Questions?

All Chris says in that book is, as I say, that Tolkien was thinking about making them the same person, but there are a vast and staggering amount of things that JRR was THINKING about doing or changing.

The fact remains that in the Silmarillion, which aside from The Hobbit and LOTR is the only thing close to definitive finished Tolkien (with Chris himself pointing out how dodgy Unfinished Tales is and The Silmarillion itself being far from perfect), they are different people. What JRR was thinking of doing to change that is academically interesting- but factually irrelevant. The two points I made held. They are different in the Sillmarillion. Nothing official Tolkien released ever said Glorfindel returned. These points remain facts.

Meanwhile, I really would rather that you did not drag this thing about Sauron's death on and on. What I have said is the info we have from LOTR and the Silmarillion and there isn't really much to be added to that. I have given an answer I rather suspect Rex is happy with and I do not want this all bogged down on this issue; I want it to move on.

well said.

Some where I read that in the act of killing Sauron, Elendil and Gil-Galad were slain. I doubt it...

Ush always proves his point. End of that discussion.

Those five were indeed there, even if it only shows three of them in the film, the three in the film being Elrond, Elendil, and Isildur. I thought I might have seen Gil-Galad sent flying with the others that Sauron smote with the mace, but I'm not sure...

And we already solved the Glorfindel problem, that he was going to be the same character but Tolkien never officially made them the same.

Next question, before the arguing gets out of hand.

k well here is my final point, i am going to address the glorfindel and who battled sauron isue then i am done.

glorfindel- here is a quote from return of the shadow page 214-215. "he came to the conclusion that glorfindel of gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with a balrog after the sack of the city and glorfindel of rivendale were one in the same: he was released from mandos and returned to middle earth in the second age." so since this is a letter from jrr tolkien i take it as fact that the two were the same. the only discussion left is wether or not the tolkien world an individual beleives in ends with the published works of the hobbit and the lord of the rings or if the individual beleives in the final form of the evolving world tolkien created.

k now for sauron-
return of the king appendix b page 455 year 3441-
"Sauron overthrown by elendil and gilgalad, who perish"
the complete guide to middle earth page 206
definition of gilgalad-
"in 3441 gilgalad and elendil overthrew sauron but were themselves slain"
definition of elendil-
"elendil was one of the leaders of the last alliance which overthrew sauron and, with his friend gilgalad, its greatest warrior. he was slain, along with gilgalad, by sauron on the slopes of oroduin, but they in turn overthrew their enemy"
definition od sauron-
"Sauron was overthrown by gilgalad and elendil, but killed both his foes."
and finally the most conclusive evidence is found in the simarillion, of the rings of power and the third age, page 365
"but at the last the seige was so strait that sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with gilgalad and elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of elendil broke under him as he fell. but sauron also was thrown down"
so there is my proof that elendil and gilgalad alone battled sauron. i never said that cirdan and elrond werent there. as a matter of fact elrond was gilgalads herald (complete guide to middle earth, page 147). as far as the circumstances involved in the fight (why didnt the others join in) i could speculate that the others were occupied with orcs or sauron was his own champion and men andelves sent there champions to battle him, but ush doesnt like me speculating.

You did say they weren't there at first, actually. And all your quotes prove nothing! First of all, 'overthrown' means Sauron's forces were defeated, not that he himself was killed. Overthrown does NOT mean killed. It only refers to his military defeat. What you offer is NOT proof. "But Sauron also was thrown down". It does not say BY THEM, does it? It just says he was thrown down, and that those two were killed. You are ASSUMING the rest. Those are the same quotes I read from which I provided the only points we know about that battle. Your idea that those two fought him alone is still only OPINION.

You are making absolutely no difference to my argument at all. STILL all that shows is that in that battle Gil-Galad and Elendil were killed. It gives us no other information whatsoever.

And please do not bother repeating yourself over the Glorfindel thing. We have already had that quote and it still makes NO difference to what I said at all.

Now, you have pointlessly extended both arguments. Before I asked you politely. Now I am straight telling you- STOP. Rex himself has said he is happy with what I have said. Move on, next question.

EDITED

No, Turin. No last words, or final points. You were directly told to stop. That question is done with. No more. Please do not defy such an instruction again.

Well what do you peeps think about this:

There is also a Legolas Greenleaf in the story of the Fall of Gondolin (in the First Age), but it is not known if they are the same elf. That Legolas led the refugees over the plains, because he was night-sighted.

IS legolas also a reborn elf? Or not?

He COULD be, though the Legolas of the books doesn't display the conspicuous power one might expect from a veteran of the First Age.

Turin asked a question like that earlier. It seems Legolas' family came from the far west, from Lebannon if I remember correctly. Then again, it would be nice if I knew where I could find Gondolin on a map.

Please do not drag on the arguements that we have already discussed. Elendil and Gil-Galad were slain by Sauron, Isildur killed Sauron, and Elrond and Cirdan were there to watch while fighting Orcs. Glorfindel of Gondolin and of Rivendell were meant to be the same people but not officially declared the same (no, a letter from Tolkien to a friend or his son are not really that official), and I had already mentioned that quote. Those questions have ended. I don't mean to be rude, but arguements tend to make me angry and I don't like getting angry while sitting at the computer talking about stuff I enjoy with other people that enjoy the same things...

That argument is done with; there will be no more said about it. I already made that clear. Any attempts to prolong it will be edited out just as Turin's post was.

Goody. 🙂

captain rex, thank you. i feel exactly the same as you just said about the previous discussions. but any ways i thought i had heard some where about legolas in gondolin, but thanks to novithliel i dont think i am going crazy.

With being Crazy is nothing wrong😄 Me myself am crazy....haha...
I know about Legolas family.....I translated something about his family......and I have seen a map from Gondolin once.......But where?!??

Spoiler:
will shelob, the huge spider, be featured in rotk? since she wasn't in ttt like she was in the book. gosh, another movie with spiders, ack! ewie! ^.~

---nb: use spoiler tags for spoilers, please---

Spoiler:
yes shelob will be in ROTK

What a big secret...

what is gondolin a city in Gondor? it's old capital?

gondolin is an ancient city of elves. it was considered the last great hope of the elves in their battles with morgoth (saurons master). the city finally fell near the end of the first age.

whatever happened to morgoth??? like...was he desroyed or does he still inger??? geez i need to read history of middle earth again...😕