Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Daredevil has straight up stated Capts faster then he is. The fact you think Daredevil faster let a lone much faster, show syou have no business even in this debate.
Daredevil notices a sniper round by the time we see it in the reflection of the glasses of a man he is talking to and is still fast enough to dodge it. A sniper round from a few feet away. Daredevil reacts to bullets after they have been fired, thinks about them in mid-air, and bats them back at their shooters with a billy club. For all that he's cracked up to be, Cap simply doesn't do stuff that high-end.
There's a reason not to blindly accept what one character claims about another as evidence. Show me some clear, consistent examples of Cap doing what DD does and I'll concede that he has the reflexes to fight a PIS-less Danny.
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Everytime? They fought twice. once before Wolveirne even ahd a healing factor written into his character, and Danny had to BFR him.
Danny didn't have to BFR him. He didn't even mean to; he just forgot where the window was. And a healing factor wouldn't change the fact that Logan was unable to land an attack on Danny, who smacked him all around the room.
The other time, Wolverine won a sparing match handily, and IF start making excuses.
Oh please. A friendly sparring match in the yard is not a fight and both men admitted they were holding back.
I think I remember another actual fight, but permit me to withdraw my "every time" comment until I can try to find it. Anyway, the one time we can prove they fought, Danny made him look like a chump without really trying.
Funny how you yell at other about ignoring context and then do the same shit yourself. Wolverine had no define history or even powers at the time of the fight. Yet I love how you leave this part out.
It wasn't intentional; I just didn't know. Still, he had claws, was an X-Man, and he fought. Was he in the habit of being humiliated by weaker people at the time, or something?
Originally posted by Daredevil1
LOL its not just a claim cap ran past a running daredevil and made him look like a statue.
Ok, where? I've asked for examples like this, so why am I only hearing one by page 3? This alone isn't enough to be "consistent" but it's a good start if it holds up. Anyone got a scan or an issue number?
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Exactly. Cap has been stated to be the next step in human evolution.
On a side note, why is this even coming up? What difference does it make that a character is "stated" to be something? I called it narrative hyperbole because it's completely subjective. Sure, he may be somebody's idea of the next step in human evolution, but whose? Certainly experts on the subject like Magneto, the High Evolutionary or the Celestials would laugh hysterically at that phrasing.
That's why I judge characters on the idea that their best consistent feats indicate their fullest capability, throwing out showings that are inexplicably low or high and ignoring narrative statements and dialogue.
Dream Stuff makes some good points. But almost all street level characters are bullet timers, it stopped being a big deal awhile ago. Some characters have better bullet feats than others, but at the same time are constantly shown to be slower than them. Heck Typhoid Mary has a better bullet feat than say Deadpool. Is she faster? Hell no. As for Cap he has some feats of reacting to bullets after they're fired and every time he fights other MA streets he's shown to be in the same ballpark. So it's safe to say he is.
Originally posted by SamZED
Dream Stuff makes some good points. But almost all street level characters are bullet timers, it stopped being a big deal awhile ago. Some characters have better bullet feats than others, but at the same time are constantly shown to be slower than them. Heck Typhoid Mary has a better bullet feat than say Deadpool. Is she faster? Hell no. As for Cap he has some feats of reacting to bullets after they're fired and every time he fights other MA streets he's shown to be in the same ballpark. So it's safe to say he is.
A) Thank you.
B) So, we're just giving bullet-time reflexes away now? Anyone who keeps up with a bullet timer in combat must be a bullet-timer by extension despite never explicitly showing that kind of ability? Shall we also assume that every strong monster that beats on Superman is also as fast as he is?
C) Isn't Typhoid Mary faster than Deadpool?
D) Still waiting for Cap feats. Scans or issue/page numbers. I wouldn't be mad if Cap is a bullet-timer; I'd be happy to know beyond a few people's conjecture.
Since things seem to be going in circles, I'm going to quit until further evidence is brought to the table. Let me just make a closing argument.
Look, it makes sense that Cap will fare well in a fight against Iron Fist in an actual comic: he's an icon; they'd almost never fight each other seriously; and writers love to proceed as if any two characters have the same speed when fighting. That's why the PIS rule in your board's rulebook was invented, right? Because this sort of thing happens all the time.
But when you look at what they have done over and over for many years, few non-powered street levelers have the reflexes to see and react to bullets in-flight (Karate Kid, Shang Chi, Cass Cain, and Daredevil are the first to mind) and their reflexes are thus a very important part of their powersets.
Danny feats: He dodges bullets in flight. He parries them away. He catches them. He parries 40 fletches automatically fired at close range. He practically walks straight toward gunmen on several occasions because, unlike peak humans, he doesn't need to bother with running, jumping and flipping to avoid bullets. He lets them empty their magazines so they can stand there looking confused about how a human can be that fast, then he knocks them out. He is that fast and always has been.
And Danny is not a street leveler. He HAS a hax superpower that amps aspects of his already-peak human body to metahuman levels. His speed is solidly mid-tier based on many high showings, and his striking power is quite a bit greater than that. With PIS off, he's a suitable match up for someone like Spider-Man, not a couple of streets. You want to see a realistic fight in comics? Black Panther is generally considered pretty high on the street leveler totem pole... ask him how he fared in hand-to-hand against even a dumb, bloodlusted Danny.
That's it. Rant over.
EDIT: Sorry for the essay.
Obviously to me you don't know much about Cap though as most fans have been correcting you on him. The fact that we have to point out his consistent feats of racing past DD like he's a breeze.
Or playing in a room full of laser beams under zero gravity.
Or moving about so fast that a shooter was shooting him in the exact spot that he was, despite Steve being already around him.
To the point that he has even once batted a bullet back with his shield Daredevil style.(it actually might be a laser beam making it more impressive)
I mean seriously and you know Steve's consistent feats.
Have you even seen his match up with classic Danny since your impressed with classic Danny's hand speed against the fletchetes. Steve caught easily Danny's hand speed.
Maybe you just look at all of Steve's lows me thinks. You got to look at his consistency from everything and put it together. His feats/ direct comparisons/power level gauge. It all goes hand and hand.
Originally posted by Dream Stuff[B]And Danny is not a street leveler.
He HAS a hax superpower that amps aspects of his already-peak human body to metahuman levels. [/B]
Exactly. You asked why we brought up that Steve is the next step in human evolution. Its as important as bringing up that Danny is dragon enhanced.
Originally posted by Dream Stuff
No, its his consistent portrayal. Spider-Man's been shot before, too. Spider-Man's been hit by slow enemies before. Are you going to argue that he isn't that fast anymore?
really? so you must have loads of scans to back it up? you're using your single feat to highball. we don't use single scans here. we look at both combat feats and regular feats as well as history to form a general impression of the character. in general, cap and fist are peers in speed, and history would tell us cap would ABSOLUTELY and unequivocally be hitting fist in a battle between them. that is NOT PIS, that is consistent with 40+ years of comics.
If you're referring to when the two fought in Avengers mansion, surely there's some important bits of context that you're leaving out. Perhaps you want to mention the fact that Danny was injured from fighting the freaking Wrecking Crew right before it (he was surprised to still be alive)? Or the fact that Danny was trying not to fight, while Cap wanted to fight very badly because he thought Danny killed Jarvis? Or the fact that even Cap admitted that Danny was holding back?
at one point danny said he would make him understand even if he had to beat him senseless to do it. cap also showed he could easily roll with one of danny's punches and even CAUGHT danny's punch when danny tried a SNEAK attack. even danny was shocked:
http://imageshack.us/f/809/mansion07.jpg/
all of that 'context' you say was left out is meaningless. danny couldn't even hit cap with a surprise attack.
Even though he smacks logan around like a beach ball every time they ever really fight? Where are you getting this?
The first time they fought, Danny was already exhausted and Logan surprised him. Logan never landed a single blow.
that early version of logan has been addressed--his h2h skills have since become a far larger focus. their sparring match was quite telling imo--logan handled him quite easily in straight skill. logan has also easily dealt with shang chi and has done much better against cap. we can also compare their battles against a true superhuman in spiderman. cap did FAR better than IF against spidey. cap made spidey look like a child. or, in spidey's own words, a chump.
http://imageshack.us/f/372/spc6hl9.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/187/spc8wu5.jpg/
In comic books, peak humans can do some pretty amazing things. Batman can snap a tree in half with a sidekick and support 2000 pounds over his head and get up after being punched through concrete walls and move so fast normal people have trouble following with their eyes. It isn't a slight to say someone is peak human.
where you get this certainty that cap is peak human, i really have no idea. he's been depicted well above peak human for most of his career. he has caught launched torpedoes, shattered steel, held up a portion of a ckyscraper (likely at least cl10) thrown his shield with force enough to outrace a missile and sever a truck in half. he consistently moves at blur speeds, has taken punches from a po'd namor. even his perception is superhuman. note how she says he DODGES BULLETS, and his simple explanation:
http://imageshack.us/f/407/capdamanta2.jpg/
and he clearly can dodge bullets. we see the gun fired THEN he not only dodges but throws his shield. and winter solider is enormously skilled in his own right....
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3846/ca14016zs1.jpg
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6166/ca14017oe3.jpg
the thing with cap is he deflects everything with his shield. hence, we don't see him dodging bullets like dd for instance. like we don't see superman. he doesn't have to. but he's deflected everything from multiple machine guns to multiple laser fire. he is every bit (and likely more) as fast with his shield as dd is with his club. there are dozens of feats of the type i posted. cap is WELL above peak human. shield even labelled him ENHANCED human at one point. IF fist has a speed edge, it is MINIMAL. to say they are 'tiers' apart is simple ignorance.
But neither he nor Cap will do stuff like this:
one scan=/=consistent portrayal. where are all the corroborating scans that prove this isn't PIS?
Originally posted by Dream StuffDanny didn't have to BFR him. He didn't even mean to; he just forgot where the window was.
Originally posted by Dream Stuff
And a healing factor wouldn't change the fact that Logan was unable to land an attack on Danny, who smacked him all around the room.
And Wolverine almost killed an IF who beat Danny ass into the ground. Wolverine has had no trouble fight Iron Fist or any chi amper for that matter.
Originally posted by Dream Stuff
Oh please. A friendly sparring match in the yard is not a fight and both men admitted they were holding back.
Originally posted by Dream Stuff
I think I remember another actual fight, but permit me to withdraw my "every time" comment until I can try to find it. Anyway, the one time we can prove they fought, Danny made him look like a chump without really trying.
Wolverine fought another Iron Fist who had kicked Danny ass. Wolverine then proceeded to almost kill the other iron fist by Danny on admission.
Originally posted by Dream Stuff
It wasn't intentional; I just didn't know. Still, he had claws, was an X-Man, and he fought. Was he in the habit of being humiliated by weaker people at the time, or something?
He dident have a defined power set at that point. He had no back story. Which is huge, Wolverine was missing any of his MA skills and 100 years of experience. Those did not get put into his character untill his first mini. Wolverine powers were a lot different during his inception and first bunch a years in the x-men comics.
Ok, since no one was giving me feats, I actually flipped through about 20 pages of respect thread.
I admit, I was wrong about Cap. He is stronger than I thought, more durable than I thought, and indeed faster than I thought. He is above peak-human, and I'm glad to finally have evidence to know that.
That said, of all the speed feats I saw (all of them, save a few that wouldn't load), he only has one that is clearly bullet-dodging and not aim dodging. That is the single bullet he dodged from winter soldier. Nearly all of the other feats called "bullet dodging" by the people who put them up were the same "jump, tumble and outrun" that every other decent street does every issue. A lot of them were mitigated by other factors that the posters ignored. A few of them were high end enough that I would accept calling him a low-end bullet-timer, if that would settle the dispute.
He also has one of the most amazing jobber auras I've ever seen. As impressive as his strength feats are, he's constantly knocking out people who normally take shots from guys with much, much better feats.
In PISless fight, there's still no arguing that he has fewer and less impressive high-end speed feats than Danny and doesn't hit nearly as hard.
I'll address other questions directed at me soon.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Obviously to me you don't know much about Cap though as most fans have been correcting you on him. The fact that we have to point out his consistent feats of racing past DD like he's a breeze.
People keep mentioning this. Why, after I asked many times, did no one mention that it was in Frank Miller's "Born Again"? Now I can actually see it instead of relying on a description from some stranger.
Or playing in a room full of laser beams under zero gravity.
I'm glad you brought this up again, because I want to address the issue of comic book lasers in general. They are NOT as fast as real lasers. If they were, every street levelers who dodges one would have lightspeed reflexes. In fact, we have no idea how fast they are. Unlike a bullet, its completely unquantifiable.
Or moving about so fast that a shooter was shooting him in the exact spot that he was, despite Steve being already around him.
I saw a couple of feats like this. None of them were as impressive as this sounds without context. In one, the shooter's eyes were literally closed as he unloaded.
Steve caught easily Danny's hand speed.
I already explained the context of that. Danny was so wounded from fighting the Wrecking Crew shortly before that he thought himself lucky to be alive. Also, both he and Cap admitted that Danny was holding back and Cap was not.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Exactly. You asked why we brought up that Steve is the next step in human evolution. Its as important as bringing up that Danny is dragon enhanced.
This turned out to be a quote from Brubaker, one of the many, many people who have written Cap over the years. It is not a canonical "fact" or feat in any sense of the words.
He was smart enough to chase after the speedster that is BP in a car. And both did very well against each other.
BP landed a few shots which failed to harm Danny in any way. Meanwhile, Danny rained down countless blows on BP that proved mostly unable to even block. BP's vibranium suit got torn to shreds and he passed out. If it wasn't for the vibranium suit or the convenient tech he used to fix Danny, BP would have died a dozen times over.
