Questions?

I thought it would be good to have a thread where people can ask questions pertaining to the books. and to start this thread off my question is, is glorfindel of rivendale the same as glorfindel of gondolin? I have read other internet sites that argue it both ways, but i was reading Return of the Shadow (history of middle earth) and it said that it was intended that he was one in the same (i will check it tonight so i can site a page number) and that mandos had released him back to middle earth. So basically what is everybodies thoughts and are there any other refrences either way on the subject.

The Simarillion index rather plainly splits them into two different people.

Nothing official from Tolkien ever said that Glorfindel returned.

I agree with the two separate people theory. 🙂

Hmm, let's see if I have a good question...just a minute, I need to rack my brain...

k here is what i found in "Return of the Shadow" page 214-215. this is taking place just before the council of elrond- "glorfindel tells of his ancestory in gondolin" years later, long after the publication of LOTR, my father gave a great deal of thought to the matter of glorfindel, and at that time he wrote "in LOTR is one of the cases of somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as the silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of LOTR". He came to the conclusion that glorfindel of gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with a balrog after the sack of the city, and glorfindel of rivendale were one in the same: he was release from mandos and returned to middle earth in the second age" -Christopher Tolkien
this makes me wonder if there is other info about it (i think Christopher refers to a letter) and second why glorfindel and not others such as ecthelion?

Because it's all very confusing...

Here's what the Encyclopedia of Arda says:

With the possible exception of Tom Bombadil's identity (and - of course - the wingedness or otherwise of Balrogs), there is no more hotly debated topic than the ultimate fate of Glorfindel. Were Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell the same person?

The only real resource we have to answer this question is in The Peoples of Middle-earth (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12): XIII Last Writings, Glorfindel. Christopher Tolkien dates the notes he gives here at 1972, the year before his father's death.

These notes clear up one question immediately: at the time of the writing of The Lord of the Rings, Glorfindel of Rivendell was not conceived as the same character as Glorfindel of Gondolin. Tolkien says, 'Its use [i.e. the name 'Glorfindel'] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends ... which escaped reconsideration in the final published form...'.

Tolkien was far from happy with this state of affairs, however, and it seems that he intended to reconcile the problem by uniting the two strands of the story. In summary, the notes tell us that Glorfindel's spirit returned to the Halls of Waiting, but was after a time re-embodied by the Valar. He then returned to Middle-earth (either in the mid-Second Age, or as a companion of the Istari in the Third). For the full story of his return, refer to The Peoples of Middle-earth.

interesting, so i guess if i am reading it right when LOTR was written they were not intended to be the same character (nor was it even really thought about). Later on tolkien gave much thought to it and finally determined that they were one in the same. I still havent found the last 3 books in the history of middle earth except on the internet and they are hardback. guess i am going to have to try harder to find them!

k next question, this seemed a little far fetched to me but i had read (again on the internet) that thranduil and legolas were in gondolin and escaped the sack of the city. i find this far fetched, but maybe there ancestory is from there or something. Is there any literature that pertains to this?

Back to the Encyclopedia of Arda... 😄

From the looks of it that seems quite impossible. After reading bios for Legolas, Thranduil, and Oropher (Legolas' grandfather), it seems that they never dwelt in Gondolin, but were Sindarin elves from the country of Lindon who traveled eastward to found their forest kingdom. Lindon was in the north-west, while Gondolin was in the south.

Then again, I'm not entirely sure about it.

I think I finally thought of a question: Why...oh, I forgot again...

Ya, i complete agree, very unlikely. It was kind of a stupid question but i had read it in a forum like this and i thought it would be kind of cool if there was any support for it. I was hoping more people would be posting questions. this is a great resource and there are some people here who really know there stuff. Im the only one posting any questions!!! well heres another one. Is there any literature that confirms or denies that balrogs have wings?

another question, i am so full of them. where do dragons come from? it is said that morgoth couldnt create anything new but only in mokery of other creatures. orcs were in mockery of elves, trolls in mockery of ents. So where do dragons fit in? mockery of the eagles? or maybe they were mair like balrogs? hopefully Ush will get in on this, he knows his stuff.

Hey, I know some of this stuff too...sort of.

I'm pretty sure that Balrogs have wings. It says so in the book, unless the Balrog is stretching his arms to full wingspan, which would seem pretty stupid and wouldn't make sense, because then it would be called armspan or something like that. 😄

Hmm, dragons, dragons, dragons...I'll be right back...

i have a question, are there any drawings of balrogs besides the one from morgoth

Drawings of Balrogs? Hmm, I wouldn't know about that...

My Middle-Earth book says that Sauron and Morgoth formed dragons together, Glaurung being the first.

didn't know sauron had a part

Well I know there is a big contreversy over whether balrogs have wings or not and i think the main cause for it is that there isnt any literature supporting it either way. I was hoping that perhaps C. tolkien had published something about it and if anyone in this forum can quote the information.

There is a little text that conferms it. I think that was the idea anyway.

EoA says that the origin of dragons is unknown. Glaurung was issued from the gates of Angband, so it is either one of Morgoth's creatures or he corrupted some grand thing.

WELL I AM HOPIN THAT SOMEONE CAN SITE A REFRENCE FOR BALROGS AND WINGS, AND WHERE DRAGONS COME FROM. THEY ARENT SOMETHING MORGOTH JUST CREATED SINCE HE CANT DO THAT SO IT MUST BE SOMETHING HE CURUPTED.

Corrupted creature seems more likely, and it makes you wonder if at some point dragons were consider grand and beautiful things instead of terrifying monsters that look at you with a look that says "You look tasty...I wonder if you're good when turned into charcoal..."