Like the Matrix? 😄
Sauron could have done the whole "wipe out everything with a final blow," but that was just not how Sauron did things. Plus, it wouldn't be much fun, now, would it? 😈
I have a question. If Sauron was supposedly the most powerful Maiar that ever existed, how come he's always been defeated when he enters a battle himself? He fell to the great wolf-killing dog in the Silmarrillion, and he fell to Elendil and Gil-Galad, and Isildur at the Last Alliance.
I think it was simply tactically impossible for Sauron to use his whole force in one battle. You simply couldn;t fit them onto the field. The reserves, one assumes, were in Mordor.
Rex, Sauron was always a powerful Maia, no doubt, but he didn't actually become Numero Uno until the Ring was built. And remember that dog that beat him was a. on a good day and b. also the hound of one of the Valar! It was Maia-strong in of itself. So a fair fight.
And he didn't fall to Elendil and Gil-Galad, did he? He killed them both. And remember, these two heroes were so unstoppably strong that they had bested everything that Sauron had sent against them- Gil-Galad in particular was meant to be utterly unstoppable in battle.
So Sauron had to take to the field himself. But let us remember who it was he was fighting at that point. We know he was up against:
Gil-Galad
Elendil
Isildur
Elrond
Cirdan
Egad! Bascially a gathering of the hardest damn people on the continent, that was! Sauron killed the two greatest before Isildur got in his killing blow.
well you make it sound like all five of them fought sauron and i dont beleive that was so. the movie has kind of misguided people. Sauron was already defeated when Isildur finally cut the ring from his finger. it was elindil and gilgalad who fought him alone. i wish i could remember what book i read this in but the only person to witness the final conflict was isildur, otherwise elrond and cirdan would have had the knowledge to destroy the ring right then and there.
Elrond and Cirdan DID want the ring destroyed there and then but it was Isildur who had it and he refused! And what I am saying has nothing to do with the films. And Sauron was not defeated enough to have not KILLED Gil-Galad and Elendil, was he?
Sorry, Turin, but you are wrong, they WERE all there. Direct quote from FOTR:
"I [Elrond] beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin where Gil-Galad fell... few marked what Isildur did; he alone stood by his father and by Gil-Galad only Cirdan stood, and I."
How much more clear do you want it? You really should check your basic facts on these things.
and dude your an ass!!! i never said they werent there, i said they took no part in the fighting against sauron. of course they were there, but it was elendil and gilgalad who defeated sauron, not elendil, gilgalad, isuldur, elrond, and cirdan. even in the quote you gave me you prove my point, elrond beheld, not partook in the battle. it is like many other battles in tolkiens world where the two combatants (in this case 3) defeated one another, for example ecthelion and gothmog, or huan and morgoths hound, or glorfindel and that balrog, or gandalf and the balrog he fought. and "few marked what isildur did", well didnt i say isildur took the ring and no one saw? well i may have been wrong in saying that isildur was the only one who saw the final conflict, but if no one saw what he did wouldnt you think that no one saw the final moments of the battle? so before you give me your high and mighty attitude (which since i got on this forum you have been giving me, i dont think you like people challenging you when your wrong) check and read carefully other peoples posts before jumping all over them. plus "check your facts", why when you can check them and prove my point for me. i dont sit infront of the computer all day with my books sitting open in front of me ready to slam any one when they improperly quotes something or when they read into it a little more then what was written. " how much clearer do you want it?" dude if you want to make a point make a point, dont be an ass about it, especially when your off the mark.
"The only person to witness the final conflict was Isildur"
YOUR words, in black and white, in your own post. RIGHT there. For EVERYONE to read. And utterly wrong. As you yourself admit that in your post, just what is your problem?
That being the case, I was fully justified in pointing out your error.
So get of your damn high horse and pay attention to what I say. Because it is YOU who made the mistake. And if you are going to go around contradicting what other people say, Turin, then I consider it a basic courtesy to check your facts first. If you erroneously correct me after I have checked the books, then you should expect a certain amount of hosility at your presumption and arrogance.
And Elrond and Cirdan DID see what Isildur did. As also described in the books, they tried to persuade him to destroy it but he refused.
Turin, if you cannot take being wrong, then that is your problem. But if you start mouthing off like that again I will edit your post and give you an official warning, clear?
Your tone and attitude is unacceptable, Turin. If you want to make your points in a clear and logical way then you may go on and do so. Carry on as you are and I will continue to take action against you.
And do not even THINK about trying to carry on this argument in the threads. No-one else is interested.
Now, if we could move on please, folks...
dude, ush, im sorry, i can see why you wouldnt want some one reading something that critises you. but the audience i wanted read it. again i am sorry, i made an error in a statement and am perfectly happy with admitting i was wrong. and if any other time i am wrong, please people let me know and i will gladly apologize, just be polite, pleezzzz. and anyone if i think your wrong i will gladly tell you why i think so and do my best to quote sources. but again if i think your wrong and your not please let me know why i am wrong, again just be cool about it.
captain rex, i totally agree, we needed to see more of gigalad and elendil. check this, i think this would have been sweet, elendil charge sauron so sauron turns to strike him down, but just then gigalad jumps up and stabs sauron right in the side with his spear. sauron screems out but slowly a fire creeps up the spear and consumes gilgalad. just as his ashes hit the ground elendil strikes sauron across the shoulder with a might blow, but it does little but pisses him off so he flings elendil against the rock face. then it picks up where the movie was. though not quit like the book it would have been sweet.
Turin, you may criticise me all you like, though most of what you say has no backing. I will even happily repeat what you said- that I cannot bear people saying I am wrong, and that I jump down your throat in a way that you did not with, for example, the question of the two Glorfindels. Your post was not edited because it criticised me. It was edited because I just told you not to mouth off, and then you went and did just that.
But if I am aggravated it is because I get cross when I say things derived from the books and then someone tries to make out I am wrong. Now, let me make some points clear
1. Your Glorfindel example is faulty. I made two simple points. First, that the Glorfindel index entry in the Silmarillion had them as two different people. Secondly, nothing official from Tolkien ever made out that Glorfindel returned. After that, some info was posted saying that Tolkien was THINKING about making them the same person. But that does not change either of my points at all, so the reason you could not jump down my throat then is that you had no basis to.
2. You insist that only Gil-Galad and Elendil fought Sauron. Other than that they were the only ones killed, I see no basis for assuming that. We know that the five I said were at that fight. We know the three surivivors were all by Sauron when the Ring was cut from his finger. I take it as a fair supposition that all five were opposing him- and much of the reference material I can find on-line seems to take the same view.
ALL we know of the fight is this:
Present were: Sauron, Elendil, Gil-Galad, Isildur, Elrond, Cirdan
Sauron killed Gil-Galad and Elendil
Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron.
Now, why the assumption that only the two who died actually fought?
So when Rex asks how Sauron lost, I think it was very reasonable indeed to point out the presence of the five mighty opponents who were at that fight.
You may disagree that Elrond and Cirdan did anything if you want (quite WHY they would just stand there is another matter) but do not make out I am automatically wrong in some unquestionable way. And when most of your post contained inaccuracies it is no wonder at all that I was not impressed by what you had to say.
I am holding no hard feelings, but I will continue to be aggravated when errneously corrected after consulting source material, and I will continue to delete posts made in defiance of what I say as mod. There is nothing personal in that at all.
k well in an effort to be hospitable i am going to address your issues.
first you stating that my glorfindel thing is faulty and i didnt jump on you because i had no backing is not true, i would not jump on someone like that when they are wrong. now the glorfindel issue falls upon wether you think that only published works by tolkien are correct or stuff that christopher tolkien has written is also correct. i get the feeling that you by denounceing my quote from return of the shadow you dont feel chris's stuff is accurate, but in that case you cant quote silmarillion since he compiled it.
now since it is 5'oclock and work is out, i am out of here and will address your other attacks on my statements later (after some research) lol