Ok, fair play there.
But now we just need to determine by how much.
Can we just say his speed and reflexes was amped by a factor of one million? That sounds ridiculously high enough to satisfy the naysayers of the feat, yet even when applied still gets across how ridiculous that city building feat is, because if you make it take a million times longer its STILL far beyond Thor's speed and reflexes to do.
I think there was another scan where Jor-el said that it was all an assumption and whether it's true or not, he was still struggling with a few clone bizzaros whom bizzaro doomsday oneshot killed. Supergirl also went to bizarro world in her own book and there was no amping for her there. It's just some prediction from an A.I based on nothing, after all feats are better than statements.
I doubt Superman was amped by like a million times or anything. It's worth mentioning in a thread like this imo but shouldn't be used as definitive evidence as he still had an ambiguous amp from a source that's not usually in play.
I think people have been a bit unfair to Carver here with some of their arguments. Especially since this is the kind of shit Carver would get flack for usually. You know you pull these type of stunts when it suits you bro.
Originally posted by paisapower
For Supes, thats not always the case[/URL][/IMG]
Props for the scan. I was going to reference this scene but I forgot who he was fighting.
It could imply that super fast punches > regular punches but that would be an extreme outlier. I'd personally think it'd make more sense that he hit harder and faster, only my imo. The more punches unleashed, the less power they pack at super speed is often the case from what I've seen, even with someone like the Flash. Approaching light speed is probably the only sure means if boosting power through super speed in comics.
Either way, I still think that would have more of an effect than his Mongul/Imperiex type shit. It's what I had in mind when I referenced the bull rush tactic. Fly into Thor and start pounding. He shouldn't sleep on him though, Gladiator did and payed for it.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Ok, fair play there.But now we just need to determine by how much.
Can we just say his speed and reflexes was amped by a factor of one million? That sounds ridiculously high enough to satisfy the naysayers of the feat, yet even when applied still gets across how ridiculous that city building feat is, because if you make it take a million times longer its STILL far beyond Thor's speed and reflexes to do.
The thing about this is...while building that City, Superman could have been using other abilities to aid him in putting that city together. We really don't know since we only seen a blur while he was doing it.
The scan in reference isnt an accurate depiction of what Superman is capable of under normal conditions, as such should be discarded.
Besides building a city however great a feat that is, is not relevant in determining how he would fair against a defensive opponent.
To clarify, Superman has no more of a magic weakness than Hulk, Silver Surfer, etc..its a forum misconception that he does. The hammer (though enchanted and powerful) is not and end-all artifact, or an irresistable force. Its capacity for destruction comes from Thor's strength.
Now we've seen Thor getting trumped by Mongoose, as well as him catching him. The latter feat could be argued is a feat of the hammer, but Thor was able to respond to his blitz. Every other example, like the Wolverine incident, should be taken as an FL vs SM example and ignored.
In Avengers 166, Thor has shown FTL speed feats such as blocking Nefaria's heat vision. Thor is depicted as fast enough to react to the attack. No many will say thats not a traditional "blitz" attack, however the fact that he was able to respond so quickly shows his reflexes are u to the task. Also understand that is canon that Thor controls Mjolnir, when during the Masterson era he throws the hammer and realizes he has to navigate it since it is not sentient, and wont do it on its own (Thor 433).
Plus add to the fact that thor has shown that he is as fast as he needs to be for any given situation. He doesnt need superspeed to fight hulk. He rises to the occasion to fight norrin, gladiator, nefaria, hyperion, etc.
Its all subjective really as writers tailor stories to build suspense and keep things less than consistent. In one story Thor is taking in Glory or Bor, the next he gets owned by Osborns crew in the beginning of Siege.
The problem arises when some of the "proof" of Thor's FTL reflexes is ambiguous (the whole Thor in space/hammer navigation issue). Both side are interpreting this differently and neither side is willing to budge. It boils down to whether or not Thor's hammer has navigational AI. If it does then Thor doesn't need near FTL reflexes to maneuver in space. If it doesn't then Thor does need near FTL reflexes.
Truth of the matter is u dont even need FTL reflexes to respont to a blitz because, Superman, Diana, etc dont have combat feats at that level. At the end of the day all speedsters in comics get tagged, so imo Thor will be able to respond appropriately
Originally posted by Sin I AM
The scan in reference isnt an accurate depiction of what Superman is capable of under normal conditions, as such should be discarded.Besides building a city however great a feat that is, is not relevant in determining how he would fair against a defensive opponent.
To clarify, Superman has no more of a magic weakness than Hulk, Silver Surfer, etc..its a forum misconception that he does. The hammer (though enchanted and powerful) is not and end-all artifact, or an irresistable force. Its capacity for destruction comes from Thor's strength.
Now we've seen Thor getting trumped by Mongoose, as well as him catching him. The latter feat could be argued is a feat of the hammer, but Thor was able to respond to his blitz. Every other example, like the Wolverine incident, should be taken as an FL vs SM example and ignored.
In Avengers 166, Thor has shown FTL speed feats such as blocking Nefaria's heat vision. Thor is depicted as fast enough to react to the attack. No many will say thats not a traditional "blitz" attack, however the fact that he was able to respond so quickly shows his reflexes are u to the task. Also understand that is canon that Thor controls Mjolnir, when during the Masterson era he throws the hammer and realizes he has to navigate it since it is not sentient, and wont do it on its own (Thor 433).
Plus add to the fact that thor has shown that he is as fast as he needs to be for any given situation. He doesnt need superspeed to fight hulk. He rises to the occasion to fight norrin, gladiator, nefaria, hyperion, etc.
Its all subjective really as writers tailor stories to build suspense and keep things less than consistent. In one story Thor is taking in Glory or Bor, the next he gets owned by Osborns crew in the beginning of Siege.
The problem arises when some of the "proof" of Thor's FTL reflexes is ambiguous (the whole Thor in space/hammer navigation issue). Both side are interpreting this differently and neither side is willing to budge. It boils down to whether or not Thor's hammer has navigational AI. If it does then Thor doesn't need near FTL reflexes to maneuver in space. If it doesn't then Thor does need near FTL reflexes.
Truth of the matter is u dont even need FTL reflexes to respont to a blitz because, Superman, Diana, etc dont have combat feats at that level. At the end of the day all speedsters in comics get tagged, so imo Thor will be able to respond appropriately
I agree 100% with this.
Originally posted by carver9
The thing about this is...while building that City, Superman could have been using other abilities to aid him in putting that city together. We really don't know since we only seen a blur while he was doing it.
The thing that makes the feat so great is that he wouldn't have simply been stacking bricks together. He definitely would've been fixing electrical circuitry and shit too. And yes, he would've had to use other powers, like his heat vision and cold breath for the job, that's what makes the feat so amazing. That his brain's processing speed allows him to handle all that within seconds.
Metropolis is a huge city. It's supposed to be an analogue for New York City. And how many buildings are there in NYC? Almost a million. Roughly a million buildings fixed in maybe 10 seconds.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Besides building a city however great a feat that is, is not relevant in determining how he would fair against a defensive opponent.
No. Defensive stance or Offensive stance, its completely irrelevant if your reflexes are not up to par with that feat.
Think about how fast his hands have to be moving back and forth. Several hundreds of thousands of buildings. Completely patched up in seconds.
Even if you slowed it down by a million times, making him take months to do it instead of seconds, it would still be far faster than Thor's closest analogue feat, where he built a tower in seemingly a few minutes.
It's not even out of his abilities via power scaling. I've seen Superman back in the Golden Age comics create an entire underground city from scratch in seconds. And mainstream Supes and Golden Age Supes have clashed before, as confirmed by Sirius.
Originally posted by cdtmThe issue I didn't check. Son of a butthole
Action 855.Mentions flight and strength, which also includes a general depowering a red sun, so no reason to believe it wasn't talking about a general powerup under a blue one.
Also, if we're going to talk about what Superman could have been doing... he could have also created the majority of the buildings using his blue vision...
Originally posted by CosmicComet
The thing that makes the feat so great is that he wouldn't have simply been stacking bricks together. He definitely would've been fixing electrical circuitry and shit too. And yes, he would've had to use other powers, like his heat vision and cold breath for the job, that's what makes the feat so amazing. That his brain's processing speed allows him to handle all that within seconds.Metropolis is a huge city. It's supposed to be an analogue for New York City. And how many buildings are there in NYC? Almost a million. Roughly a million buildings fixed in maybe 10 seconds.
No. Defensive stance or Offensive stance, its completely irrelevant if your reflexes are not up to par with that feat.
Think about how fast his hands have to be moving back and forth. Several hundreds of thousands of buildings. Completely patched up in seconds.
Even if you slowed it down by a million times, making him take months to do it instead of seconds, it would still be far faster than Thor's closest analogue feat, where he built a tower in seemingly a few minutes.
It's not even out of his abilities via power scaling. I've seen Superman back in the Golden Age comics create an entire underground city from scratch in seconds. And mainstream Supes and Golden Age Supes have clashed before, as confirmed by Sirius.
Them fighting doesn't give Superman Golden Age Supes fts. Thor has clashed against both Glads and Hyperion, two beings that has fought on panel in nano seconds and has bodily funtions of moving there limbs at Hyper speed for an extended amount of time. He has also clashed against Surfer as wrll along with other speedsters. We do not share fts unless you want to give Thor the ability of performing fight scenes in nano seconds in-which I don't think he is capable of.
Wonder Woman has also tagged being like Zoom and Flash and she isn't anywhere close to their speed and I feel pretty much safe at saying that Golden Age Supes wasn't fighting main stream Supes at super speed.