well you are right, in the begining all miair could assume any form they wanted but some that became corrupt lost that ability.
I was wondering if any one had heard this as well. there isnt going to be an extended dvd for return of the king due to jackson doing a remake of king kong. does any one have any further info on it?
okay how do people feel about this one, we all know that Sauron was defeated when the ring was destroyed. we can also be resonably sure that if he got the ring he would have swept across middle earth and his victory would have been complete. but what if they decided to hide the ring. Sauron obviously didnt know the location of the ring so lets say it was hidden in the Falas with cirdan. so lets assume that all the battles would have taken place similarly to what really happened. So could Sauron be defeated in that manner? I think he would have been subdued for another 3000 years. my reasoning is Saruman was defeated, gondor won the battle of the pelenor fields, Rivendale survived the assault on it as well as Lorien. Erebor would have fallen and the battle at the black gate would have been lost. so would the armies attacking erebor and the army at the black gate be enough to re-assail minis tirith as well as destroy lorien and rivendale? i dont think so, but i guess you can then ask would rivendale, lorien, and what ever was left in gondor be strong enough to destroy baradur again?
If the Ring was hidden and not destroyed, not only would the fight at the Black Gate have been lost, but Aragorn would have been killed and the line of Gondor's kings would be lost forever, as well as a large portion of the Gondorian and Rohirrim population be wiped out. With the armies destroyed, Sauron would have then destroyed the rest of Rohan and Gondor, since most of the warriors of both lands were at the battle at the Black Gate. The Elves' armies have been diminished because of the Elves leaving Middle-Earth, and would not be able to stand against the thousands of Orcs pouring their way. After the Elves have left Middle-Earth or been entirely destroyed, hobbits would have been enslaved and would not last long in slavery (as Tolkien has said many times), and eventually Sauron would reach Cirdan. Sauron's second darkness would be slower than it would have been with the Ring, but it would complete within a couple hundred years, if not thousands. Barad-dur would stand tall and invincible, and, unless the Valar acted and destroyed Sauron, the land would be Sauron's and the Orcs would run rampant, destroying any last trace of Men and Elves.
That's my theory of what would happen if the Ring was hidden.
true, the line of kings would be gone, the remaining left to defend gondor and rohan would most likely lose, but remember Sauron was scrambling to get enough troops to the black gate to overwhelm Aragorn. So would the remaining forces of Sauron be strong enough to destroy Lorien and rivendale. i dont think so unless there was major reinforcement from the east that we dont know about. Also if they werent trying to decieve Sauron Aragorn would not have gone to the black gate and with those forces minis tirith would stand for a long time. Your probably right though in saying that if sauron won it would take hundreds of years. I dont think he would win in the intial attacks it would take years for him to build up enough soldiers, but Elves would also be more inclined to leave middle earth. and ya hobbits there is no question, they wouldnt even be a factor in defending middle earth.
No, Rex's basic point is correct- the Battle of the Black Gate is the crucial point. Remember, the good guys were going to be slaughtered there. Denethor tells Gandalf after Pelennor Fields that they have only destroyed a small portion of Sauron's forces and Gandalf says that whilst Denethor was taken by depression, he was not wrong.
ROTK makes it very clear that the good guys faced annihilation at the Black Gate but that when the Ring, and Sauron, was destroyed, the bad guys panicked and fled.
And if they had not gone, as you suggest, they were still doomed as it was clear that Minas Tirith (which had been breached, remember) could not be held.
That being the case, the Elves would have still faced the destruction they feared.
Gandalf rejected hiding the Ring for very good reasons.
i guess you didnt understand my last post. i agree with rex. i know they were about to be wiped out at the black gate, but remember he was strugling to get his forces to the gate in time. in example remember the hurried troop of orcs that ran into frodo and sam? he probably had enough to defeat them but he wanted to overwhelm them, plus he though Aragorn had the ring, in which case it would require all his forces, if aragorn could wield it properly. it also says that lorien could fall to no power except if sauron himself came. again i agree with you guys, Sauron would win, but it wouldnt be in the intial attacks. now i do beleive that he COULD be defeated though. only one wall in minis tirith was breeched. it would take a massive amount of saurons force to overtake the other 6 if Aragorn was there, and after that he would need to move onto helms deep, then rivendale, then lorien. and what i am saying is after all that, he does not have sufficient force to sweep across all lands. And lets say that while assailing minis tirith all the other forces left where able to band together, (unlikely) i would have to think that that would be enough to defeat Saurons forces but not Sauron himself.
That initial breach of Minas Tirith was made out to be cataclysmic. There was no real effort from Suaron needed to destroy the forces at the Black Gate. But let me quote here as to what Gandalf saw as the future of Minas Tirith:
"Hardly has our strength sufficed to beat off the first great assault. The next will be greater. This war then is without final hope."
No, Minas Tirith would NOT have held very long at all. It would have fallen very fast. Sauron's forces vastly outclassed the good guys. And once the good guys were defeated Sauron would have been free to assault Lorien himself.
In fact, if the army defeated at Pelennor Fields was only a small part of his strength, he could almost certainly have besieged Minas Tirith and still wiped out the rest of the free world in any case.
All of which was moot; as pointed out in FOTR hiding the Ring was impossible.
ush, you make a good point, but here is another question for you. gandalf does make it clear that there is no hope, but just looking at armies against armies, where are these massive armies Sauron has? the only reason i ask is Rivendale was attacked but the attackers were destroyed, same with Lorien. Rohan was supposed to be attacked but the ents destroyed that army as well. the only successful campaign for Sauron was the lonely mountain, and his mightiest army (i assume) was defeated at the black gate. where are these massive forces and why didnt he use his full power? the only thing i can think of is maybe gandalf said that because he knew that Sauron had an almost limitless resource of soldiers out of the east. What do you think?