Originally posted by focus4chumps
hmm. what mistake would that be?
It's obviously in this post:
Originally posted by focus4chumps
well, its remarkably weird because its usually the one who drops 'reductio ad hitlerum' into a topic thats accused of trolling. thats cool how you flipped it.
But we could go back to the main point about SS and US Snipers, too.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
So now im curious, who is this man a sock of?
How do you know it's a man? AHA! uhuh
Originally posted by dadudemon
At face value, what's the difference between entrusting American Military with special killing jobs and entrusting Nazi Military with special killing jobs?
That's not really the critical difference (I assume you're aware of that and just testing to see what argument he comes up with). The SS was given the mission of wiping out millions of civilians. Snipers are given the mission of acting as scouts and of killing people who are trying to kill their allies (only snipers in anime get body counts into the millions). The Nazis used snipers too, Nazi snipers were also not as bad as the Holocaust.
Even if we assume snipers only ever kill innocent people in most moral systems killing two million innocent children is worse than killing fewer than two million non-children, though I've never asked a Mormon about it before.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That's not really the critical difference (I assume you're aware of that and just testing to see what argument he comes up with). The SS was given the mission of wiping out millions of civilians. Snipers are given the mission of acting as scouts and of killing people who are trying to kill their allies (only snipers in anime get body counts into the millions). The Nazis used snipers too, Nazi snipers were also not as bad as the Holocaust.
So your argument is one of number and for which country the dead belong? That's clearly not a distinction I will make due to the absurd arbitrariness of it.
I already made the distinctions:
"What's the difference between entrusting American Military with special killing jobs and entrusting Nazi Military with special killing jobs?"
The question I posed is clearly rhetorical: the difference is in the label, only. Breaking down distinctions after that are clearly superfluous to the actual point. You can find many differences, as well between identical twins (Nazi expirement subject reference win?). To do so is to miss the point on purpose just to act as a contrarian.
"Man, you're just like your brother: you both burp after eating pizza."
"NAY! I am a female with breasts and a vagina. I also like beaches and he doesn't!"
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Even if we assume snipers only ever kill innocent people in most moral systems killing two million innocent children is worse than killing fewer than two million non-children, though I've never asked a Mormon about it before.
So now you're arguing from a moral approach? That clearly falls into the trap of moral relativism. Killing citizens, in another country, on their own land, is somehow less morally wrong than a government sanctioned killing of its own "citizens"?
The answer: no, they are both killing people that are judged by a government to be "worthy of death". Arguing a case of numbers is non sequitur to the actual point being discussed: people are being systemically killed through a government sanctioned process. The people carrying out those orders thee SS or US Snipers. The similarity was NOT drawn by Shaky or myself: it was drawn by the US Snipers, themselves, by parading the SS flag.
Lastly, the Jews were NOT citizens. They were relegated to "less than human" and it was legal to kill them "like pigs". Sounds eerily familiar to the same types of attitudes some US military personnel express towards those "muzzie terrorists", doesn't it?
And to address your personal jab (careful with those) about "Mormons", the answer is, "it's all wrong" and we should always avoid killing if at all possible. Even in situations where you are being slain in your own house, you may be doing the most correct thing by "turning the other cheek" (sounds familiar, eh?):
"...when I review the performance of this people in comparison with what is expected, I am appalled and frightened.
...
We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel—ships, planes, missiles, fortifications—and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan’s counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching..."
-Spencer W. Kimball
Originally posted by dadudemon
I
But we could go back to the main point about SS and US Snipers, too.
uhuh
no, the main point (thread) was about u.s. snipers flying an ss flag for a photo. then shaky made his point that the s.s. are like the snipers because they both kill people. he was challenged by others, including myself, of quibbling in order to equate the ss to the marine snipers ....and then we hopped on the ddm rollercoaster.
in hindsight, i think it was meant to troll obnoxiously patriotic american tea party people...which is fine by me. ill be mindful to avoid shaky's critter traps next time.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The SS was given the mission of wiping out millions of civilians. Snipers are given the mission of acting as scouts and of killing people who are trying to kill their allies (only snipers in anime get body counts into the millions). The Nazis used snipers too, Nazi snipers were also not as bad as the Holocaust.
If you'd like, we can compare it to the number of Iraqi citizens we killed. Let's play some arbitrary moral comparisons for a bit: SS killed lots of Jews, which were no longer citizens of Germany, mostly in Germany. The US has killed lots of actual citizens (legally) by invading a sovereign nation and doing so. Compare: 3rd Reich killed many mnay "un-citizenized" people mostly in their own country. The US killed many citizens on their own land (and even in their own homes). It is difficult to comprehend the arbitrary distinction you're wanting to make. What...because the 3rd Reich was more successful at it and had less rules to go by, they are magically worse? Here's some of the atrocities we have committed against the Iraqi people:
1. Rape: Check.
2. Torture: Check check check.
3. Murder by both US and International definitions during wartime: Check.
4. Kidnapping by international and US law: check check check.
5. Crimes against humanity: check.
6. Savage killing and maiming of enemy combatants: Check (did you hear or read about the scalping shit and finger collecting shit some of the US Soldiers were doing to the Iraqi insurgents?).
7. Forced Labor: check.
8. Looting: Check
9. Mass Killings of Civilians: check.
10. Execution of PoWs: check (holy shit, I didn't know we did this: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...d-to-death.html )
And probably some other shit I can't think off off the top of my head.
Sure, the list isn't nearly as long and as appalling as what the SS did, but it's still fairly disgusting. I'm sure you would agree. Drawing arbitrary lines in the sand, especially when the snipers themselves made the comparison of themselves to the SS, is not really relevant. Of course, this is my opinion. I just disagree with the fact that P...I mean focus4chumps was "calling out" Shaky on his apt comparison.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
no, the main point (thread) was about u.s. snipers flying an ss flag for a photo. then shaky made his point that the s.s. are like the snipers because they both kill people. he was challenged by others, including myself, of quibbling in order to equate the ss to the marine snipers ....and then we hopped on the ddm rollercoaster.in hindsight, i think it was meant to troll obnoxiously patriotic american tea party people...which is fine by me. ill be mindful to avoid shaky's critter traps next time.
I am sorry, but I fail to see how what you're typing has any sort of contradiction to the very brief portion you quoted (you can't open with "no" and then not really contradict the portion you quoted).
Also, I would reword your post to say:
"Yes, the main point of the thread was about U.S. snipers flying an SS flag for a photo. Then Shaky made his point that the S.S. are like the snipers because they both systematically and coldly kill/ed people under the direction of their governments. He was trolled by me because I am high* and bored...and then dadudemon pointed out why Shaky's comparison was fairly apt."
*This is something he admitted to, earlier tonight, on another internet forum. It's not a personal shot.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Killing citizens, in another country, on their own land, is somehow less morally wrong than a government sanctioned killing of its own "citizens"?
Yes.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Arguing a case of numbers is non sequitur to the actual point being discussed: people are being systemically killed through a government sanctioned process.
If numbers are irrelevant then you're actually, literally saying that a sniper shooting someone is the same as the entire Holocaust. Of course you'll cry "strawman" now because you didn't think that argument through but aren't mature enough to accept the fact that your often say really stupid things. Ignoring your inevitable histrionics will be the highlight of my day.
The actual point being discussed came from Skaya in the form that:
Snipers kill people.
The SS killed people.
This similarity is an utterly meaningless one (except for people who think one murder is morally equivalent to the Holocaust) insisting on it like it means something is classic trolling. The issue with the SS is not "they killed people" it is "they slaughtered millions."
We can also observe:
The SS eats food.
You eat food.
YOU ARE SIMILAR TO NAZIS!
Originally posted by focus4chumps
are we approaching the part where you really flip out or is that the core of your closing argument?
Spoiler:
Careful about getting too personal, now.
Did that even make sense to you when you typed out your "come-back"?
And just because you're raging because the "idiot" has destroyed your trolling fun, yet again, doesn't mean that the "idiot" is also raging.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Did that even make sense to you when you typed out your "come-back"?Careful about getting too personal, now. And just because you're raging because the "idiot" has destroyed your trolling fun, yet again, doesn't mean that the "idiot" is also raging.
wow man you need to relax. 🙁
i said absolutely nothing personal, but it seems you want to. id hate to see you get in trouble so maybe we should just drop whatever it is you're on about.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes.
Originally posted by dadudemon
... absurd arbitrariness...
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If numbers are irrelevant then you're actually, literally saying that a sniper shooting someone is the same as the entire Holocaust.
Originally posted by dadudemon
... absurd arbitrariness...
and:
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
strawman
Now why is it a strawman?
Of course, you didn't consider our reply when you said: "literally saying that a sniper shooting someone is the same as the entire Holocaust" because at no point is any of my argument ever about a single instance of only one sniper kill nor can it be logically boiled down to that. The absolute worst silly and illogical conclusion you could make (without deviating into absurd strawman arguments which you do every single time to me for some reason) is saying that I can only boil it down to a single unit of Snipers in the US Army. But you probably DID think of that (because, despite our arguments, you are a smart guy and there's no denying that) but realized that even then, it the comparison between that unit and the SS still works just fine. 🙂
So what do you have left? Of course, argue past the point of "absurd" or "not absurd" because the only way to make your point is to try and boil my point down into yet another absurd strawman argument.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Of course you'll cry "strawman" now because you didn't think that argument through but aren't mature enough to accept the fact that your often say really stupid things. Ignoring your inevitable histrionics will be the highlight of my day.
Dude...you have lost it entirely, at this point. I will note that you whined to the mods when I called you out on your bullshit and I got in trouble. I will now play your silly troll games and report you, as well, for taking personal shots two posts in a row.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The actual point being discussed came from Skaya in the form that:
Snipers kill people.
The SS killed people.
Wrong:
Originally posted by dadudemon
...Shaky made his point that the S.S. are like the snipers because they both systematically and coldly kill/ed people under the direction of their governments...
But it is easy to see why you've gone off the deep-end, in yet another conversation with me: you actually believe what you say is correct.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
This similarity is an utterly meaningless one
EXACTLY! 👆
That's why you should stop using strawman logical fallacies for pretty much all of your arguments. They add nothing and just make you a troll.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
insisting on it like it means something is classic trolling.
No, trolling is "strawmanning" someone's point to call that person out like a "fool" to "put him in his internet place". Me clearing up that he cleary wasn't wrong in his comparison doesn't even come close to trolling.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The issue with the SS is not "they killed people" it is "they slaughtered millions."
The issue with the US Snipers is not that "they killed people", it is "they coldy kill people and compare that to the SS's exploits."
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
We can also observe:
The SS eats food.
You eat food.YOU ARE SIMILAR TO NAZIS!
Originally posted by dadudemon
...do you think that government sponsored and directed killers that systematically execute people are common enough to make clothing comparisons? Do you see why your comparison with "food" is silly whereas his comparison is fairly spot-on? Here the point is, again: they are both "government sponsored and directed killers that systematically execute/d people".That's a very specific job and many states throughout history have had their own forms of SS. AKA, specially trained and trusted military forces that carry out sensitive missions that often entail covert and overt executions.
Pretending that anyone else is not like the SS, in that regard, is rather lame. The SS were not even original in their "objectives." They are just more recent and more memorable due to the atrocities associated with the 3rd Reich. Every modern military power has their "SS": unless you live under a rock.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Say, if Buddhists are trying to reclaim the Swastika from Hitler how do we know these snipers aren't all followers of turn of the century German mysticism who are trying to reclaim the Futhark runes from him?
You actually make a good point.
The argument could be made both ways, actually:
The inspector general at I Marine Expeditionary Force at Pendleton was made aware of the “SS” flag photograph in November, said Capt. Gregory Wolf, a spokesman at Marine Corps headquarters. The Marines involved were ordered to stop using the logo. Marine officials at the Pentagon declined to comment on whether the Marines faced any discipline, saying the issue was handled on the unit level at Pendleton.A Marine official, speaking on background due to the sensitivity of the issue, said the Corps’ leadership was not aware of the SS logo’s use until it came to their attention late last year.
“We don’t believe these Marine Corps snipers had a historical appreciation for what this symbol meant,” the official said. “As soon as leadership was made aware of it, they took action at the unit level and then passed that information throughout the sniper community and to those snipers serving in Afghanistan.”
That seems possible, said Allen Falk, national commander of the Jewish War Veterans of the United States of America.
“We believe that these young men likely did not understand the significance of this symbol, and we call on the Marine Corps to increase education on American history,” he said. “This issue goes beyond one of racism or anti-Semitism. Our fellow Americans fought and died to stop the Nazis, and it is shameful for any member of the military to display the symbols of Nazi Germany.”
The Corps has addressed the use of the SS logo before, however. A PowerPoint presentation posted on a Marine Corps website said it should not be used in any tattoos. The logo was used by German special police during World War II and is still used by neo-Nazis and graffiti to characterize anti-Semitism, white supremacy and facism, according to the presentation.
The MRFF said Thursday in a letter sent to Commandant Gen. Jim Amos, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and other top Pentagon officials that it was contacted by 45 active-duty Marines concerned about the photographs.
“The implication of these photographs, if true, should be readily apparent,” the letter said. “If the use of the Nazi insignia has been, in any way, condoned or tolerated by the Marine Corp.[sic], the implications are abhorrent to everything for which our country is fighting and the constitutional principles for which it stands.”
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/02/marine-scout-snipers-nazi-ss-logo-020912/
Bold emphasis my own. I see two positions presented in that article:
1. They didn't understand the implications of using that symbol and stopped using when ordered.
2. They did understand the implications of using the symbol because they had to view a powerpoint on the inappropriate use of Nazi symbols...but they stopped using it after ordered.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
wow man you need to relax. 🙁i said absolutely nothing personal, but it seems you want to. id hate to see you get in trouble so maybe we should just drop whatever it is you're on about.
What? How are you on topic and how was your reply relevant to what I said?
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls so I'll take you reply via PM.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You chastise a group for wiping people out, then turn around and recommend that a group be wiped out. Regardless of any actual crime or sin committed, mere association is enough to sentence them to death.Oh excuse me, I have to go---my pot's calling the kettle black again. Page me the next time someone else is condemned for standing in front of a flag without a shred of exposition or context. It's not like they deserve the benefit of the doubt or anything, a chance to explain themselves. Freedom of speech/expression, innocent-until-proven-guilty, fair trial. That'd be democracy, and rational people withholding judgement, sentence, and execution until all facts are known, instead of looking at one still frame and making up your mind. But f*ck that! No sir, not in America. America don't allow no such thing. Neither did the Nazis or their SS goons. Not that that has anything to do with an American flag above a Nazi one. No sir.
Oh no, I'm advocating intolerance against the intolerant. Freedom of speech stops at incitements to violence, panic, and murder. Shortsighted US courts have somehow failed to equate hate speech with these so we haven't adopted the double standard that the rest of the western world has in regards to racist and far-right ideologies. So we get assholes in our military learning tactics to use on the streets at home and selling weapons to their patriot pals. This double standard exists for a reason. Communist movements are easy, their usually external. Fascist movements are often internal and like a cancer use liberal democracy and capitalism against themselves.
Originally posted by Robtard
I'm not overly concerned that (or if) they're Nazis, what they do in their own time is none of my concern, but they should be kicked out of the military for posing in their US uniforms and clearly displaying and glorifying a flag/symbol that contradicts US military ideals.
Why should one be kicked out of the military and forever black listed for demonstrating a peaceful act of protest or a silly prank stunt? These men are made of sterner stuff. There ideals and moral code is probably much more profound than yours ever will be. The mental fortitude it requires to do what these men do is unique. Why would you jump so quickly to assume their motive behind this picture was so harsh? Are you really that quick to throw your protectors under the bus before exercising the act of wondering what their side of the story is? The most these men deserve is a reprimand.
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Oh no, I'm advocating intolerance against the intolerant. Freedom of speech stops at incitements to violence, panic, and murder. Shortsighted US courts have somehow failed to equate hate speech with these so we haven't adopted the double standard that the rest of the western world has in regards to racist and far-right ideologies. So we get assholes in our military learning tactics to use on the streets at home and selling weapons to their patriot pals. This double standard exists for a reason. Communist movements are easy, their usually external. Fascist movements are often internal and like a cancer use liberal democracy and capitalism against themselves.
Also all fascist movements start with people being intolerant to people they don't like. Until they actually break a law there's no reason to be as harsh to them as you would like.
Like, do you not realize that you sound like a Fascist right now?