Abraxas vs Dream of The Endless

Originally posted by leonidas
so you're saying the same thing he is--you think that was some pre-cursor to a multi-eternity? hmm, maybe, but i think the proof is pretty weak and the fact that it is a what if detracts from it even more. the idea that all eternities share a united consciousness interesting. i would need to see more proof than that ancient what if though.

About the Dr.Strange Feat were Eternity(Universal) shows him all the Universes, Its actually considered a form of cosmic awareness temporarily granted by Eternity to Dr.Strange.And from what I've found out, this isn't the only time Eternity(Universal) did this.Eternity(Universal) also did this in the Trial Of Galactus Story arc, were Galactus was put on trial for devouring living planets which resulted in a lot of alien races being wiped out.Later on, Reed Richards was put on trial.From what I heard from some friends of mine, this story arc details the existence of a Universe(Galan's Universe).They also stated that Watcher and Galactus combined their powers to summon Eternity(Universal).Eternity(Universal) temporarily gave all those present in the trial cosmic awareness.This resulted in Galactus's acquittal after finding out his importance not just to the Universe, but to all of existence.Back in the days, a lot of people questioned this story since this was viewed as justifying Mass genocide.The Abraxas saga justified Galactus's acquittal in the Trial Of Galactus.

Originally posted by Igniz
About the Dr.Strange Feat were Eternity(Universal) shows him all the Universes, Its actually considered a form of cosmic awareness temporarily granted by Eternity to Dr.Strange.And from what I've found out, this isn't the only time Eternity(Universal) did this.Eternity(Universal) also did this in the Trial Of Galactus Story arc, were Galactus was put on trial for devouring living planets which resulted in a lot of alien races being wiped out.Later on, Reed Richards was put on trial.From what I heard from some friends of mine, this story arc details the existence of a Universe(Galan's Universe).They also stated that Watcher and Galactus combined their powers to summon Eternity(Universal).Eternity(Universal) temporarily gave all those present in the trial cosmic awareness.This resulted in Galactus's acquittal after finding out his importance not just to the Universe, but to all of existence.Back in the days, a lot of people questioned this story since this was viewed as justifying Mass genocide.The Abraxas saga justified Galactus's acquittal in the Trial Of Galactus.

sure, i could more easily chalk that scene up to cosmic awareness than i could to a shared consciousness between all eternities. 🙂

the trila of galactus arc was cool, but i don't really see where it comes into play here. eternity did share awareness with those present. proof of cosmic awareness? sure, i'll agree to that, if that's all you were trying to say. 👆

Originally posted by leonidas

so you're saying the same thing he is--
you think that was some pre-cursor to a multi-eternity?
hmm, maybe,
but i think the proof is pretty weak
and the fact that it is a what if detracts from it even more.
the idea that all eternities share a united consciousness interesting.
i would need to see more proof than that ancient what if though.

There's also the time during the Infinity Crusade ordeal. (1993)

Here's the aspect of Eternity 616,
(after Warlock came to him concerning the Goddess taking over 616)
speaking as though he's not worried about the demise of the 616 Reality.

He claims because, he is "forever, All that ever was, is or will be"

(Roma said the same thing about the Eternity from the Abraxas arc)

---------------------------

This is another occasion, during the same time different tie-in.

Eternity/Infinity 616, again claim, (after Warlock came to them again about the Goddess)

"our realm is forever, and we cannot be overly preoccupied by any ONE Aspect of our Reality"

"We are All" ... No ONE part of the Whole is absolutely indispensable"

"The embodiments of Actuality" ...

"We may exist in Myriad fashions, and over the millennia have" ....

I interpreted this at first
as though it was the Totality and/or Multiverse-Omniverse that is All Eternity/Infinity,
I then realized
it's actually just the Consciousness of Eternity/Infinity which equates to the same,
and as such,
it may care or it may not care about any one Aspect (Universe/Reality) of itself,
because indeed, it is a all of them as one.

This doesn't quite make sense to me either to be honest,
cause Eternity/Infinity 616 are the foundation
and other references have led us to believe that if they go, everything else goes.

I guess some writers adhere to that idea, and others don't.

I've seen both sides of the idea supported on panel,
so I take whichever side into account based on the context of any given story.

Originally posted by leonidas

so you're saying the same thing he is--
you think that was some pre-cursor to a multi-eternity? hmm, maybe,

Whether or not you wanna accept this What If good friend,
you must now definitively agree,
that this Alternate Universe/Eternity-82432
is speaking about itself as though it is the Totality of Eternity, (all universes)
asserting Eternity is ONE Consciousness spread across all Eternities.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I guess some writers adhere to that idea, and others don't.

I've seen both sides of the idea supported on panel,
so I take whichever side into account based on the context of any given story.

👆

which is why i think the idea of trying to fit everything into one overarching theory really can never work. regardless of what you (in the general sense) believe, you'll be picking and choosing things to fit into that model.

i think the idea that each iteration of eternity is cosmically aware of other iterations is perfectly plausible and makes perfect sense. the idea of a shared consciousness is something vastly different to me though and i really don't think it can be said that by delving into the consciousness/"heart" of eternity (616) we delve into the consciousness of ALL eternities (or mutli-eternity, depending on how you see it). i can see why you might come to the conclusion. just feels very inelegant to me and there is too much confusing evidence to come to that conclusion for me.

Originally posted by leonidas

which is why i think the idea of trying to fit everything into one overarching theory really can never work. regardless of what you (in the general sense) believe, you'll be picking and choosing things to fit into that model.

i think the idea that each iteration of eternity is cosmically aware of other iterations is perfectly plausible and makes perfect sense. the idea of a shared consciousness is something vastly different to me though and i really don't think it can be said that by delving into the consciousness/"heart" of eternity (616) we delve into the consciousness of ALL eternities (or mutli-eternity, depending on how you see it). i can see why you might come to the conclusion. just feels very inelegant to me and there is too much confusing evidence to come to that conclusion for me.

I don't exactly disagree but I see it a bit differently.

In the Dormy arc, to me, it was All Eternity that was depicted.
This All Eternity is one with all its alternates, including the prime.

The examples above lean me more towards that idea,
but again, taking into account story context.

I wouldn't call that picking/choosing, because that's inevitable since
different stories, and/or different characters within an objective
view (depending on the title) are predictably written cause it all has to end at some point.
I think that's when we come in and wipe away the cis/pis and try
and make sense of a structured framework that's reasonable.

It makes sense that there is one Eternity that has expanded into many.

Simple.

Like Dr Manhattan I suppose on a smaller scale,
his other-selves act independently but they are all one consciousness
simultaneously aware of what all others have, are, experiencing.

*edit*

btw. In the Abraxas arc,
Roma said Eternity created a Galactus for every other Eternity.

This is because together, they hold Abraxas in check,
although it only takes 616 G dying for him to escape.

This again, signifies oneness.

^ Had Dormammu and Umar actually done anything multiversal in that Defenders arc, I'd believe it was Multi-Eternity there. They didn't, so I'm disinclined to believe it, despite Dormammu going on multiple tirades about "multiverse this, and multiverse that." That's my only issue, personally speaking.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Had Dormammu and Umar actually done anything multiversal in that Defenders arc, I'd believe it was Multi-Eternity there. They didn't, so I'm disinclined to believe it, despite Dormammu going on multiple tirades about "multiverse this, and multiverse that." That's my only issue, personally speaking.

What's that have to do with anything? Necrom with a sliver of the Phoenix Force was igniting planets into suns, telekinetically hurling moons around like toys, telekineticially hurling the molten core of a planet at an opponent, and destroying an entire solar system. Rachel Summers who had more of the PF than he did, couldnt' do jack at that level.

It's not just the power, it's your knowledge of it and how to use it. Just because Dormammu didn't do anything multiversal with Multi-Eternity's power doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't multiversal.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Had Dormammu and Umar actually done anything multiversal in that Defenders arc, I'd believe it was Multi-Eternity there. They didn't, so I'm disinclined to believe it, despite Dormammu going on multiple tirades about "multiverse this, and multiverse that." That's my only issue, personally speaking.

Marvel's Multiverse seems to use a different approach.According to the OHOTMU Guide to Alternate Universes 2005(Yes I know its an OHOTMU, but this is different since it details how the Marvel Multiverse actually works.So bear with me).Earth-616 is the main reality.Other Universes/Realities share a common history with Earth-616 but diverge at a certain point(Hence the What Ifs).I did notice that some Universes/Realities in the Marvel Universe are always based on Alternate Futures like the GOTG(Earth-691).The only explanation to Dormammu obtaining Multi-Eternity's power on why there are no Alternate Universes in his reality, is that he eliminated divergences.No divergences means no Alternate Universes/Realities.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I feel what you're saying, and I do see your reasons.

I don't exactly disagree but I see it a bit differently.

In the Dormy arc, to me, it was All Eternity that was depicted.
This All Eternity is one with all its alternates, including the prime.

The examples above lean me more towards that idea,
but again, taking into account story context.

I wouldn't call that picking/choosing, because that's inevitable since
different stories, and/or different characters within an objective
view (depending on the title) are predictably written cause it all has to end at some point.
I think that's when we come in and wipe away the cis/pis and try
and make sense of a structured framework that's reasonable.

It makes sense that there is one Eternity that has expanded into many.

Simple.

Like Dr Manhattan I suppose on a smaller scale,
his other-selves act independently but they are all one consciousness
simultaneously aware of what all others have, are, experiencing.

*edit*

btw. In the Abraxas arc,
Roma said Eternity created a Galactus for every other Eternity.

This is because together, they hold Abraxas in check,
although it only takes 616 G dying for him to escape.

This again, signifies oneness.

👆 Agreed.And here's more evidence to support your statement.From Fantastic Four#262, "The Cosmic Truth" is revealed by Eternity in order to acquit Reed Richards and Galactus of any wrong doing.This is a cosmic awareness feat by Eternity.But this could also serve as evidence that each universal Eternity knows what happens to one another through CA.

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc412/igniz6/CosmicMarvel/TrialOfGalactus1.jpg
http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc412/igniz6/CosmicMarvel/TrialOfGalactus2.jpg
http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc412/igniz6/CosmicMarvel/TrialOfGalactus3.jpg
http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc412/igniz6/CosmicMarvel/TrialOfGalactus4.jpg

I remember a lot of people were disgusted by this storyline saying it justifies extinction in a Planetary Scale when Galactus and Reed were acquitted of wrong doing.Apparently, the Abraxas saga justified Reed's and Galactus's acquittal since they were needed to contain Abraxas.

Originally posted by zopzop
What's that have to do with anything? Necrom with a sliver of the Phoenix Force was igniting planets into suns, telekinetically hurling moons around like toys, telekineticially hurling the molten core of a planet at an opponent, and destroying an entire solar system. Rachel Summers who had more of the PF than he did, couldnt' do jack at that level.

It's not just the power, it's your knowledge of it and how to use it. Just because Dormammu didn't do anything multiversal with Multi-Eternity's power doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't multiversal.

Sorry, but you can hang your hat on Dormammu's statements and bluster and ranting about "multiverse" all you want. He didn't actually do anything but warp the 616 universe to his own image. I'm not ready to give him full credit for scaling his influence back when he could easily have just been talking out of his a$$. This has happened before. Loki has boasted about obtaining "ultimate power" before getting his a$$ beat by Thor.

Originally posted by Igniz
Marvel's Multiverse seems to use a different approach.According to the OHOTMU Guide to Alternate Universes 2005(Yes I know its an OHOTMU, but this is different since it details how the Marvel Multiverse actually works.So bear with me).Earth-616 is the main reality.Other Universes/Realities share a common history with Earth-616 but diverge at a certain point(Hence the What Ifs).I did notice that some Universes/Realities in the Marvel Universe are always based on Alternate Futures like the GOTG(Earth-691).The only explanation to Dormammu obtaining Multi-Eternity's power on why there are no Alternate Universes in his reality, is that he eliminated divergences.No divergences means no Alternate Universes/Realities.

and......BUMP!! 😄

https://imageshack.com/i/nxdreamexistsacrossexistej

https://imageshack.com/i/jabosssmiley5j

https://imageshack.com/i/msbosssmiley4endlessaremuj

https://imageshack.com/i/e9bosssmiley3j

https://imageshack.com/i/0hbosssmiley1j

just a few examples that dream is indeed a multiversal conceptual being. here, in the dreaming, he actually creates a world:

https://imageshack.com/i/fvcreatingaworld1j

i still stand by what i said a couple years back. i see no reason at all to suppose abraxas could somehow defeat dream based on feats. his personal displays of power were almost entirely off-panel. at best, abraxas could be considered on par with destruction of the endless--also the multiversal embodiment of destruction, obviously, and so a stalemate could be argued. imo that's the best abraxas could do here.

Originally posted by leonidas
and......BUMP!! 😄

https://imageshack.com/i/nxdreamexistsacrossexistej

https://imageshack.com/i/jabosssmiley5j

https://imageshack.com/i/msbosssmiley4endlessaremuj

https://imageshack.com/i/e9bosssmiley3j

https://imageshack.com/i/0hbosssmiley1j

just a few examples that dream is indeed a multiversal conceptual being. here, in the dreaming, he actually creates a world:

https://imageshack.com/i/fvcreatingaworld1j

i still stand by what i said a couple years back. i see no reason at all to suppose abraxas could somehow defeat dream based on feats. his personal displays of power were almost entirely off-panel. at best, abraxas could be considered on par with destruction of the endless--also the multiversal embodiment of destruction, obviously, and so a stalemate could be argued. imo that's the best abraxas could do here.

Probably Morpheus. Also, see my other Dream (Daniel) thread.

Damn, leo's been building his case for 3 years to the day. That's dedication right thur. 👆

I had a dream a couple days ago that a lobster was infused with my shoe insole. And it was oozing random goo and was falling apart. The other insole had a huge scorpion stinger infused with it. I wasn't even in the right house either.

And for some reason I really had to get it out and couldn't. So I brought it to my brother and he mocked me while he took it apart easily. Then I went into the bathroom with it and my dream stopped.

The day before that I had a dream where everyone in the whole world was wearing faded out blue jeans. And I'm not sure if the shirts were tucked in or not but you could see everyone had a brown leather belt on too. That dream went nowhere though, same with the one where all my dogs were laying upside down permanently but still alive.

Is this part of Dream's powers and I can attribute these to him in this thread? Because if so he should win.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
The day before that I had a dream where everyone in the whole world was wearing faded out blue jeans.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

Is this part of Dream's powers and I can attribute these to him in this thread? Because if so he should win.

bro, that's either the a-bombs or the cheeba. dream ain't THAT cruel. 😐 if i have nightmares tonight though, YOU'RE the one i'm blaming.

Originally posted by Galan007
Damn, leo's been building his case for 3 years to the day. That's dedication right thur. 👆

was it really to the day?? 😂

i'm a phukcing nerd. bag

Nah, it was actually 3 years and a month... To the day... Since this thread was last posted in.

yew nurd!!11!!1! g007_teehee

Leo was just stewing in anger waiting for the chance to post that.
Everyday was just an escalation in steaming fury.