison - the military was trying to kill him, but they always failed at doing so.
And now all of a sudden Osborn is supposed to have access to a serum that gives you godlike abilities? I doubt that.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I didn't say Osborn wasn't crazy. He was and is. But at the time, he was definitely more stable than Sentry/Void, who basically wanted to kill everything for the sake of killing. Not sure how anyone can argue that. In fact, that was the whole point of their relationship: the fact that Osborn, who was definitely unhinged mentally, was trying to guide someone even more sick in the head than he was. "I got better, so can you" was one of Osborn's main selling points to Bob.
If Void wanted to kill everyone for the sake of killing, everyone would have been dead already.
At the beginning Void was doing exactly the opposite of the stuff Sentry did:
Sentry saved 150 people, Void killed 150 people.
Sentry cured a young girl, Void gave a young mother untreatable breast cancer.
Sentry told Void that he hates him with the intention to kill him, Void told the Sentry that he loves him and kissed him.
Later on Void couldn't handle it anymore and wanted to reshape the world into something Robert Reynolds and Lindy Reynolds could not live in, but he didn't have the full control over it. He himself stated that Osborn is trying to manipulate him, when he is a weak mental state, so even the Void knew about his own problems, which were limiting him. These problems were gone, when Lindy got killed (which made Sentry lose his humanity once and for all) and Void started killing former teammates (Ares).
It really doesn't have much to do with Norman Osborn. Dark Avengers was a Sentry fest (and it's insane that it still left many questions unanswered for many readers, who didn't bother going in depth with the character).
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
[...] even Loki didn't count on Sentry's madness outweighing Osborn's own.
To be fair, Loki had a bigger issue with Void's power level at that point, who he called all-powerful.
Joker is more insane than the Sentry, yet Loki wouldn't have any problems with the Joker.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yes, Void's always been powerful, something I'm not disputing. But given the fact that (at least under Bendis) he had taken more of the serum that had given him his powers to begin with and the fact that he completely lost it, it was pretty clear that Siege Sentry/Void was intended to be one of the most powerful depictions of the character at the least. Especially given the gradual final erosion of Bob's psyche and the death of Linda, I'm struggling as to how Siege wasn't intended to be one of his most powerful depictions, especially considering the plot device powers (Norn Stones) that were required to even begin to harm him in the first place.
I agree with you and then I also don't agree with you.
Bendis stated that there was no one holding the character back anymore and that he was meant serious business at the end, which would mean that his power level overshadowed prior incarnations of his, but in the end of the day - the Void still never lost to anyone besides the Sentry at that point. He never faced worthy opponents, so saying that he was more powerful than before requires to much theorizing about his power level at that point, since he didn't have worthy opponents to judge that power level.
What stopped him was reality warping from the Norn stones.
But right now I'm the one who is going way too far with the analogies and explanations, which you might not even be interested in or still have a different perception of them - and in the end of the day it's still thread hi-jacking at its finest. Sorry for that.
So Jenkins is the actual creator of Sentry correct? And he gave Sentry his powers through a serum? But Bendis retconned it into himbeing some sort of ancient Angelesque like thing? I kinda like the angel thing, but Marvel is so wierd, gods get beaten by angels which can be beaten by gamma powered one trick pony humans.
Originally posted by ShadowFyre
So Jenkins is the actual creator of Sentry correct? And he gave Sentry his powers through a serum? But Bendis retconned it into himbeing some sort of ancient Angelesque like thing? I kinda like the angel thing, but Marvel is so wierd, gods get beaten by angels which can be beaten by gamma powered one trick pony humans.
Yeah, Jenkins created the Sentry and had him taking the enhanced version of the Super Soldier Serum, which gave him his power.
Bendis had the interesting idea to come up with a hint that the serum might have unlocked something more in the Sentry than the actual serum would have been able to give him (therefore the Angel of Death references).
But interestingly there were more versions of the Super Soldier Serum.
I know three of them:
1. The one Captain America took, which enhanced his physical stats to the level of a peak human.
2. The enhanced version (100.000 times more powerful) one Sentry took, which gave him godlike powers.
3. The one, which was similar to Captain America's, but it was also enhanced and instead of enhancing physical attributes, it enhanced the mental abilities of the test subject... Trenton Craft took that version:
http://marvel.wikia.com/Trenton_Craft_%28Earth-616%29
Once again, just a regular guy like Captain America and Sentry before him and on all of them the Super Soldier Serums were working - Captain America's version of the serum has been re-created and it was also stated that the military was not able to re-create Sentry's version of the serum, therefore he remained the only one with his power.
Originally posted by bbrem123
If they say Void is the angel of death from biblical times how could he have received his powers from a serum at all? Makes no sense
It's because the serum supposedly unlocked something monumental :-7
I've covered Sentry's origin in depth in this thread:
http://www.comicvine.com/sentry/4005-1454/forums/sentry-faq-what-is-sentry-s-origin-1479421/#0
A lot of text as always coming from me, but if you care about the topic, it should help you out.
