Pre-Crisis Superman VS Worldbreaker Hulk

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So take that up with Galan, then. And for the record, most of the forum would agree that Galan knows his shit without being bias anyway. And even then, he's not infallible. Regardless, if you feel it's like your personal mission to police the forum on behalf of Superman, you're going to do what you feel like doing anyway. It's just hard to take you seriously when you're painfully transparent about it.

I made a bait thread for you? Really? What was that?

I know because Lex Luthor is Superman's archenemy you feel you must back him up in some capacity (for whatever reason) but I'd suggest you read up on Dr. Doom before you jokingly or seriously attempt to contend that Luthor has anything on him at all. PC Lex's super MacGuvyer gimmicks still fall short of the numerous times Doom's obtained damn close to omnipotent power if you want to take them at their absolute best. Post Crisis Lex isn't worth Doom's time at all.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=557624

Like I said I was just goofing around and I can defend anyone I want. This is none of your damn business. Who said I was going to police this forum or galan is ignorant? Don't patronise me jake, you feel like I'm wrong about anything make a thread about it. Lulz at doom beating PC lex. IYO, that doesn't makes it a fact.

Originally posted by cyborgbill
now that'just silly, ive read hundreds of comics with doom in them, luthor may not be scientifically as good as doom but he's not far off, he recently became an abstract level being.

You do realize how many times Doom has seized ultimate power, right?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Take that tone to somewhere else jake. It's not going to work on me. I was just giving an example. Your bait thread

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=557624

Like I said I was just goofing around and I can defend anyone I want. This is none of your damn business. Who said I was going to police this forum or galan is ignorant? Don't patronise me jake, you feel like I'm wrong about anything make a thread about it. Lulz at doom beating PC lex. IYO, that doesn't makes it a fact.

Lol? What tone? You were the one who flew in here and started complaining about how other people (not sure who) want to use only low feats for Superman and then proceeded to strawman and ask inane questions because you felt that Superman gets picked on or something? I don't know the logic or reasoning behind it, but it's pretty obvious to me what your angle is. I don't have any issues with it (I can put up with Carver and Quan more often than not, after all) but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

How is that a bait thread? The longer the prep time, the more of an edge it falls to Reed and Doom. And there's certainly room for "Superman speedblitzes before they know what to do" style arguments.

Okay, you're goofing around. Yes, you can defend whomever you want; just realize you'll be called out when said defense isn't all that sturdy. It's my business, and the forum's as a whole, if you actively participate in the, well, forum. I didn't say Galan was ignorant nor did I say you said that, though that seems to be a running theme here...me apparently saying things that I never did. If you don't think Doom could beat PC Lex, I don't know what to tell you considering who Doom has beaten before. Post Crisis Lex does not bode well. At all.

Originally posted by cyborgbill
sure, but it's a feat luthor can replicate so he isn't far off from dooms level, on top of that in children's crusade he supposedly gained omnipotence but then got stripped of his power, the only reason luthor lost is because he couldnt let go of his humanity and hate for superman.

So you believe that Luthor can replicate every feat of Doom's?

Yeah...no. Sorry, Lex is good, but Doom is better. And in some cases, a lot better.

So they both lost their ultimate power due to plot device? Okay.

And Doom's track record with ultimate power is still far better than Luthor's. Even with standard resources/weapons, Doom's better off than Lex. Not sure what there is to debate about.

Originally posted by cyborgbill
i think doom could beat luthor but i feel that luthor is being underestimated, doom is better with science and has better tech, but lex is arguably a better planner, schemer than doom is.

Based on feats, Doom would beat Luthor decisively, and potentially, very horribly.

Based on what is Lex arguably a better planner/schemer than Doom?

Originally posted by cyborgbill
no, i said luthor replicated some of his best feats. luthor didnt lose his power because of a plot device, he lost it because of CIS, he never got his power stripped from him.

doom is better with science, magic, tech, luthor is arguably a better schemer, strategist then doom is.

Okay, Lex Luthor's terrible personality traits backfired and caused him to lose his power. How does that make it any better than Doom?

So Doom is definitely, iyo, better with science, magic, and tech. But Luthor is arguably, iyo, a better schemer and strategist than Doom. How?

Originally posted by cyborgbill
the whole black ring story arc was planned by luthor, without all of the tech doom has luthor planned his way to god hood.

doom has impressive feats but he has more losses then luthor does also. t'challa was able to outprep doom also.

So, Lex planned and plotted his way to godhood without use of the tech that Doom has. And this makes him equal or possibly better than Doom...how? Does Doom get penalized for having way better resources than Luthor has by far? Or are you trying to suggest that Lex can do more with less (which I heartily disagree with, but that's another discussion)? Just trying to figure out where you're coming from.

T'Challa has been humilated by Doom more often than not. And T'Challa would likely outprep Lex as well. And if you're referring to Doomwar, that does T'Challa no favors as Doom clearly had him beat through the entire arc up until the very end.

Originally posted by cyborgbill
right, because doom has no terrible personaility traits, he was practically raging in children's crusade because he couldn't get into scarlett witches pants.

luthor imo has better feats when it comes to manipulating others, he's more subtle than doom is, planning out his moves more carefully over a longer term.

I didn't say that. I still don't get how you feel that Lex's CIS stopping him is a better excuse than plot device concerning Doom losing his total power amps.

Such as?

Originally posted by cyborgbill
no, that makes him a better schemer, planner, manipulator than doom is. doom doesnt get penalized for having better tech, but the tech he used played a huge part in gaining godhood, without tech doom doesn't have as impressive feats as luthor does, although that doesn't mean doom doesn't have impressive feats since he didn't technically use any tech in children crusade

t'challa wouldn't outprep lex, and yes i am referring to doomwar when he destroyed all the processed vibrainum, even if doom was winning for the entire story, he lost in the end. point is doom does have a worse track then luthor does

What are these schemes, plans, and manipulations you're referring to if I may ask? Doom without tech is still an accomplished mage, arguably one of the most powerful on Marvel Earth at this moment. If you give them the exact same resources, Doom would accomplish more than Lex would. Even if you give Lex an edge with more prep time or more resources at his behest, Doom would still beat him. He's just that much more intelligent and outright powerful without his devices and technology.

Based on what? Doom lost because he didn't expect T'Challa to basically take his country down to hell just to win and even then, if you call that a victory for T'Challa, it's the furthest thing from a clean through and through win I've seen for a long time. He has a worse track record? How? Especially considering everything Doom has done?

Originally posted by cyborgbill
because the only person that was able to stop luthor, was luthor himself, when it came to doom he lost because wanda and wiccan stripped him of the lfe.

such as outsmarting brainiac, nearly bringing beating most of new krypton's military, he had some pretty impressive stuff in countdown also

So Lex beating himself because of his flawed personality is somehow better than Doom's power being usurped due to plot device? All that means is that Lex wasn't able to control the power he had at his disposal. Still not sure how that makes him equal to or greater than Doom from Children's Crusade. And even then, Doom's entire history when taken into account is far more impressive than Lex's.

Doom's outsmarted Reed Richards, taken over the world more than once, obtained omnipotence more than once, has better tech, etc.

Lex isn't stupid, but really, based on feats, Doom operates on a different scale than he does.

Originally posted by cyborgbill
i listed a few above, doom being a magic user has nothing to do with how well he schemes and plans, if u give them the exact same resources doom accomplishing more than lex is something very debateable, he's more intelligent when it comes to science and tech, so he hasn't done anything to suggest he's as good a planner,schemer as luthor is.

doom not expecting t'challa to destroy his greatest resource is dooms own fault, which pretty much proves my point that doom has a tendency to not think things out thoroughly as luthor does, which is why his track record is worse then lex's is.

It does, actually. His magic has played very large roles in his schemes and plots. In fact, he has several arcs focused primarily around his mysticism instead of his science. If you give two guys the same stuff, and one guy is already more powerful than the other guy, and is smarter and well versed in more areas of science and the arcane than the other guy, how is it in doubt who wins?

So Doom not expecting T'Challa to tank his own country's resources is a fault against him, but Lex's irrational hatred of Superman causing him to lose his power doesn't count against Lex?

I'm still not seeing how his record is worse than Lex when Doom's accomplished way more than Lex has on a consistent basis and has beaten more people outright or through prep feats than Lex has.

lex really can't match up to Doom 😬

Originally posted by cyborgbill
yes, in superman's case they basically lucked out with lex, in doom's case it was simply a matter of them taking away the life force entity,

dooms history being more impressive is subjective also, he's beaten better but he's lost to worst. he's outsmarted reed and reed in return has outsmarted him, you can't just list all of dooms highest showings and ignore his lowest one's. doom's taken over the world, but taking over the world was never luthor's goal.

It wasn't really luck; it was Lex being unworthy of the power he tried to take. I'm not sure why Lex's example is better still.

It's not subjective, not really. I'm not ignoring his lower showings or his losses, either. I'm using his entire history as a character as opposed to Lex Luthor. And really, they don't compare. Doom's primary goals as follows:

-Humilate/defeat/prove his superiority over Reed Richards.
-World Domination (and beyond)
-Free his Mother's soul from Hell

He's accomplished all of those with the first two being goals he's succeeded at more than once. He loses because he's a villain and that's what villains do. How that is any different from Lex Luthor's plans to control, humilate, or destroy Superman not permanently sticking are beyond me.

Wait is this thread Doom/Lex or Hulk/Superman?

Originally posted by cyborgbill
no, i'm not saying his magic doesn't play a role in his schemes and plots,m i'm saying his magic has little to do with his ability to scheme and plot. if you give them the same tech doom might win because how well versed he is in using tech and magic but not because he can outplan lex.

yes, it's luthor's fault for being unable to let go his hate for superman, but this is a matter of superman lucking out to stop luthor, bcause if it wasn't for that there would be nothing else to stop him. on top of that luthor didn't even lose his powers, he ended up bfr'ing himself from the universe. in dooms case he lost because of someone elses actions. you can count that against luthor if you want, but it's not as bad as someone outsmarting him or stripping him of his powers, there was no external factors involved

you keep telling me that doom has so many awesone feats and has accomplished so much, but aren't acknowleding all of the losses he's had over the past 50 years in comparison to lex, his track record is worse

Except he can out plan Lex. How can Lex out plan a guy smarter than he is when it comes to virtually everything? Lex doesn't compete with an intellectual rival on a regular basis like Doom does. And Lex wouldn't be able to consistently give Richards a helluva fight mentally like Doom can. And yes, his magic enables him to scrye, explore avenues of research he wouldn't normally, and is a huge boon to him.

But Superman didn't "luck" out. He was dead to rights and Lex Luthor's personal foils beat himself. Doom lost to parties actively trying to beat him and succeeding through luck, plot device, and more than a smattering of PIS. And it's consistent with his history. The Power Cosmic, the Beyonder's Power, Vibranium Armor, the Destroyer Armor, Wanda's powers, etc. Doom loses when the plot calls for it, not due to him beating himself through personality traits. Ie. Doom doesn't beat himself because he's unworthy of the power. Either way, it's moot because villains with ultimate power ultimately lose.

That being said, Doom's accomplishments are better than those of Lex's. And Lex has been consistently losing or having his plans foiled by Superman for years, so what's your point?

Originally posted by cyborgbill
im out, the users here are too stupid for my taste

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by cyborgbill
considering there records, lex could outsmart doom, there is some serious fan wanking going on here and ignorance of the characters,

Do you really think Lex could outsmart Doom for the majority?

Jake now you're just reaching mindset's level. Doom would beat spectre, ZH parallax, COIE anti-monitor and The presence with a nanosecond of prep with bare hands, happy. Call me when he beats that pansy richards or lists better than real villains, you know like Lex, Joker, Magneto etc. What happens when "DOOM THE BESTESEST" comes to DC comics? This happens

Since grant morrison is God, this is the final fate of "DOOM THE BESTESEST"./rant

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Do you really think Lex could outsmart Doom for the majority?

Who says Morrison's god? O_o

His good stuffs really good, but there's days when he's obviously off his medication. 😈